The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[WPM]

All the rapture verses have zero destruction.
The only gathering with destruction is the one after the trib at the white horses coming. Which can not be the rapture of the Church. Impossible.

So your deal is NA.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

There is no 7-year trib here. There is no trib period. You have to add it unto Scripture. That is what Pretrib is and does.

Please see here: “the coming of the Lord” and “the day of the Lord” are shown to refer to the same climactic day. This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.” There is no suggestion of survivors. None are in the passage.

The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this clearer: “they shall not escape.” This totally negates the whole Pretrib and Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth.

If the day of the Lord here relates to a third coming, as most Pretribbers argue, and they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, then why is this describing the wicked, who are experiencing the 7 years tribulation, as declaring “Peace and safety”? Surely this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?

 

[WPM]

Thanks for trying, however your answer was vague and did not answer the questions.

In your opinion. But in reality, it is not vague at all.

 

[rebuilder 454]

LOL. You are hilarious. This is all you have in response to someone exegeting scripture. You never exegete scripture yourself. And we're supposed to believe you? LOL. You are completely delusional.

Show me anywhere in his post, he depicted a postrib rapture.
I will wait.
I get a chuckle out of that egg on your face.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Opinion without verification from Scripture is meaningless!

Well, you just gave me your opinion and you didn't quote scripture. What shall I make of that? :)

Listen rwb, the majority view on this board seems to be that people don't like long posts. So, whenever I can, I give short answers to people whom I know have discussed this subject for years. I think it is safe to assume that WPM and Spiritual Israelite knows the material well and they are intellegent individuals who get my drift.

 

[CadyandZoe]

If you can't back it up with scripture, then there is no reason to take you seriously. Everyone knows this.

I can back it up with scripture. I believe you know this.

 

[WPM]

Mat 24 has 2 distinct vivid gatherings.
Which you omitted.....over and over.

Really? Where? More false claims.

 

[CadyandZoe]

But, you believe in 2 more comings of Christ just like they do, so that is what I'm addressing. I showed that your "Coming 2" happens on the same day as your "Coming 1" which completely refutes your belief.

I maintain that Paul doesn't mean "the same 24-hour period."

 

[Taken]

Not sure he will answer these............but I will.

1 Jesus
2 The alive who remained.
3. Before Jesus returns to earth.


1. Jesus
2. It absolutely has to be before the 5th seal which we can prove by Revelation 14. I suspect this will occur just before the seals are opened on the Feast of New Oil.
3 Yes Jesus is present on Mount Sion.



1 Jesus
2 Before
3 His angels are with Him as is the Church which is gathered from heaven at the gathering from heaven and earth. This occurs at the 6th seal which is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24. Jesus remains in the clouds. All that are gathered from the earth and the Church return to heaven for the marriage supper. This is the great multitude that is seen in Rev 7.

Thanks!

When direct and precise questions are asked and the response is vague and avoiding…it is easy to see why some people do not, can not believe or understand the Truth.

Each “TITLE” under which Jesus acts…is Different….Same as ONE human man who has Multiple “TITLES” acts “differently” under each “TITLE”…

(For example a human man who is …
A husband, dad, CEO, Army Corporal, Neighbor….has different relationships with his wife, his children, his employees, his military comrades and trainees)

No different than human men who have…
A familiar relationship with Jesus, A committed relationship with Jesus, No relationship with Jesus, Establish a relationship with Jesus in the last days of Gods Tribulations and Wrath sent to Earth.

Men who fail to understand, rail against what they do not understand… That simple.

God Bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[WPM]

Thanks!

When direct and precise questions are asked and the response is vague and avoiding…it is easy to see why some people do not, can not believe or understand the Truth.

Each “TITLE” under which Jesus acts…is Different….Same as ONE human man who has Multiple “TITLES” acts “differently” under each “TITLE”…

(For example a human man who is …
A husband, dad, CEO, Army Corporal, Neighbor….has different relationships with his wife, his children, his employees, his military comrades and trainees)

No different than human men who have…
A familiar relationship with Jesus, A committed relationship with Jesus, No relationship with Jesus, Establish a relationship with Jesus in the last days of Gods Tribulations and Wrath sent to Earth.

Men who fail to understand, rail against what they do not understand… That simple.

God Bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

Pick any detailed post above from an Amil and you will see the simplicity and veracity of the climatic return of the Lord. There is no need to complicate it or to add to Scripture.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes, of course. Why not? There is no indication otherwise whatsoever. This is you once again trying to twist scripture to fit your view.

We are attempting to grasp Paul's message and are questioning whether 24 hours is enough time to accomplish everything. Additionally, Paul's discussion transitions into a conversation about the Day of the Lord, which is not a 24-hour period but rather an era when God's will is done on earth as it is in heaven.

