The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[rebuilder 454]

More avoidance.

We address you directly.
Leave your deal in ashes

Your comeback is " avoidance,"

SMH

 

[rebuilder 454]

Oh, so you are now midtrib?

It reads exactly like that. A Rapture mid trib. In Revelation 14.

That's the difference between us. I read the word of God and I report exactly what it says.

 

[The Light]

More avoidance.

Nah. How many scriptures do I have to post?

Two folds into one

John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Shows Israel was chosen as 1st harvest but they served other Baalpeor. The Gentiles become the 1st harvest as the fig tree has two harvests.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Show Christ has come because the elders have their crowns.

Revelation 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

We can escape all these things that come to pass and stand before the Son of man

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

One coming like the days of Noah and one coming like the days of Lot. The irony is that you think there is only one coming and it is after wrath. Where the Word shows we are not appointed to wrath.

I could keep posting scriptures but you can't even understand these. There are five wise virgins and five foolish virgins. The wise are watching and ready.

 

[Douggg]

Stop avoiding! Do you believe the wicked literally "shall not escape" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?

I answered the question with "yes", the wicked will have to go through the great tribulation when the day of the Lord comes upon them like a thief in the night.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Nah. How many scriptures do I have to post?

Two folds into one

John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Shows Israel was chosen as 1st harvest but they served other Baalpeor. The Gentiles become the 1st harvest as the fig tree has two harvests.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Show Christ has come because the elders have their crowns.

Revelation 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

We can escape all these things that come to pass and stand before the Son of man

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

One coming like the days of Noah and one coming like the days of Lot. The irony is that you think there is only one coming and it is after wrath. Where the Word shows we are not appointed to wrath.

I could keep posting scriptures but you can't even understand these. There are five wise virgins and five foolish virgins. The wise are watching and ready.

Ironically we do agree with them that there is a post-wrath coming of Jesus.
But it is so weird that they don't have any post Wrath Rapture verses.
Not a single one.
And I suppose it's their desperation, that says ,"show me a pre-trib Rapture in Revelation".
I can't even repeat their argument without laughing.
I've learned over the years that their entire deal is emotional.
They are upset at the notion of a pre-trib rapture.
Their entire Doctrine is emotionally based. It's not that they have convincing Doctrine of a post wrath rapture, the heart of their deal is simply hoping to disprove us.

 

[rockytopva]

We must be warned of others who think they have the end times all figured out...

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. - Mark 13

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. - Acts 1

...The Father God in Heaven has put the times and the seasons in his own hand.
...The Lord Jesus encourages us to, "Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is."

 

[MA2444]

No verses
Just speculation

They're there, he just dont know where. One of them is
Releavation 3:10
10 “Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world..../NLT

the great time of testing is talking about the Tribulation. I think there's another one, I'll consult my notes and see Revelation 16 maybe?

 

[WPM]

In " before the flood" of mat 24
In " like manner" of Acts 1
In " the gathering of the bride" in mat 25
In Rev 14 gathering with a sickle.

NONE OF THOSE PRETRIB GATHERINGS HAS ANY JUDGEMENT.
Scoreboard reads:
" rebuilder 4"
"WPM 0"

I have already addressed these passages numerous times with you and you have ducked around the rebuttals every time. This is a Pretrib trait. That is because you have to. None of these prove a rapture of the Church, followed by a tribulation period, followed by a third coming of the Lord. You know it! That is why you just hurl out vague references without any quote, full reference or exegesis.

Present your evidence if you have it.

 

[WPM]

They're there, he just dont know where. One of them is
Releavation 3:10
10 “Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world..../NLT

the great time of testing is talking about the Tribulation. I think there's another one, I'll consult my notes and see Revelation 16 maybe?

LOL. I have several times. Again: your response is total avoidance. I will repost. The reader will see the avoidance that is required for Pretrib to fit.

Where is a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
Where is a 7 yr trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Revelation 3:10?

Revelation 3:10: "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep [Gr. tēreō] thee from [Gr. ek] the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

I showed you that the meaning you force on "keep thee from the hour of temptation" is wrong and how it is misrepresenting the original Greek in order to support your theory. Check that out in #4405. But you totally avoided that lengthy post.

What you miss is, the same assurance that we find in Revelation 3:10 is found in our Lord’s Prayer in John 17:15 (only it was written a few years before). The comparison cannot be lightly dismissed as both were penned by the same author in the same biblical time-period. Praying to His Father for His followers He petitioned: “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep [Gr. tēreō] them from [Gr. ek] the evil.”

