The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[WPM]

in fact of reality, The questions were precise, only requiring a precise one-two word answer. That did not occur.

I did! If you have any further follow-up questions please give.

 

[WPM]

You implying I added to Scripture is patently FALSE.

Your capability extends to criticizing Pre-trib believers without being able to recognize, acknowledge or comprehend PLAIN SIMPLE revealed Scripture.

You are obviously very touchy. I did not say that. But, if you want to take offense that is up to you.

 

[WPM]

3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."
You guys don't look up much that hurts your deal

It says they are RUINED as a woman in pain with a child
They are emotionally destroyed.( REMEMBER YOU HEARD THE CORRECT CONTEXT FROM REBUILDER. AND HE WILL CONTINUE CORRECTING YOUR ERROR)

It means utter and total destruction. Hello! Your fight is with the Scriptures. Now you're twisting the original Greek in order to support your false teaching.

2 Peter 3:3-13 supports this: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Unquestionably, the focus of this message is directed to the end-time-cynics who deny Christ, despise His Word and scorn the likelihood of His return. The near 2,000 years that have already elapsed since our Lord’s first Advent is used as a basis for their mocking. They use this supposed delay as an opportunity to propagate their foolishness. 2 Peter 3 makes clear, those that would consider this as an opportunity for scorn will be swiftly and assuredly caught in their own folly at His coming. Like the wicked locked outside the ark and the iniquitous left behind in Sodom, the end-time scoffers will be caught unexpected when the judgment arrives suddenly. These evildoers will be exposed when Christ returns and pours out His wrath upon them. That is the whole emphasis of this passage – the sudden and unanticipated destruction of the wicked at Christ’s return.

Peter warns these “last days” mockers that such a day will (1) catch them unexpected, and, (2) involve the immediate, complete and final judgment. He cites the total destruction of the unrighteous in Noah’s day as a picture and evidence of what will occur. 2 Peter 3:5-6 confirms: “For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.” As in Noah’s day, the wicked scoffers will be shocked when the day of the Lord overtakes them as a “thief in the night.” That seems to be the import of Peter’s argument. The fiery indignation described in this reading destroys the unrighteous and their distain at Christ’s appearing. In fact, in order for the folly of the wicked (in regard to their delusion on Christ’s coming) to be exposed and eliminated the Lord must return in fiery judgment and expose their ignorance.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

" they shall not ESCAPE, but sudden destruction shall come upon them AS A WOMAN WITH A CHILD TRAVAILS".

3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."
You guys don't look up much that hurts your deal

It says they are RUINED as a woman in pain with a child
They are emotionally destroyed.( REMEMBER YOU HEARD THE CORRECT CONTEXT FROM REBUILDER. AND HE WILL CONTINUE CORRECTING YOUR ERROR)

LOL at "emotionally destroyed". What a joke. That is not what Paul is talking about at all. LOL! You will do ANYTHING and go to ANY length to try to keep your weak doctrine afloat.

Do you not believe in interpreting scripture with scripture? While Paul does not go into detail about what causes the "sudden destruction" on the day of the Lord, Peter does.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So, now we can clearly see that what will cause the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" and we can clearly see it's not emotional destruction (LOL!), but rather physical destruction by fire on the entire earth.

you correctly point out that God has not appointed us to wrath, but ,at the same time, insist that you and your colleagues go COMPLETELY THROGH THE WRATH OF GOD.

No, that is an absolute lie. Which makes you....

psssst...the innumerable number that no man can count ,and are in heaven, CAME OUT OF THE GT.

Hey, I have news for you. Are you paying attention? It says they come out of great tribulation, not THE great tribulation. Just as all believers do.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

THEY ARE BILLIONS OF MARTYRS THAT WERE KILLED BY THE DEVIL.

Billions of martyrs killed by the devil? What nonsense. That is not taught anywhere. You have quite an active imagination.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You implying I added to Scripture is patently FALSE.

Your capability extends to criticizing Pre-trib believers without being able to recognize, acknowledge or comprehend PLAIN SIMPLE revealed Scripture.

LOL at you referring to your doctrine as plain and simple. LOL!!! We have a bunch of comedians here.

 

[WPM]

" they shall not ESCAPE, but sudden destruction shall come upon them AS A WOMAN WITH A CHILD TRAVAILS".

3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."
You guys don't look up much that hurts your deal

It says they are RUINED as a woman in pain with a child
They are emotionally destroyed.( REMEMBER YOU HEARD THE CORRECT CONTEXT FROM REBUILDER. AND HE WILL CONTINUE CORRECTING YOUR ERROR)


Then they are told to watch, be ready, be sober.

you correctly point out that God has not appointed us to wrath, but ,at the same time, insist that you and your colleagues go COMPLETELY THROGH THE WRATH OF GOD.

psssst...the innumerable number that no man can count ,and are in heaven, CAME OUT OF THE GT.
THEY ARE BILLIONS OF MARTYRS THAT WERE KILLED BY THE DEVIL.
Ahem....NO POSTRIBBER MADE UP PROTECTION, WITH AN IMMAGINARY 15 RAMBO'S, OF YOU "ELITES", RUNNING FROM CAVE TO CAVE SCREAMING In TERROR, AS THE AC HENCHMEN ARE RIGHT ON YOUR HEELS.

