The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[CadyandZoe]

So, even though this is a thread made specifically to refute pretrib, and you say you don't believe in pretrib, you are not here to refute pretrib and don't care if the pretribs here know what you believe or not. How interesting! LOL! Such a joke.

I came here to dispute WPM's assumptions, which are not true and have no bearing on the subject.

I don't mean that you have never tried to back up what you say with scripture. I mean that you have tried and have failed.

I didn't fail to prove my point; I failed to convince you. Try to avoid speaking for other people.

Do you have anything new to bring to the table since you last failed to provide any convincing arguments to support your view?

Do you?

I'm here mainly to refute pretrib. Why did you pick this thread, of all threads, to debate me on my Amil view?

The answer is obvious. Your refutation is based on your Amil presuppositions.

Oh, I know what is going on here. You are playing games.

You can't be more wrong.

You have ridiculously decided that this was the best place for you to debate Amils in a thread where we are debating pretribs.

So, now you admit that you are debating pretribs rather than teaching lurkers.

And you say yourself you are not a pretrib. What a joke. You are trying to create a circus and distract from what this thread is about.

I understand. No one likes it when their assumptions are challenged. This certainly accounts for your attitude in this post.

Did you just ignore when I said I was on a forum just like this before which showed how many people were there (probably using IP tracking) but not signed in? I'm not just making that up. I assume the same is the case on this forum. If you don't want to believe that, that is not my problem.

Really? Ironically, you have made it your problem.

I already know what is happening here and told you above. What is about to happen here is me making a few very noticeable posts reminding everyone of what a fraud you are because of your denial of the deity of Jesus Christ. So, keep it up if that's what you want.

Yes, I deny the deity of Christ for several reasons. I defended my beliefs on this forum many years ago, but I haven't discussed them since. If the board or the forum wishes me to discuss the subject further I will.

In the meantime, rather than discussing your argument's lack of substance, you have chosen to attack me personally. Ad hominem attacks are often used to divert attention from the actual issue and undermine your opponent's credibility. I'm not surprised that WPM takes this course, but I expect more from you, since you are a reasonable man with good ideas.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Lazarus was brought back to life, but the word "resurrect" does not appear in the account.

Dorcas was brought back to life, but the word "resurrect" does not appear in the account.

Well, the word resurrection appears in John 11:24-25

 

[CadyandZoe]

A natural Carnal Mind can NOT perceive the depth of Gods truth, Gods understanding as those things ARE SPIRIT.

The term "carnal mind" is found in the KJV translation of the Bible but the meaning is "mind set on the flesh" which sounds different than a "carnal mind."

Romans 8 elaborates…and here is a blip.

Romans 8:
[6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Even here, the KJV translation conveys ideas that Paul didn't mean. Paul is taking about the mind SET ON the flesh contrasted with the mind SET ON the spirit.

"What occupies the mind set on the flesh, if not ancestry, family line, pedigree, gender, class, social, and economic status? What preoccupies the mind set on the spirit, if not faith, loyalty, good character, uprightness, self-control, love, grace, kindness, and similar values?"

Once the spirit of man is born again…the man himself has control over his MIND…he himself can made his own mind, its thoughts, sub-servant to his born again hearts thoughts…

Yes, I agree with that. Paul certainly talks about being led by the Spirit.

Hope this helps.

Yes, thanks for the discussion.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Getting bogged down over semantics like this is a waste of time. My approach to this is a bit different than his in that I believe the first resurrection specifically refers to Christ's resurrection since other scripture explicitly refers to His resurrection as being the first (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5). Regardless, he and I agree that the way in which someone has part in the first resurrection is by spiritually identifying with Christ's death and resurrection by being spiritually saved and going from being spiritually dead in sins to spiritually alive in Christ.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So, the second death is being cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14-15). I believe when Paul says in Romans 6:23 that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life, he is contrasting two different eternal destinies there. So, I believe he is talking about the second death there. The wages of unforgiven and uncovered sin is the eternal second death, but the gift of God that comes by grace through faith is eternal life.

