The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[The Light]

Since the pre-trib rapture doctors refer to 1 Thessalonians 4 as proof of their belief in a rapture of Christ's Church prior to the "great tribulation", when the faithful and serious Bible student actually looks at what Apostle Paul taught there in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the gathering of the Church, then it becomes obvious the pre-trib rapture doctors are telling LIES.

Can you explain why many of the them which sleep in the ground shall be changed? Why aren't all of them that sleep in the ground changed?

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

1 Thess 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

What is that, "... and the dead in Christ shall rise first" about, since that happens when Jesus descends from Heaven to gather His Church? Even the previous 1 Thess.4:15 verse confirms that those us still alive on earth shall not 'precede' the asleep saints that have already died (Greek for KJV "prevent" actually means 'to go beforehand' or precede).

That "... and the dead in Christ shall rise first" is about the RESURRECTION of the asleep saints that Jesus will bring with Him when He comes...

1 Thess 4:13-14
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
KJV

When does the future RESURRECTION happen per God's Word?

Jesus said:
John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him That sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV

Seems pretty clear. The alive shall not precede the dead. The dead in Christ rise first. Bingo. Simple enough

The alive remain. Simple enough.

Then he comes for the alive that remained. He will bring the dead in Christ with Him when He comes for the alive that remained.

Lines up perfectly with the feasts of God.

What "last day"? Simply, the final day of this present world!

When does the final day of this present world occur? At the 6th seal? At the 7th trumpet blown by an angel? After the 1000 years?

What Apostle Paul actually taught about the time of Christ's future coming to gather His Church is actually that it will occur ON THE 'LAST DAY' OF THIS WORLD, not... with some secret rapture prior to the "great tribulation".

When is this last day of this present and when will it occur? At the 6th seal? At the 7th trumpet blown by an angel? After the 1000 years?

Or do you have another last day picked out?

No wonder the pre-trib rapture doctors instead just scan... over those 1 Thess.4 verses instead of actually covering what Paul taught in them!

Why does Paul say this?

1 Thes 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Why doesn't Paul just say but of the time and season?

 

[The Light]

Check the Op. This correlates with the 6th seal.

So are you saying that Jesus comes at the 6th seal or Jesus comes at the 7th trumpet or that Jesus comes at both the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet?

 

[WPM]

Can you explain why many of the them which sleep in the ground shall be changed? Why aren't all of them that sleep in the ground changed?

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Seems pretty clear. The alive shall not precede the dead. The dead in Christ rise first. Bingo. Simple enough

The alive remain. Simple enough.

Then he comes for the alive that remained. He will bring the dead in Christ with Him when He comes for the alive that remained.

Lines up perfectly with the feasts of God.


When does the final day of this present world occur? At the 6th seal? At the 7th trumpet blown by an angel? After the 1000 years?


When is this last day of this present and when will it occur? At the 6th seal? At the 7th trumpet blown by an angel? After the 1000 years?

Or do you have another last day picked out?


Why does Paul say this?

1 Thes 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Why doesn't Paul just say but of the time and season?

Daniel 12:1-3 reveals, “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.”

This reading shows a general resurrection involving two types of people – the righteous and the wicked; one group rises "to everlasting life" the other to "everlasting contempt." The fact that we see a clear description of the general resurrection of the righteous and the wicked tells us that this is a tribulation that occurs prior to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The word here for “many” in the original Hebrew (rab) actually means: the abundance, referring to quantity, size, age, number, rank, quality. In the sense it is used here it includes everyone that is in the grave. Namely: “the abundance of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.”

 

[WPM]

So are you saying that Jesus comes at the 6th seal or Jesus comes at the 7th trumpet or that Jesus comes at both the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet?

How many times do I need to repeat? Revelation is not chronological. It is definitely not a single unfolding sequence of historic events from start to finish. It is certainly not chronological. There are many parts of the book that do not run in a linear fashion. Revelation lays out its own chronology, letting us know the beginning and ending of each recapitulation. It also shows us the parts that are parenthetical, and gives common and consistent points of reference between the various portions of the book.