Other similar Scripture shows us the sense of the original Greek. But you also totally ignored that. Check #4385. It is impossible to get you to address the multiple holes in your argument.

Christ does not ask the Father to ‘take them out’ of the world with its existing tribulation, suffering and inherent evil, as the Pretrib argues, rather the opposite, but that by the power of His Spirit, He would “keep them from” the surrounding evil. This is the same thought that Christ is presenting in Revelation 3:10. Interestingly, a careful comparison between these two passages reveals the remarkable similarity in their import and word construction.

“keep [Gr. tēreō] them from [Gr. ek] the evil” (John 17:15)
“keep [Gr. tēreō] thee from [Gr. ek] the hour of temptation” (Revelation 3:10)

It is God's heart to protect His children. He did it in the OT and He did it in the New Testament. He did it yesterday, He does it today, and He will do it tomorrow. He did not rapture Israel from similar plagues in Egypt. He did not remove Rahab and her family before He destroyed Jericho. No, He preserved His elect and brought them through those fierce times of wrath. He did not remove Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego from the fiery furnace. He did not rescue Daniel from the lion’s den. No, He preserved His elect during times of intense persecution by the enemy.

 

[WPM]

Ironically we do agree with them that there is a post-wrath coming of Jesus.
But it is so weird that they don't have any post Wrath Rapture verses.
Not a single one.
And I suppose it's their desperation, that says ,"show me a pre-trib Rapture in Revelation".
I can't even repeat their argument without laughing.
I've learned over the years that their entire deal is emotional.
They are upset at the notion of a pre-trib rapture.
Their entire Doctrine is emotionally based. It's not that they have convincing Doctrine of a post wrath rapture, the heart of their deal is simply hoping to disprove us.

Check the Op. It refutes your post! Why do Pretribbers avoid it???

 

[WPM]

I answered the question with "yes", the wicked will have to go through the great tribulation when the day of the Lord comes upon them like a thief in the night.

But, what do they not "escape"? They do not "escape" the "SUDDEN destruction" that accompanies the Lord's return. Hello! That is what the text actually says. Stop explaining away the words of Scripture. Pretribs have a major problem with taking the Bible literally. That is because it strongly forbids their doctrine.

 

[The Light]

Check the Op. It refutes your post! Why do Pretribbers avoid it???

No one is avoiding you.

You were caught changing the Greek to make you doctrine work. We don't have to change scripture to make our doctrine work.

 

[WPM]

No one is avoiding you.

You were caught changing the Greek to make you doctrine work. We don't have to change scripture to make our doctrine work.

More lies. You have no rebuttal. Your fight is with the original text and the English. That is why I quote both. You have no proof-texts. If you had them you would produce them.

 

[WPM]

It reads exactly like that. A Rapture mid trib. In Revelation 14.

That's the difference between us. I read the word of God and I report exactly what it says.

So quote the said passage with your "rapture" and then show me support for that elsewhere in Scripture?

 

[The Light]

But, what do they not "escape"? They do not "escape" the "SUDDEN destruction" that accompanies the Lord's return. Hello! That is what the text actually says. Stop explaining away the words of Scripture. Pretribs have a major problem with taking the Bible literally. That is because it strongly forbids their doctrine.

I nearly fell over laughing.

The Word goes to great lengths to tell us who the 144,000 are. But the Word is not good enough for your doctrine. You have to change the 144,000 of the 12 tribes to mean the Church.

Then you can't explain what the 144,000 are doing in heaven in Revelation 14 if the 144,000 are the Church.

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

None of the things that you post stand up to scripture except that immediately after the tribulation Jesus comes. But then you can't figure out that Jesus comes at the 6th seal.

 

[WPM]

I nearly feel over laughing.

The Word goes to great lengths to tell us who the 144,000 are. But the Word is not good enough for your doctrine. You have to change the 144,000 of the 12 tribes to mean the Church.

Then you can't explain what the 144,000 are doing in heaven in Revelation 14 if the 144,000 are the Church.

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

None of the things that you post stand up to scripture except that immediately after the tribulation Jesus comes. But then you can't figure out that Jesus comes at the 6th seal.

Dispensationalists give lip service to their golden rule of literal interpretation but their theology totally contradicts it. There is no biblical evidence that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by a 7-year tribulation, followed by 3rd coming. Where is it in Daniel 9? Where is it in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17? Where is it in Revelation 3:10? Where is it in Revelation 4:1? Nowhere! Not a dot or tittle. There is simply nothing there.