With that said, at what point can we say that the second death has no power over someone? Not until they are bodily resurrected? No. As I showed, the second death has no power over those who are saved NOW. It has no power over the souls of the dead in Christ NOW. So, what does that tell you about the timing of Revelation 20:6? And, the fact that John wrote in John 1:5-6 that Jesus, the ruler of the kings of the earth, HAS MADE believers "priests unto God and his Father". Again, that points to Revelation 20:6 as being a current reality. Please address this.

I take a more straightforward approach to Revelation 20, wherein John depicts two resurrections of the dead. In the passage below, please take a look at the two different mentions of people coming back to life and the fact that each occasion when a group of people comes back to life is separated by a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4-5

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life [first resurrection] and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life [second resurrection] until the thousand years were completed.​

​

Some of the dead came back to life in verse 4, the rest of humanity came back to life in verse 5.

 

[jeffweeder]

I take a more straightforward approach to Revelation 20, wherein John depicts two resurrections of the dead.

John also depicts two resurrections here...,


Chap 5
25 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, a time is coming and is [here] now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.

26 For just as the Father has life in Himself [and is self-existent], even so He has given to the Son to have life in Himself [and be self-existent]. 27 And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is a Son of Man [sinless humanity, qualifying Him to sit in judgment over mankind].

28 Do not be surprised at this; for a time is coming when all those who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and they will come out—those who did good things [will come out] to a resurrection of [new] life, but those who did evil things [will come out] to a resurrection of judgment [that is, to be sentenced].

It would be absurd to think that John is contradicting himself right?

 

[The Light]

Because I am pointing out specifically is in the bible regarding Jesus's Second Coming, Satan being cast into the bottomless pit prison, and Satan not being released until the thousand years are over.



Jesus's Second Coming is in Revelation 19:11-21. Agree or disagree ?

Disagree. The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. Jesus remains in the clouds.

Rev 19 is when Jesus returns with the armies of heaven. Then the second advent occurs.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Would you mind quoting the chapter and verse?

Sure, I don't mind. We are told about two distinct comings of the Lord: 1) coming to meet his followers in the air, and 2) coming to rule over the nations.

First, Jesus will come on the clouds and at that time, the Father will grant him dominion over all the nations, and his followers will meet him there in the clouds.

Coming in the clouds of heaven:

Matthew 24:29-31

But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET BLAST, and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His [x]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.​

Matthew 25:31-33

But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left.​

In the first instance, the son of man appears in the clouds of the sky. In the second instance, he sits on a throne to rule over the nations. I suppose one could argue that these represent two aspects of the Second Coming. I have no problem with that.

 

[Taken]

I take a more straightforward approach to Revelation 20, wherein John depicts two resurrections of the dead. In the passage below, please take a look at the two different mentions of people coming back to life and the fact that each occasion when a group of people comes back to life is separated by a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4-5

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life [first resurrection] and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life [second resurrection] until the thousand years were completed.​

​

Some of the dead came back to life in verse 4, the rest of humanity came back to life in verse 5.

Resurrections occurred in the OT, in the NT, and in circumstances today, whereby such individuals obviously were not mentioned in Scripture.

The Revealing of a First and Last (Second) Resurrections mentioned in Revelations IS Specific to MASS Resurrections, Applicable to ALL Human Bodies.

Point being…there have already been FIRST resurrections of “individuals” that has occurred.

Revelations Concludes dealing with the MASSIVE REMAINDER of DEAD BODY’S of ALL men, not yet Risen up.

Jesus was risen UP.
The 144,000 were risen UP.
The Church will have been risen UP.
The Remainder…saved and unsaved shall be Risen UP.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[CadyandZoe]

You may as well talk to a telephone pole as to talk with these Bible torturers.
I never seen such Bible butchery in my entire life.
Jehovah witness hamster wheel Bible butchers come to mind.
SMH.

