The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think the place he has gone to prepare is the NHNE. After all that's where we will dwell with God forever.

I agree. There's really no debate about that in my mind. Jesus certainly didn't go to prepare a temporary place for us. So, it has to be the eternal NHNE that He is preparing for us. And He will be bringing that to us rather than taking us to it and then wherever He goes there we will be also for eternity.

So, the Lord will come again, and we will be with him in the place prepared in a twinkling of an eye.

Absolutely. Amen. We won't be just sitting there watching Him descend and watching the dead being resurrected, watching everyone go up to Him and watching other things happen while recording it all on video with our phones. No, it will all happen in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

Rev 21
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away (vanished), and there is no longer any sea.
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, arrayed like a bride adorned for her husband; 3 and then I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “See! The tabernacle of God is among men, and He will live among them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them [as their God,] 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be death; there will no longer be sorrow and anguish, or crying, or pain; for the former order of things has passed away.”

5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true [they are accurate, incorruptible, and trustworthy].” 6 And He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the one who thirsts I will give [water] from the fountain of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes [the world by adhering faithfully to Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior] will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.


If Jesus is to be believed, then the underlined above has the second coming written all over it.

Marr 24
35 Heaven and earth [as now known] will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son [in His humanity], but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man (the Messiah) will be just like the days of Noah.

Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Lk21
33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
34 “But be on guard, so that your hearts are not weighed down and depressed with the giddiness of debauchery and the nausea of self-indulgence and the worldly worries of life, and then that day [when the Messiah returns] will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who live on the face of all the earth. 36 But keep alert at all times [be attentive and ready], praying that you may have the strength and ability [to be found worthy and] to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man [at His coming].”

Absolutely. Those scriptures all correlate perfectly and are all very obviously speaking of the same event.

 

[Douggg]

We know from 1 Thess 4:14-17 that the place where He will receive us to Himself is "in the air" which refers to somewhere above the earth in the earth's atmosphere.

That's on the way to heaven, where the place in the mansions are.

What I believe does not make any sense at all is for Him to inexplicably leave heaven to receive us to Himself "in the air" only to then immediately turn around and bring us back with Him to heaven. Why would He do that? Why would He not instead just receive us to Himself directly in heaven, which He obviously could do if He wanted to? I've never seen any pretribs give a convincing explanation for this.

Because the Father sends Jesus for the rapture/resurrection to heaven. The rapture/resurrection is the redemption of our bodies.

1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Where does Revelation 20 describe Jesus as reigning on this present earth?

Revelation 20:4

Zechariah 14 the Lord of the host of saints that He will bring with him (verse 5) will be King in Jerusalem

 

[Douggg]

Absolutely. Amen. We won't be just sitting there watching Him descend and watching the dead being resurrected, watching everyone go up to Him and watching other things happen while recording it all on video with our phones. No, it will all happen in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

No one on earth is going to see the rapture/resurrection happen, only the shocking after effects. i.e. persons suddenly disappearing.

 

[WPM]

No one on earth is going to see the rapture/resurrection happen, only the shocking after effects. i.e. persons suddenly disappearing.

Pretribbers seem to think: if they keep repeating extra-biblical man-made statements like this (that they have been taught), it will somehow make it a biblical fact. No! That is not the way it works. That is called butchering the Word of God. This sums up Pretrib. You cannot show Scripture that teaches this. Quite the opposite. Scripture strongly forbids this.

Your promotion of the idea that Christ’s return will be secret and be unseen is refuted by multiples Scripture. There is nothing secret about His coming. All will see Him. The only secret relating to the coming of the Lord is in regards the actual time of His coming, not the nature or reality of it.

Jesus explains in Matthew 24:27: “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

Christ's coming shall be sudden as lightning. What is more sudden and spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid! It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret snatch in this text.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 26:64: “Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

This is repeated in Mark 14:62: “ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

Jesus said in Luke 21:26–27: “for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”

Acts 1:9-11 says, “while they (the disciples) beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

How did He go?

Literally, physically, visibly.

That is how He is going to return!

Revelation 1:7. Speaking of this climactic last day, John says, “Behold, he (Christ) cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him (the Jews): and all kindreds of the earth (the Gentile nations) shall wail because of him”

The second coming of Christ is not a secret event. Here we see the most public event of all time – the literal, visible, physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ. This passage unmistakably shows that the glorious Second Advent will be the most amazing public event ever. To such an extent that “every eye shall see him.” The swiftness of Christ’s coming and the speed of the rescue of the saints precludes any possibility of the wicked repenting.