What a imagination, totally unbiblical, in the face of scripture, that DECLARES all take the mark or die.

Please try to do a tiny bit of research.

The word rendered “sudden” in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is the Greek word aifnídios meaning unawares, and the accompanying word olethros used here means ruin, death and/or destruction. Therefore, we can deduce from this reading that the Lord’s coming sees the ‘unexpected ruin or destruction’ of all those left behind at the catching away.

 

[Taken]

" they shall not ESCAPE, but sudden destruction shall come upon them AS A WOMAN WITH A CHILD TRAVAILS".

3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."
You guys don't look up much that hurts your deal

It says they are RUINED as a woman in pain with a child
They are emotionally destroyed.( REMEMBER YOU HEARD THE CORRECT CONTEXT FROM REBUILDER. AND HE WILL CONTINUE CORRECTING YOUR ERROR)


Then they are told to watch, be ready, be sober.

you correctly point out that God has not appointed us to wrath, but ,at the same time, insist that you and your colleagues go COMPLETELY THROGH THE WRATH OF GOD.

psssst...the innumerable number that no man can count ,and are in heaven, CAME OUT OF THE GT.
THEY ARE BILLIONS OF MARTYRS THAT WERE KILLED BY THE DEVIL.
Ahem....NO POSTRIBBER MADE UP PROTECTION, WITH AN IMMAGINARY 15 RAMBO'S, OF YOU "ELITES", RUNNING FROM CAVE TO CAVE SCREAMING In TERROR, AS THE AC HENCHMEN ARE RIGHT ON YOUR HEELS.

What a imagination, totally unbiblical, in the face of scripture, that DECLARES all take the mark or die.

Please try to do a tiny bit of research.

WPM does not “understand”.
Look at his quote he quotes from Scripture…

WPM said:
1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The dead in Christ…rise up to the air.
The alive in Christ….rise up to the air.
All on the Command of Lord directing His Archangel Servant…so those IN Christ are called UP to meet Him.

So WPM quotes…(others) shall be “brought” to God, by God “bringing” them to Him…

Why does WPM read, quote, and not comprehend the difference?

Oh yeah…cuz he doesn’t even pay attention to what is actually SAID in Scripture.


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

I did! If you have any further follow-up questions please give.

You answered according to the limits of your ability, which did not address the questions.

 

[The Light]

You are forcing something into this that does not exist. Of course, "there is more than one time and one season." Hello! We all know that and believe that. But Jesus is talking about the different events that occur before the one final future coming of Christ. You cannot attribute anything more to that. If you do, then you are manipulating the Word of God to support your own beliefs.

I'm ready what the word says. It says TIMES AND SEASONS.

Wrath accompanies the coming of Christ. It is the end. The end is ushered in when Jesus comes. None escape. That is the mantra of Scripture. You (and your fellow Pretribbers) refuse to take Scripture literally.

The word malarky comes to mind. You guys don't know what literal mans.

The wicked are all destroyed when Jesus comes. II Thessalonians 1:4-10 records: “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this more water-tight: men either know God or they don't. To know God is eternal life (John 17:3). This was also the case in Noah and Lot's day. Nothing has changed. If humans know Him, they are rescued at His return, if they do not know Him, they are destroyed. Simple! Premils have no problems with this reality when it comes to Noah and Lot's day. They only get awkward and pedantic when it comes to the second coming, because it negates their doctrine. They feel the need to diminish the scale and timing of the destruction in order to populate their alleged future millennial earth.

You have one return of the Lord at the end of wrath. Won't work.

 

[The Light]

John saw a vision after vision describing the intra-advent age.

The last seal is silence in heaven.

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

You should read the next sentence.
Revelation 8
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

The seventh seal is the seven trumpets of wrath.

 

[The Light]

Jesus said in Matthew 16:18-19: “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed In heaven.”

The Church of Jesus Christ carries “the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven” now. They operate in the authority of that victorious kingdom through Christ. The Church has been given authority over the demonic realm of Satan; they have the kingly authority to resist every spiritual attack of the evil one upon their lives. Therefore, wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is assuredly bound. Where ever the light is shone the darkness is dispelled.

Think about that! Darkness cannot handle the light. When light shines, darkness must go. As the Church of Jesus Christ spreads the good news (or light of the Gospel) throughout the world the devil is exposed for who he is: he is stupid, he is a fool, he is a loser.

For him to think that he could outsmart God, curtail God or defeat God is the ultimate definition of insanity. To properly understand the authority we are talking about we need to see the nature of the actual conflict that we are engaged in on this earth.