Topical discussions are real tricky because they involve an examination of multiple passages taken as a whole. I prefer to sit down with a group of people and discuss one book of the Bible at a time, taking it verse by verse, understanding the passage from within the immediate context.

Butchering the Bible, as you put it, is an "occupational hazard" of topical studies. I'm not suggesting that topical studies are bad. But there are hazards to avoid along the way. :)

 

[CadyandZoe]

Resurrections occurred in the OT, in the NT, and in circumstances today, whereby such individuals obviously were not mentioned in Scripture.

The Revealing of a First and Last (Second) Resurrections mentioned in Revelations IS Specific to MASS Resurrections, Applicable to ALL Human Bodies.

Point being…there have already been FIRST resurrections of “individuals” that has occurred.

Revelations Concludes dealing with the MASSIVE REMAINDER of DEAD BODY’S of ALL men, not yet Risen up.

Jesus was risen UP.
The 144,000 were risen UP.
The Church will have been risen UP.
The Remainder…saved and unsaved shall be Risen UP.

Glory to God,
Taken

Good points.

I think it's important to consider the case of Lazarus and others whom Jesus and the apostles brought back to life. These individuals were resurrected before Jesus, so why do passages such as Acts 26:23 say that Christ was the first to be raised from the dead? The distinction between Lazarus's resurrection and Jesus's is that Jesus was glorified, whereas Lazarus was not. Jesus was the first to experience glorification, which is a permanent transformation.

 

[jeffweeder]

Sure, I don't mind. We are told about two distinct comings of the Lord: 1) coming to meet his followers in the air, and 2) coming to rule over the nations.

First, Jesus will come on the clouds and at that time, the Father will grant him dominion over all the nations, and his followers will meet him there in the clouds.

Coming in the clouds of heaven:

Matthew 24:29-31

But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET BLAST, and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His [x]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.​

Matthew 25:31-33

But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left.​

In the first instance, the son of man appears in the clouds of the sky. In the second instance, he sits on a throne to rule over the nations. I suppose one could argue that these represent two aspects of the Second Coming. I have no problem with that.

Thanks.

In both instances the elect are gathered to him (to his right) from all nations.
The rest from all nations mourn as they end up on his left.

Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes (nations) of the earth will mourn over Him [realizing their sin and guilt, and anticipating the coming wrath]. So it is to be. Amen.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, “You have [in fact] said it; but more than that I tell you [regardless of what you do with Me now], in the future you will see [Me revealed as] the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

They all see him on the throne of glory when he comes on the clouds.

 

[Douggg]

Disagree. The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. Jesus remains in the clouds.

Rev 19 is when Jesus returns with the armies of heaven. Then the second advent occurs.

The word "advent" does not appear in the bible.

Matthew 24:

30a And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
(sixth seal event)

30b and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(Revelation 11-21, Jesus's Second Coming)

 

[CadyandZoe]

Thanks.

In both instances the elect are gathered to him (to his right) from all nations.
The rest from all nations mourn as they end up on his left.

True, but what would it mean for him to rule over all the nations IF, the judgment took place right away?

Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes (nations) of the earth will mourn over Him [realizing their sin and guilt, and anticipating the coming wrath]. So it is to be. Amen.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, “You have [in fact] said it; but more than that I tell you [regardless of what you do with Me now], in the future you will see [Me revealed as] the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

They all see him on the throne of glory when he comes on the clouds.

Yes. In Matthew 24, Jesus says that they will see the sign of the Son of Man, which is Jesus coming on the clouds. We know from Daniel 7, this includes the Son of Man receiving dominion over all the nations.

Daniel 7:14
And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

Daniel 7:27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’

The key phrase here, for our discussion, is "under the whole heaven," which refers to the entire planet. Yes?

 

[WPM]

I came here to dispute WPM's assumptions, which are not true and have no bearing on the subject.