 

[WPM]

Jesus did not call the places in the many mansions in heaven - a city. Jesus was saying to each Christian that He was returning to heaven, and will someday come again for the purpose of receiving to Himself and taken to that place He has prepared in heaven.

The New Jerusalem does not appear on the New earth until after the one thousand reign of Jesus on this present earth (to be destroyed) and the Great White Throne Judgement.

Both the New Jerusalem and the New earth are created after the Great White Throne Judgment.

Where does Scripture teach “the New Jerusalem” is “created after the Great White Throne Judgment"?

Because your time frame is messed up, you fail to see the timing and application of multiple passges. All the time, you do not have one single proof-text to bring to the table nothing to prove Pretrib.

Please address the many passages above that forbid Pretrib, if you can.

 

[MA2444]

Not so. You ran from the discussion bereft of any proof texts.

Show all these Scriptures that show a rapture before a 7-year trib followed by your 3rd coming then.

I will not hold my breath. You were right in your quote. You know it. Now everyone will see how devoid Pretrib is and how you have nothing to bring to the table.

Bring the evidence to the table!

I can do that and I shall do it, but will you even understand it? Will you even try to understand it. Some things are not stated explicitly in the Bible but they become explicit when one reads enough of the text to get the big picture. For example:

Little Susy sure did want an ice cream. Her mom said she had to pay for her treats herself out of her allowance money. Susy had waited all week long and all she could think about was a Fudgescicle! And today was Allowance day! So she took her .25 cents and got on her bike to accomplish that task! (Ok so the story is old back from when ice cream used to be a quarter, Lol). So off goes suzy down the street...

Where was Suzy going to? It's never explicitly stated in the story, but for those high IQ people (100 Lol) it is explicit where Suzy was going. But if you have a 60 IQ, well...you dont get it. But it doesnt say explicitly where she was going on her bike so that cant mean she's going to the Ice Cream shop! And you wont get it.

What did I just do? I said implicitly that your competance is in question. See the difference? They when you & your wife take the stand, your words make it explicit that you have very little comprehension. So in a way, I already know the answer that you & her will give to my proof of a pretrib rapture in scripture so why even bother? You prolly wont even read it but respond with names and blahblahblah your wrong because I say your wrong, and me saying that proves it! (It doesnt). Nevertheless, some truth needs to be written into this thread so I'll try.

It's called the doctrine of Imminency. This means that Jesus could return at any moment. There is no prophetic scriptures which need to come to pass before Jesus comes for His Bride.

Revelation 16:15
15 “Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.”.../NLT

Matthew 24:23-28
23 “Then if anyone tells you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah,’ or ‘There he is,’ don’t believe it.
24 For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God’s chosen ones.
25 See, I have warned you about this ahead of time.

26 “So if someone tells you, ‘Look, the Messiah is out in the desert,’ don’t bother to go and look. Or, ‘Look, he is hiding here,’ don’t believe it!
27 For as the lightning flashes in the east and shines to the west, so it will be when the Son of Man[e] comes.
28 Just as the gathering of vultures shows there is a carcass nearby, so these signs indicate that the end is near.[f].../NLT

V23 says we dont have to go look for him when He comes to rapture the church, here He is! There He is! Lies. He will come so fast and it will be over so fast that (many will wail).
V24 They will be putting on demonstrations of the AC's power as God. Look what I can do! And they will be supernatural exploits and will deceive many people.
V25 says...Don't say I didnt warn you!!
V26 & 27 say it will happen as fast as lightning, and boom it's over. I'm gone.
V28 compares how, when we see vultures circling we know a carcass is nearby, so when the rapture happens, you will know that the end is near.

There's going to be a lot of fence sitters left behind and they will know they were wrong about the rapture and their need to have been ready. And suddenly these people will become passionate about the Lord and not be fence sitters any more.

Tow are in the field, one is taken and the other left. Two women at the mill, one taken, one left. If the rapture happens post trib, where are they left behind at?

Holding to a post trib view creates contradictions in scripture. I've list some before and you just ignore them, offering no explaination about what certain verses mean if it isnt a pretrib rapture.

 

[WPM]

Matthew 24:23-28
23 “Then if anyone tells you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah,’ or ‘There he is,’ don’t believe it.
24 For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God’s chosen ones.
25 See, I have warned you about this ahead of time.