• It is spiritual.
• It is fought in the unseen heavenly realm.
• It’s supernatural.

Many Premils walk about today with a big devil and a small God, instead of a big God and a small devil. This is revealed in their timid, anxious, powerless, directionless, and ineffective lifestyle.

1 John 4:4 is not a cliché it is a fact: “greater is he that is in you (which is Jesus), than he that is in the world (Satan).”

Scriptures pits the battle between Christ and Satan, not even you and Satan. There is a power within us that enables us to rule over the realm of darkness.

Men are either “in Christ” or “in the world.” If you are in Christ then there is a power within you that is stronger than the devil and the kingdom of darkness.

Listen to what Paul teaches in Romans 8:16-17:

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Being “joint-heirs with Christ” means that we enjoy the benefits and privileges of what He won for us through His sinless life, His atoning death, and His victorious resurrection. What is more, as "joint-heirs with Christ" we reign because He reigns.

John says in Revelation 1:5-6, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us (present tense) kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”

Hello! The Bible says we are kings!!!

What do kings do?

• They possess authority.
• They exercise power.
• They call the shots.
• They identify, confront and overcome their enemies.
• They rule over their enemies, their enemies do not rule over them.

The Christian does not try to produce authority, he has authority. It is who he is. Those who are always talking to talk, and not walking the walk, are all fizz and bubble. They are want-to-be Christians. But if you have authority and power people recognize it. It is who you are!

1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church, “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

Many Christians are under the mistaken impression that their spiritual kingship and place of reigning in Christ is all yet future; however, while we will rule in the future, we also rule now spiritually. We are presently a kingly priesthood.

Please read Romans 5:17, “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

We are positionally reigning now in life through Christ. We are in forcing God’s will around us. When God speaks we move, relay and do.

Whether we preach, prophecy, intercede, cast out devils, or pray for the sick, we must do it in Jesus name. Why? Because Christ is already defeated Satan, and by us being in Christ, we have the right to enforce that victory. Amen? That is our authority. That is our standing.

Revelation is full of symbolism. I'm sorry that you do not get that. Crowns represent authority. We are kings and priests right now. Kings possess crowns. God's people are reigning on earth as spiritual kings and priests implement the victory of the cross. That is because they carry spiritual authority. Multiple Scripture tells us Christ has given us "power" and "authority" now.

Believers claim their authority and power through and since the cross. They rule as kings and priests (in life and death) from then.

We reign over our spiritual enemies today.

So are you saying that you have your crown. Or do you have to wait until Jesus returns?

 

[The Light]

We are attempting to grasp Paul's message and are questioning whether 24 hours is enough time to accomplish everything. Additionally, Paul's discussion transitions into a conversation about the Day of the Lord, which is not a 24-hour period but rather an era when God's will is done on earth as it is in heaven.

Thus, we find a good reason to understand "day" in verse 10 as the Day of the Lord.

According to the Word of God, the Day of the Lord is one year.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I agree! The Day of the Lord the Old Covenant prophets foretell should come is not a single Day but is an age/time/era. Do you deny this age/time/era the Old Covenant prophets foretell shall have a final/last/end day the New Testament also writes as the Day of the Lord?

The Day of the Lord is the age/time/era when God's will is done on earth as in heaven. Once inaugurated, that age/time/era will never end. As for the timing of the inauguration of the DOL, I take my cues from Revelation chapter 14.

 

[Taken]

LOL at you referring to your doctrine as plain and simple. LOL!!! We have a bunch of comedians here.

I haven’t referred to my doctrine.
I expressly quoted Gods approved scripture.
Jesus’ doctrine is SIMPLE.
It is lack of SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING that gives people a sting.

 

[CadyandZoe]

There is always a reason why posters cannot present Scripture to support their position. They do not have it!

That is one reason, but it isn't the only reason.

 

[WPM]

You answered according to the limits of your ability, which did not address the questions.

Not so. Clarify what you disagree with.

 

[Taken]

You are obviously very touchy. I did not say that. But, if you want to take offense that is up to you.

Own what you say.
Your direct quote to me.

There is no need to complicate it or to add to Scripture.

That was a false and serious noted accusation.
Move on, no worries, you have not the ability to offend me with false accusations.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Where is what you're saying indicated anywhere in what Paul taught? Please start backing up your opinions with scripture or I will have no choice but to ignore you. I'm not interested in reading only your opinions that are not backed up at all by scripture.

My commentary came from 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. You might have that passage open as you read my post.

 

[CadyandZoe]

LOL. So, you're not doing that because....?

Are you going to force me to say it?

 

[Taken]

Not so. Clarify what you disagree with.

Already did.
You should have learned in First grade how to concisely answer a direct question.

Teacher ~ Question
Susie does your mother live in the house you live in?
Student ~ Answer
A lady lives in my house.
Teacher ~ Vague, doesn’t answer question.
Teacher ~ Try again.
Student ~ Answer
Yes.

Not my job to teach you how to have a valid worthwhile conversation.