As you dive into the book of Revelation you see it is a series of recaps. It is a number of repetitions describing the spiritual battle going on during the intra-Advent period. It presents different camera views of the same game (mainly, the period between Christ's First Advent and His Second Advent). Sometimes when one is watching a sports game, the camera is close in on the action, sometimes it presents a broad panoramic view of the game. Sometimes it is focused on the coaches, sometimes it is focused on the players, other times, it is focused on the fans. The book Revelation is a bit like that. Sinclair Ferguson describes the apocalypse as: “Recapitulatory and progressive parallelism.” Each recapitulation finishes with the gathering of the wicked together to battle against the righteous, followed by the glorious climatic coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Parallels are simply different camera views of the same corresponding intra-Advent period which look at different aspects of the great battle between darkness and light. While they focus in on the same intra-Advent period, they focus different aspects of the overthrow of the kingdom of darkness. Revelation is written for the purpose of revealing the character and standing of Christ, His power and glory, following His victorious earthly ministry. It reveals who Christ is, His current standing, what His plan is, and it also ministers unto those who are going through tribulation.

It is important to recognize the recaps (or repeats or different camera views) of the same general game in Revelation. Each show us an important different aspect of the defeat of the kingdom of darkness and the defeat of every enemy of righteousness. Each of these refer to different subjects, entities or aspects of God's unfolding plan during that time. Each recapitulation finishes with the gathering of the wicked together to battle against the righteous, followed by the glorious climatic coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I believe we see the progressive detail of the conflict between the two kingdoms, zooming in on particular aspects of that great final conflict. Comparing each recap to each other which seem to reinforce that position.

Each parallel ends with a gathering together to fight and then divine intervention through the second coming and their wholesale destruction.

 

[rwb]

Are you guys like a Tag Team or something? Lol.

If by tag team you mean that Amils consistently use Scripture to prove biblical truth, then yes, I suppose Amils do indeed support biblical doctrine we bring to these discussions in opposition to doctrines of Premils.

 

[WPM]

Matthew 24:21-22 still does not fit 70AD. Matthew 24:15 is end times, referring to Daniel 12:11-12.

Go look at my post #681 that has the post-trib view chart, the pre-trib view chart, the anytime rapture view chart. The great tribulation is shown on all three.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

End-Time Great Tribulation Centred Upon Earthly Jerusalem???

You are looking to the wrong Jerusalem. I don’t believe that the focal point of end-time history is upon earthly Jerusalem (that is under bondage); I believe that it will be focused upon the inhabitants of the New Jerusalem – you and me. I believe in a global opposition/persecution. I do not literalise any of the above symbolic references in Revelation as they are employed to impress New Testament spiritual truths. John repeatedly employs prominent Old Testament imagery to impress glorious spiritual New Testament truths. He used familiar Old Testament geographical locations and physical events within the old economy era to explain literal future spiritual events.

“No, Nor Ever Shall Be”

It is not necessary speaking of size or scope; some import that into it. It is speaking of the overwhelming effect and destruction it had upon one particular disobedient people – the Jews; a people that should have known better. The Roman siege in 70 A.D. resulted in the total destruction of the city and of life within the city. Their whole culture, political and religious structure that was intimately tied to Jerusalem was in one foul swoop swiftly and effectively eliminated. The fact is, they still haven’t recovered 2,000 years later. They are the only major religion in the world that still doesn’t own their religious centre. This all resulted from this great tribulation from God. The world would never again witness such a swift, complete and lasting destruction of a whole people/culture and their religious place of worship and associated belief system.

The concluding statement in our last reading in Matthew 24 says, of this heavenly judgment and its aftermath, “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time (i.e. from creation to AD 70), no, nor ever shall be (speaking of a distinct time-period following this judgment, which manifestly involves various trials only of lesser impact, namely AD 70 till the second coming).” In these words of the Lord, we see the confirmation of the fact that there would assuredly be a stretch of time following this great tribulation, just as there was a time period preceding it.

AD 70 not only seen the slaughter of the Jewish people on a mammoth scale, it also seen the removal of their place of worship (and their innate method of worship) and seen the removal of them from their beloved homeland. In this sense AD 70 is unprecedented. Everything they stood for was demolished, including their faith. The only ones that survived complete were the Christians that fled to the Judean mountains as directed by the Lord. In coming to their position, Pretribbers totally ignore the context and the subject matter in view – namely Jerusalem, the Jews and their escape from the AD 70 destruction. It should be remembered, it is not one single element of AD 70 it is the collective depth and impact that it had that caused it to be described like this. Everything sunk at the one time. They have still yet to recover.

 

[WPM]

Why does Paul say this?

1 Thes 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Why doesn't Paul just say but of the time and season?

What does this mean in your opinion? What does this prove? How does this support a rapture of the Church followed by a tribulation followed by another coming?

 

[MA2444]

Where?