I didn't fail to prove my point; I failed to convince you. Try to avoid speaking for other people.

Do you?

The answer is obvious. Your refutation is based on your Amil presuppositions.

You can't be more wrong.

So, now you admit that you are debating pretribs rather than teaching lurkers.

I understand. No one likes it when their assumptions are challenged. This certainly accounts for your attitude in this post.

Really? Ironically, you have made it your problem.

Yes, I deny the deity of Christ for several reasons. I defended my beliefs on this forum many years ago, but I haven't discussed them since. If the board or the forum wishes me to discuss the subject further I will.

In the meantime, rather than discussing your argument's lack of substance, you have chosen to attack me personally. Ad hominem attacks are often used to divert attention from the actual issue and undermine your opponent's credibility. I'm not surprised that WPM takes this course, but I expect more from you, since you are a reasonable man with good ideas.

Oh, ok, exposing your denial of the deity of Christ is ad hominem? Yea right! It is a fact. That makes you a heretic!

And, no, you have not exposed any errors in the Op re the absurdity of Pretrib logic.

Are you Pretrib? if not, what do you believe?

 

[WPM]

John also depicts two resurrections here...,


Chap 5
25 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, a time is coming and is [here] now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.

26 For just as the Father has life in Himself [and is self-existent], even so He has given to the Son to have life in Himself [and be self-existent]. 27 And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is a Son of Man [sinless humanity, qualifying Him to sit in judgment over mankind].

28 Do not be surprised at this; for a time is coming when all those who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and they will come out—those who did good things [will come out] to a resurrection of [new] life, but those who did evil things [will come out] to a resurrection of judgment [that is, to be sentenced].

It would be absurd to think that John is contradicting himself right?

Notice, no Pretrib or Premil will address this! I wonder why?

 

[WPM]

In Revelation 12:7-12, Satan is cast down to earth as the seventh trumpet third woe to the inhabiters of the earth having great wrath knowing his time is short - the time/times/half time of Revelation 12:17.

I already showed you what the Bible said about the third woe. You avoided it (once again). The passage you quoted does not mention the third woe.

It seems like in your estimation, any time the word "woe" comes up in Revelation it refers to the 3rd woe? I believe your confusion emanates from the fact that you view Revelation as a chronological book. That is the only way you can come to such an assumption.

I already gave you the context for the third wow and you simply ignored it. It is hard to engage with you when you do that.

Revelation 11:14-19: “The second woe is past (the great battle); and, behold, the third woe (the last trump – the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ) cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

The climactic Second coming is the 3rd woe! This is the end. This is the general judgment. This is when all rebellion is finally subjugated. Check it out. You miss how Revelation is written and parallels.

Revelation 12 takes us right back to the first advent. It shows us Christ "the man child" being caught up to rule and reign during this intra-Advent period.

 

[WPM]

So how can Satan currently be in the bottomless pit, if he is cast down to earth in Revelation 12:7-12 ?

Also, that Satan is not presently imprisoned in the bottomless pit is proved by....

1Perter5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

• Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
• Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
• Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
• Do you believe Satan literally has 7 heads and 7 necks?
• Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
• Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
• Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
• Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
• Can a prisoner in a prison have great wrath while in chains?
• Does imprisonment mean immobility?
• Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
• Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
• Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
• Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?

Jesus said in Matthew 16:18-19: “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

God has entrusted power and authority to the Church in this age that the devil cannot in any way deal with or thwart. As Christians the highest authority existing on this earth has been delegated to us. Jesus Christ has commissioned us to enforce His will on this corrupt planet. He has filled us with His power. He has anointed us with His authority. We possess divine authority. That is why we come in His name.

Darkness cannot handle the light. When light shines, darkness must go. As the Church of Jesus Christ spreads the good news (or light of the Gospel) throughout the world the devil is exposed for who he is: he is stupid, he is a fool, he is a loser.