26 “So if someone tells you, ‘Look, the Messiah is out in the desert,’ don’t bother to go and look. Or, ‘Look, he is hiding here,’ don’t believe it!
27 For as the lightning flashes in the east and shines to the west, so it will be when the Son of Man[e] comes.
28 Just as the gathering of vultures shows there is a carcass nearby, so these signs indicate that the end is near.[f].../NLT

V23 says we dont have to go look for him when He comes to rapture the church, here He is! There He is! Lies. He will come so fast and it will be over so fast that (many will wail).
V24 They will be putting on demonstrations of the AC's power as God. Look what I can do! And they will be supernatural exploits and will deceive many people.
V25 says...Don't say I didnt warn you!!
V26 & 27 say it will happen as fast as lightning, and boom it's over. I'm gone.
V28 compares how, when we see vultures circling we know a carcass is nearby, so when the rapture happens, you will know that the end is near.

There's going to be a lot of fence sitters left behind and they will know they were wrong about the rapture and their need to have been ready. And suddenly these people will become passionate about the Lord and not be fence sitters any more.

Tow are in the field, one is taken and the other left. Two women at the mill, one taken, one left. If the rapture happens post trib, where are they left behind at?

Holding to a post trib view creates contradictions in scripture. I've list some before and you just ignore them, offering no explaination about what certain verses mean if it isnt a pretrib rapture.

You just admitted here what I alleged in the Op: Pretrib has nothing in Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of the Lord. What you presented exposes Pretrib. You present Pretrib as some mythical cryptic esoteric incomprehensible theory that can only be worked out by those who have read The Left Behind novels. It seems to be the key to unlocking your doctrine. No! Never! The Holy Spirit does a better job!

We all believe in the catching away. But you have no rapture Scripture to support a 7 year trib (or any trib period) following. You just reinforced my thesis.

I have addressed these Scriptures multiples times and you ignore and duck around them. You have to. They do not say what you suggest they say.

I will repost.

Jesus said in Luke 17:24-34: “For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

“one shall taken, and the other shall be left”

If we look closer at this passage we learn, “in that night (when He shall Come) there shall be two in one bed; the one shall be paraleemftheésetai (or) taken, and the other shall be afetheésetai (or) left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be paraleemftheésetai (or) taken, and the other afetheésetai (or) left.”

It is interesting when we look at the meaning of this Greek word paraleemftheésetai used here. Strong’s says that it indicates, “to receive near, i.e. associate with oneself in any familiar or intimate act or relation.” The word is interpreted elsewhere in the King James Version as ‘receive’, ‘take unto’ or ‘take with’. The company that are therefore received by Christ in this passage are those that have been brought into an intimate mystical union with Him through salvation; they are His elect. This narrative is unquestionably referring to the catching away of the saints, and the marriage of the lamb.

This is the same word that Christ used in John 14:3 when He promised His disciples that He would come again to receive them, saying, “In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and paraleémpsomai (or) receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

Interestingly, the word used here to describe the second party in view is the Greek word afetheésetai, which carries the meaning to forsake, put away or lay aside. This is the fate that awaits the wicked alone when Christ comes in all His glory.

No one that has taken the time to examine the meaning of the Greek words for “taken” and “left” can surely deny that the definition of “taken” is manifestly positive and the definition of “left” is patently negative.

Q. What then happens to those left behind?

A. The Lord’s solemn warning in the midst of the aforementioned narrative confirms the answer, and is in complete agreement with Christ’s unambiguous preceding comments in the same chapter, and every other explicit passage in Scripture. He makes it abundantly clear that instant and complete destruction befalls the wicked. He solemnly counsels the disciples, “Remember Lot's wife.”

Remember Lot's

Q. Why must we “remember Lot's wife”? What befell her?

She got caught in the escape out of Sodom because her heart was still there. Despite being fully aware of the impending destruction, Lot's wife’s heart was located in Sodom and towards the awful iniquity; this was despite the fact that she also desired to be with the people of God. Notwithstanding, Genesis 19:26 says of Lot, “his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.”

Her foolish refusal to once-and-for-all turn her back on Sodom caused her to be instantly and completely destroyed. Through her un-preparedness, she was immediately cast into a lost hell – damned and doomed for all eternity – without hope and without Christ.

What Christ is therefore warning in this reading is this: ‘Remember Lot's wife because she was found wanting on the day when God finally poured out His judgment upon the wicked; be warned because His second coming will similarly expose the heart of every hypocrite, although on this occasion it will be for the very final time. Those left behind will face the same punishment as Lot’s wife – total destruction.