What do you mean where? Even if he posted it for you you would ignore it just like yesterday and you got your scriptures posted for you from the book of Daniel and you ignored it and began whining about where? Where?

You are Kukoo.

 

[Douggg]

That's the biblical view, as you've been repeatedly shown! Christ comes again when the last (seventh) trumpet shall sound that TIME shall be no longer (Rev 10:5-7). How does this FACT contradict no man knowing the day and hour?

Because post-trib view has the rapture taking place on the specific day of Jesus's return. But Jesus said (paraphrasing) that no man knows that specific day and hour, only God the Father knows.

When God the Father determines when, God the Father is going to say to Jesus - now is the day and hour, go resurrect the saints in Christ and translate the living saints in Christ (the rapture). ( Of course no one's knows
what God the Father's exact words will be. I am just trying to explain.)

 

[The Light]

How many times do I need to repeat?

Oh, I don't know. How many times do I have to tell you I don't believe in a 7 year tribulation, I believe in a 70th week of Daniel.

Revelation is not chronological.

I know.

It is definitely not a single unfolding sequence of historic events from start to finish. It is certainly not chronological. There are many parts of the book that do not run in a linear fashion. Revelation lays out its own chronology, letting us know the beginning and ending of each recapitulation. It also shows us the parts that are parenthetical, and gives common and consistent points of reference between the various portions of the book.

I know.

As you dive into the book of Revelation you see it is a series of recaps. It is a number of repetitions describing the spiritual battle going on during the intra-Advent period. It presents different camera views of the same game (mainly, the period between Christ's First Advent and His Second Advent). Sometimes when one is watching a sports game, the camera is close in on the action, sometimes it presents a broad panoramic view of the game. Sometimes it is focused on the coaches, sometimes it is focused on the players, other times, it is focused on the fans. The book Revelation is a bit like that. Sinclair Ferguson describes the apocalypse as: “Recapitulatory and progressive parallelism.” Each recapitulation finishes with the gathering of the wicked together to battle against the righteous, followed by the glorious climatic coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Agreed.

Parallels are simply different camera views of the same corresponding intra-Advent period which look at different aspects of the great battle between darkness and light. While they focus in on the same intra-Advent period, they focus different aspects of the overthrow of the kingdom of darkness. Revelation is written for the purpose of revealing the character and standing of Christ, His power and glory, following His victorious earthly ministry. It reveals who Christ is, His current standing, what His plan is, and it also ministers unto those who are going through tribulation.

Ok

It is important to recognize the recaps (or repeats or different camera views) of the same general game in Revelation. Each show us an important different aspect of the defeat of the kingdom of darkness and the defeat of every enemy of righteousness. Each of these refer to different subjects, entities or aspects of God's unfolding plan during that time. Each recapitulation finishes with the gathering of the wicked together to battle against the righteous, followed by the glorious climatic coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I believe we see the progressive detail of the conflict between the two kingdoms, zooming in on particular aspects of that great final conflict. Comparing each recap to each other which seem to reinforce that position.

Each parallel ends with a gathering together to fight and then divine intervention through the second coming and their wholesale destruction.

It's a very good post. However, I don't see your specifics.

My specifics are that the seals are in order. The first four seals are the beginning of sorrows of Matthew 24. The 5th seal is the great tribulation of Matthew 24 and the 6th seal is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24.

So the tribulation is over and then Jesus comes at the 6th seal and then the 7th seal is opened which is the one-year wrath of God...........the Day of the Lord.

 

[Douggg]

AD 70 not only seen the slaughter of the Jewish people on a mammoth scale, it also seen the removal of their place of worship (and their innate method of worship) and seen the removal of them from their beloved homeland. In this sense AD 70 is unprecedented.

During the great tribulation, a third of mankind will be killed in the sixth trumpet, woe 2. Revelation 9:14-21.

Did not happen in 70 AD.

 

[The Light]

What does this mean in your opinion? What does this prove? How does this support a rapture of the Church followed by a tribulation followed by another coming?

I believe that Paul is telling us that Jesus comes for the Church in 1 Thes 4. Then he uses the terms times and seasons instead of time and season because there is more than one time and one season.

Paul has shifted to talking about the Day of the Lord in 1 Thes 5. That's why he uses times and seasons. There is no reason that he writes to them because they already know the different times and seasons of His coming.

Then he tells them they are not appointed to wrath. This lines up perfectly with the tribulation being over and then Jesus returning at the 6th seal for the second harvest which is before the 7th seal is opened. The 7th seal is the wrath of God.