You spiritualize the literal passages and literalize the spiritual passages. Basically, it seems, Revelation should be taken absolutely literal but the countless literal passages throughout Scripture do not mean what they say. What is literal? What is spiritual? The actual wording, the context and repeated teaching of Scripture show us what is so.

 

[The Light]

More lies. You have no rebuttal. Your fight is with the original text and the English. That is why I quote both. You have no proof-texts. If you had them you would produce them.

Except you changed the Word of God to support your doctrine.

 

[The Light]

Dispensationalists give lip service to their golden rule of literal interpretation but their theology totally contradicts it. There is no biblical evidence that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by a 7-year tribulation, followed by 3rd coming. Where is it in Daniel 9? Where is it in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17? Where is it in Revelation 3:10? Where is it in Revelation 4:1? Nowhere! Not a dot or tittle. There is simply nothing there.

You spiritualize the literal passages and literalize the spiritual passages. Basically, it seems, Revelation should be taken absolutely literal but the countless literal passages throughout Scripture do not mean what they say. What is literal? What is spiritual? The actual wording, the context and repeated teaching of Scripture show us what is so.

Did I say there was a 7 year tribulation.

Once it is realized that there are two raptures, you doctrine goes up in smoke.

Two folds into one

John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Shows Israel was chosen as 1st harvest but they served other Baalpeor. The Gentiles become the 1st harvest as the fig tree has two harvests.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Show Christ has come because the elders have their crowns.

Revelation 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

We can escape all these things that come to pass and stand before the Son of man

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

One coming like the days of Noah and one coming like the days of Lot. The irony is that you think there is only one coming and it is after wrath. Where the Word shows we are not appointed to wrath.

I could keep posting scriptures but you can't even understand these. There are five wise virgins and five foolish virgins. The wise are watching and ready.

 

[WPM]

Except you changed the Word of God to support your doctrine.

Not so. Quite the opposite! I have presented the English and you have rejected it. I have presented the original and you have rejected it.

 

[WPM]

Did I say there was a 7 year tribulation.

Once it is realized that there are two raptures, you doctrine goes up in smoke.

Two folds into one

John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Shows Israel was chosen as 1st harvest but they served other Baalpeor. The Gentiles become the 1st harvest as the fig tree has two harvests.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Show Christ has come because the elders have their crowns.

Revelation 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

We can escape all these things that come to pass and stand before the Son of man

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

One coming like the days of Noah and one coming like the days of Lot. The irony is that you think there is only one coming and it is after wrath. Where the Word shows we are not appointed to wrath.

I could keep posting scriptures but you can't even understand these. There are five wise virgins and five foolish virgins. The wise are watching and ready.

Where is the word "Church" mentioned in Revelation 4? Nowhere!

There is only one fold today. There only ever will be one fold.

Jesus said, speaking to His Jewish converts, in John 10:14-16, “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

Christ was simply informing these Jewish believers that grace was going to be widened outside of Israel. The Gentiles were about to be brought into the same unitary fold of grace as the Jewish believers. The mentioning of two groupings within the body didn't indicate "two folds" any more than references to male and female, rich and poor, free and bond, Jew and Gentile represented multiple folds amongst the people of God. Rather it simply shows the variety of members within the one godly fold.

God's people are described as a singular nation called out from amongst the nations (plural). The objective unindoctrinated Bible student will see that the people of God have been united as one into a trans-national spiritual nation. Race doesn't matter anymore under the new covenant. It is all about grace. Your theology produces ethnic apartheid.

In His earthly ministry, and knowing what was coming, Christ asked the religious Jewish leaders, “Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder” (Matthew 21 42-44).

The kingdom has been taken from Israel as a nation and given to another nation. Who is that nation? It is the largely Gentile New Testament Church comprised of all believers (both Jew and Gentile).

The Church without any division is a distinct unitary nation. It is a holy nation. Natural ethnicity means nothing within it. Christians have their spiritual citizenship in heaven. There are no such thing as Christian nations today in the NT. That is your own invention. The problem with your theory is that you have a misconception of what the word "Christian" actually means. What you define as a "Christian" nation is far from it. Nations like the United States of America and United Kingdom possess governments, people and laws that are hostile to the truth of God.

1 Peter 2:9-10, “ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light. Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

· A chosen generation
· A royal priesthood
· An holy nation
· A peculiar people
· Who have been called out of darkness into his marvelous light.

The word rendered generation in the King James Version here is the Greek word genos meaning kin (abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective). It comes up 21 times in the NT and this is the only occasion it is interpreted generation. It simply means kindred, kind, stock or offspring.