When Noah left the world of his day and entered into the ark
there were many left lying in beds and grinding at mills to receive
the wrath of God and therefore destruction. The same happened in Lot's day. The same will happen at Christ's Coming.

After Christ described the destruction that accompanies His return, He talks about one being rescued the other being destroyed. Jesus tells us that those left behind will suffer the same total, immediate and awful doom that Noah's world and Sodom suffered in their day (Luke 17). Once the ark door closes that is it. It is too late.

Where ever the carcass is there the eagles will be gathered together

The disciples then ask: “Where, Lord?” Christ replies: “Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.” Eagles flock to where there is prey. Where bodies lie that is where they will congregate. Death and destruction mark the aftermath of God’s judgment. Whilst God’s people are rescued the wicked perish in destruction.

The eagles devour those left behind. Rev 19 correlates.

 

[WPM]

Revelation 16:15
15 “Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.”.../NLT

We all believe in His impending coming. That proves nothing. Where is your Pretrib rapture in Revelation?

 

[Douggg]

Your promotion of the idea that Christ’s return will be secret and be unseen is refuted by multiples Scripture.

No, I am not saying that Jesus's Second Coming back to stand upon the earth will be secret, nor unseen. Here is a visual I made of that day.

 

[Douggg]

Where does Scripture teach “the New Jerusalem” is “created after the Great White Throne Judgment"?

This present earth is destroyed before the Great White Throne Judgment takes place. Revelation 20:11

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Then in Revelaton 21, John sees the vision of the new heaven, new earth, New Jerusalem.

The New Jerusalem does come down to this present earth, but to the new earth.

The new earth is a promise, not yet a place...

2Peter3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Douggg]

Because your time frame is messed up, you fail to see the timing and application of multiple passges. All the time, you do not have one single proof-text to bring to the table nothing to prove Pretrib.

Please address the many passages above that forbid Pretrib, if you can.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

You don't believe that Jesus can come for the rapture/resurrection pre-70th week, i.e. such an hour as you think not, correct ?.

 

[MA2444]

You just admitted here what I alleged in the Op: Pretrib has nothing in Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of the Lord. What you presented exposes Pretrib. You present Pretrib as some mythical cryptic esoteric incomprehensible theory that can only be worked out by those who have read The Left Behind novels. It seems to be the key to unlocking your doctrine. No! Never! The Holy Spirit does a better job!

See? I told you you wouldn't understand it. You just explicitly stated that you dont understand it, it is...incomprehensible to you, lol. There's that 60 IQ shining through for you.

We all believe in the catching away. But you have no rapture Scripture to support a 7 year trib (or any trib period) following. You just reinforced my thesis.

I have addressed these Scriptures multiples times and you ignore and duck around them. You have to. They do not say what you suggest they say.

Don't get ahead of me, and I aint there yet. I'll show that in due time. There's two points that you need to address here first. Let's try to be precise, ok? So if we both believe that a catching away takes place and you insist that it happens post trib.
When there is a catching away of us, we go to meet Him in the air, right? Yes or no.

Scripture says that His 2nd coming will be to the Mt of Olives and He comes all the way to the earth. If some are caught away...is it before He comes to the earth, or does He go back up into the air to meet us, or what?

It's either in the air or it isnt, and it sure says that we shall meet Him in the cloud! (should I post that for you? Surely you've read that before)

 

[MA2444]

We all believe in His impending coming. That proves nothing. Where is your Pretrib rapture in Revelation?

Ok so we agree that His coming to catch us away, is, Imminent meaning it can happen at any moment? Is that, right? We agree on this?

Pull your panties back down outta your crack for now about it has to be pretrib. I'll get to that soon enough, lol.

 

[Davidpt]

No one on earth is going to see the rapture/resurrection happen

Why not? Take the following, for instance.

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


Why is that event seen by those dwelling on the earth but no one sees a Pretrib rapture taking place? I can tell you why no one on the earth witnesses a Pretrib rapture taking place, and that is because no such thing takes place to begin with. Nothing to see or not see here then. You see it making sense that no one sees a Pretrib rapture taking place and what all that is involving, including the raising of the righteous dead that precedes it. While I see it making sense that the reason no one sees these things to begin with is because no such events happen to begin with, meaning a resurrection of the dead followed by a rapture prior to great tribulation beginning.