 

[WPM]

You are Kukoo.

Pretribbers have a lovely way of engaging.

 

[WPM]

I believe that Paul is telling us that Jesus comes for the Church in 1 Thes 4. Then he uses the terms times and seasons instead of time and season because there is more than one time and one season.

Paul has shifted to talking about the Day of the Lord in 1 Thes 5. That's why he uses times and seasons. There is no reason that he writes to them because they already know the different times and seasons of His coming.

Then he tells them they are not appointed to wrath. This lines up perfectly with the tribulation being over and then Jesus returning at the 6th seal for the second harvest which is before the 7th seal is opened. The 7th seal is the wrath of God.

You are forcing something into this that does not exist. Of course, "there is more than one time and one season." Hello! We all know that and believe that. But Jesus is talking about the different events that occur before the one final future coming of Christ. You cannot attribute anything more to that. If you do, then you are manipulating the Word of God to support your own beliefs.

Wrath accompanies the coming of Christ. It is the end. The end is ushered in when Jesus comes. None escape. That is the mantra of Scripture. You (and your fellow Pretribbers) refuse to take Scripture literally.

The wicked are all destroyed when Jesus comes. II Thessalonians 1:4-10 records: “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this more water-tight: men either know God or they don't. To know God is eternal life (John 17:3). This was also the case in Noah and Lot's day. Nothing has changed. If humans know Him, they are rescued at His return, if they do not know Him, they are destroyed. Simple! Premils have no problems with this reality when it comes to Noah and Lot's day. They only get awkward and pedantic when it comes to the second coming, because it negates their doctrine. They feel the need to diminish the scale and timing of the destruction in order to populate their alleged future millennial earth.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Where?

It's obvious.

Coming 1:
Meets his followers in the air.

Coming 2:
Enters Jerusalem after the battle of Armageddon.

 

[WPM]

Then he tells them they are not appointed to wrath. This lines up perfectly with the tribulation being over and then Jesus returning at the 6th seal for the second harvest which is before the 7th seal is opened. The 7th seal is the wrath of God.

John saw a vision after vision describing the intra-advent age.

The last seal is silence in heaven.

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

 

[WPM]

It's obvious.

Coming 1:
Meets his followers in the air.

Coming 2:
Enters Jerusalem after the battle of Armageddon.

Can you actually give me Scripture instead of presenting your own private opinions?

 

[Taken]

I want to say at the start, this is not an attack on individual Pretribbers. There are many solid Pretribbers out there. This is a challenge on the doctrine espoused by them.

A few questions for you…if you can answer.

1 Thes 4:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1) Who is this Lord in the air?
2) Who is meeting this Lord in the air?
3) IS this meeting before or after Jesus returns to Earth?

Rev 14:
[1] And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

1) Who is this Lamb on Mount Sion?
2) During which portion of the end of days Tribulation in Revelations, (1-7 Seals?, 1-7 Trumps, 1-3 Woes?, 1-7 Bowls?) is this Lamb present on Mount Sion?


Rev 14:
[14] And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

1) Who is this Son of Man?
2) IS this taking place before or after Jesus returns to earth.
3) Who is with Him?

Thanks,

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have said nothing prideful about my charts. You are making false accusations. Please stop with the inflammatory rhetoric.

There is nothing in the forum rules preventing you (or anyone else) from creating timeline charts and inserting them into posts.

You don't have to say anything. People ask you not to post them and you post them, anyway, and demand that people look at them. It strongly comes across that you like to show off your charts and hope that people will be impressed with your Photoshop skills.

 

[WPM]

A few questions for you…if you can answer.

1 Thes 4:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1) Who is this Lord in the air?
2) Who is meeting this Lord in the air?
3) IS this meeting before or after Jesus returns to Earth?

This is the one and only coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to the sky to rescue all His elect and destroy all the wicked.

Rev 14:
[1] And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

1) Who is this Lamb on Mount Sion?
2) During which portion of the end of days Tribulation in Revelations, (1-7 Seals?, 1-7 Trumps, 1-3 Woes?, 1-7 Bowls?) is this Lamb present on Mount Sion?

That is a picture of heavenly Jerusalem today. Earthly Jerusalem has been judged and condemned already. She has lost her theocratic favorite position throughout the world.

Rev 14:
[14] And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

1) Who is this Son of Man?
2) IS this taking place before or after Jesus returns to earth.
3) Who is with Him??

This is the one and only coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to the sky to rescue all His elect and destroy all the wicked.