Thus, we find a good reason to understand "day" in verse 10 as the Day of the Lord.

 

[WPM]

I can back it up with scripture. I believe you know this.

Go ahead!

 

[rwb]

Christ's Second Coming is a specific day.

It will be a day that no one knows when the seventh/last trumpet sounds, and time shall be no longer!

 

[rwb]

We are attempting to grasp Paul's message and are questioning whether 24 hours is enough time to accomplish everything. Additionally, Paul's discussion transitions into a conversation about the Day of the Lord, which is not a 24-hour period but rather an era when God's will is done on earth as it is in heaven.

Thus, we find a good reason to understand "day" in verse 10 as the Day of the Lord.

I agree! The Day of the Lord the Old Covenant prophets foretell should come is not a single Day but is an age/time/era. Do you deny this age/time/era the Old Covenant prophets foretell shall have a final/last/end day the New Testament also writes as the Day of the Lord?

 

[WPM]

Well, you just gave me your opinion and you didn't quote scripture. What shall I make of that? :)

Listen rwb, the majority view on this board seems to be that people don't like long posts. So, whenever I can, I give short answers to people whom I know have discussed this subject for years. I think it is safe to assume that WPM and Spiritual Israelite knows the material well and they are intellegent individuals who get my drift.

There is always a reason why posters cannot present Scripture to support their position. They do not have it!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Christ's Second Coming is a specific day.

No, Jesus very specifically said that no one knows the day or hour of His second coming (Matthew 24:36, Matthew 25:13). You deny clear scripture repeatedly. Where do you think it is taught in scripture that Christ's second coming is a specific day? Do you want to be taken seriously or not? I don't think you or any pretribs have any interest in being taken seriously because none of you do anything to back up your opinions with scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We are attempting to grasp Paul's message and are questioning whether 24 hours is enough time to accomplish everything. Additionally, Paul's discussion transitions into a conversation about the Day of the Lord, which is not a 24-hour period but rather an era when God's will is done on earth as it is in heaven.

Thus, we find a good reason to understand "day" in verse 10 as the Day of the Lord.

Where is what you're saying indicated anywhere in what Paul taught? Please start backing up your opinions with scripture or I will have no choice but to ignore you. I'm not interested in reading only your opinions that are not backed up at all by scripture.

 

[Taken]

In your opinion. But in reality, it is not vague at all.

In your opinion. But in reality, it is not vague at all.

in fact of reality, The questions were precise, only requiring a precise one-two word answer. That did not occur.

 

[rebuilder 454]

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

There is no 7-year trib here. There is no trib period. You have to addb it unto Scripture. That is what Pretrib is and does.

Please see here: “the coming of the Lord” and “the day of the Lord” are shown to refer to the same climactic day. This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.” There is no suggestion of survivors. None are in the passage.

The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this clearer: “they shall not escape.” This totally negates the whole Pretrib and Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth.

If the day of the Lord here relates to a third coming, as most Pretribbers argue, and they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, then why is this describing the wicked, who are experiencing the 7 years tribulation, as declaring “Peace and safety”? Surely this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?

" they shall not ESCAPE, but sudden destruction shall come upon them AS A WOMAN WITH A CHILD TRAVAILS".

3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."
You guys don't look up much that hurts your deal

It says they are RUINED as a woman in pain with a child
They are emotionally destroyed.( REMEMBER YOU HEARD THE CORRECT CONTEXT FROM REBUILDER. AND HE WILL CONTINUE CORRECTING YOUR ERROR)


Then they are told to watch, be ready, be sober.

you correctly point out that God has not appointed us to wrath, but ,at the same time, insist that you and your colleagues go COMPLETELY THROGH THE WRATH OF GOD.

psssst...the innumerable number that no man can count ,and are in heaven, CAME OUT OF THE GT.
THEY ARE BILLIONS OF MARTYRS THAT WERE KILLED BY THE DEVIL.
Ahem....NO POSTRIBBER MADE UP PROTECTION, WITH AN IMMAGINARY 15 RAMBO'S, OF YOU "ELITES", RUNNING FROM CAVE TO CAVE SCREAMING In TERROR, AS THE AC HENCHMEN ARE RIGHT ON YOUR HEELS.

What a imagination, totally unbiblical, in the face of scripture, that DECLARES all take the mark or die.

Please try to do a tiny bit of research.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I can back it up with scripture. I believe you know this.

LOL. So, you're not doing that because....?

 

[Taken]

Pick any detailed post above from an Amil and you will see the simplicity and veracity of the climatic return of the Lord. There is no need to complicate it or to add to Scripture.

You implying I added to Scripture is patently FALSE.

Your capability extends to criticizing Pre-trib believers without being able to recognize, acknowledge or comprehend PLAIN SIMPLE revealed Scripture.