We have power over Satan since the cross! If you are walking in obedience, the devil has no authority over you. But you have much power over him. Think about this we have power over Satan and all his demons! He cannot do as he pleases against the people of God. There is much Scripture that says we have power over him.

Because of Christ's defeat of Satan on the cross, we have complete authority over the enemy. He cannot do what he wants with us. We are protected by God and armed with real potent spiritual power. We merely have to submit to God, resist the devil and he must flee from us.

Some Christians respond, but what about 1 Peter 5:8? Let us read it: “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.” The very next verse 1 Peter 5:9 affirms, “whom resist stedfast in the faith.”

The true Church of Jesus Christ is a resistance movement. While Satan resists us, the Bible says we have power to resist him, and subjugate his purposes against us. We resist the lawlessness and evil encroachments of the devil around us.

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

This is incredible! You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original means to escape, flee away or vanish. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to possess spiritual territory.

 

[WPM]

I take a more straightforward approach to Revelation 20, wherein John depicts two resurrections of the dead. In the passage below, please take a look at the two different mentions of people coming back to life and the fact that each occasion when a group of people comes back to life is separated by a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4-5

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life [first resurrection] and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life [second resurrection] until the thousand years were completed.​

​

Some of the dead came back to life in verse 4, the rest of humanity came back to life in verse 5.

Premils avoid the most important resurrection to let their opinion fit. There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

 

[WPM]

Since you agree that Revelation 19:11-21 is Jesus's Second Coming, then why can't you see that Satan being imprisoned for 1000 years in Revelation 20 is after Jesus's Second Coming ?

Because Premillennialists reject the parallels in Revelation and fail to see the repeated symbolic references to the end-time spiritual battle between light and darkness you try to impute something into Revelation 20 that is unknown to the text itself, enjoys zero support elsewhere in Scripture, and is in actual conflict with the rest of the Book. The reality is: Satan's little season correlates with the different camera views and parallels that describe the gathering together of the wicked before Christ destroys the whole kingdom of darkness when He appears.

There is only one gathering for war at the end. This is the final throw of the kingdom of darkness before it is eternally destroyed. Satan mobilizes his forces for one final fling before the return of Christ on “that great day of God Almighty.” Revelation 16:13- depicts: “three unclean spirits … come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.” This is a joint effort from these 3. They supervise the end time assault upon the righteous and righteousness. They stir up the wicked to gather together for war.

We find in the second parallel in Revelation, as the parallel concludes, in Revelation 6:12-17: "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

The third parallel, the seven trumpets, which closely mirrors the aforementioned parallel (the seven vials) in each of its distinct parallels records in Revelation 9:1-7 records: "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months."

Revelation 9:14-15 continues, “Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.”

Here the same location is seen to be the symbolic source of the demonic gathering of the wicked for the final battle. This occurs just prior to the seventh or last trumpet, which is a record of the second coming and the end of the world.

The fifth parallel, the seven vials, which closely mirrors the aforementioned parallel (the seven trumpets) in each of its distinct parallels records in Revelation 9:1-7 records:

Revelation 16:12-21: “And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

"And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.”

Here we see a vivid record of Satan’s great concluding ‘devilish gathering’ just prior to the one final future coming of Christ. The seventh vial portrays an unmistakable description of the all-consummating second coming.

 

[WPM]

Since you agree that Revelation 19:11-21 is Jesus's Second Coming, then why can't you see that Satan being imprisoned for 1000 years in Revelation 20 is after Jesus's Second Coming ?

The sixth parallel

Revelation 19:11-21: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Again this is a picture of the final gathering of the wicked for destruction.

The other three parallels, not yet referred to, also strongly support this recapitulation viewpoint.

We can therefore safely assume that the battle between the wicked symbolically represented by “Gog and Magog” and the righteous “the camp of the saints” occurs in this present age, just prior to the second coming and the general resurrection / judgment.

The seventh parallel

Revelation 20:7-10: “And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.”