But even so, nothing anyone submits is ever going to change your mind. What will change your mind eventually is when we are undeniably in the days of great tribulation worldwide and that you and your Pretrib believing crowd are still here. How can you still insist that a Pretrib rapture precedes great tribulation if when it begins you are still here? Of course though, Preterists and those that align themselves with Preterists, would have us believe Matthew 24:21 is already in the past. Therefore, it's impossible no matter how you look at it for you and Pretribbers to still be here during great tribulation, if great tribulation is already in the past, right?

Even if you are wrong about the timing of the rapture, and clearly you are, the last ones that should be trying to straighten you out are Preterists and those that align themselves with Preterist thinking per Matthew 24:21 but are not Preterists themselves. They need to fix their own mess first, then maybe they can help you fix your mess, since both views are a mess, that great tribulation is already in the past, and that a rapture precedes great tribulation.

 

[WPM]

See? I told you you wouldn't understand it. You just explicitly stated that you dont understand it, it is...incomprehensible to you, lol. There's that 60 IQ shining through for you.



Don't get ahead of me, and I aint there yet. I'll show that in due time. There's two points that you need to address here first. Let's try to be precise, ok? So if we both believe that a catching away takes place and you insist that it happens post trib.
When there is a catching away of us, we go to meet Him in the air, right? Yes or no.

Scripture says that His 2nd coming will be to the Mt of Olives and He comes all the way to the earth. If some are caught away...is it before He comes to the earth, or does He go back up into the air to meet us, or what?

It's either in the air or it isnt, and it sure says that we shall meet Him in the cloud! (should I post that for you? Surely you've read that before)

We meet Him in the air and return with Him to a regenerated and perfected earth.

 

[WPM]

Ok so we agree that His coming to catch us away, is, Imminent meaning it can happen at any moment? Is that, right? We agree on this?

Pull your panties back down outta your crack for now about it has to be pretrib. I'll get to that soon enough, lol.

You're very crude in your language. Can you tone it down? There are young Christians watching on.

I don't think your mother will appreciate your language.

Not imminent, impending. It is approaching.

 

[GTW27]

Ok so we agree that His coming to catch us away, is, Imminent meaning it can happen at any moment? Is that, right? We agree on this?

Pull your panties back down outta your crack for now about it has to be pretrib. I'll get to that soon enough, lol.

Blessings Ma2444! Actually these things must be given to be understood. It is said, one is taken and one is left no matter how it is phrased. Let us look at that. If one is taken and one is left does this imply that one is in Christ Jesus and one is not? After all The Lord has said that He has a special possession on The Day He acts. He will return for those that are His. I would think to most believers, and perhaps you, that they would think the one that is taken is the one of the two, that is His special possession, and the one left is the one that is truly not, as The Lord knows those that are His. This is what it looks like as we read the scriptures. But I tell you truly that these ends times are designed to catch many unaware. That is why we are to watch. And that is why Jesus gave us the warnings of these times. I would think that if you are pretrib you would probably agree with what I have written here, but I could be wrong. I do not come to argue over doctrine but I do give hope to some and cause many to think. That is what these words here are, words to consider. In the beginning of my journey there were two of us(two walking across a field). A training was given to both that would not be believed, and yet is true. One laid down his life(me) while the other could not. Near the end of the training the enemy came into the one while the other(me) suffered at the hands of the enemy. Horrible unspeakable things. So in truth 2 men were walking across a field and one was taken(by the enemy or death) and one is left. I am that one that is left. And I asked, who are those dressed in White, and he said, you know, these are those that came out of The Great Tribulation.

 

[Douggg]

Why not? Take the following, for instance.

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Why is that event seen by those dwelling on the earth but no one sees a Pretrib rapture taking place?

Because the nature of the two witnesses coming back to life is not that of the rapture/resurrection which is redemption of the bodies of believers. The rapture/resurrection change into eternal, incorruptible bodies with happen in the twinkling of an eye, at the shout of Jesus, with voice of the archangel, and trump of God.

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

But even so, nothing anyone submits is ever going to change your mind

Actually I moved from being pre-trib to being anytime rapture view. Pre-trib maintains that the rapture must happen before the 70th week starts. Differently, I maintain that the rapture must happen before the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood, anytime between now and then.

Pre-trib Rapture view is before the covenant is confirm for one week (seven years) in Daniel 9:27.

Anytime Rapture view is anytime before the Antichrist's act of going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God in 2Thesslaonains2:4.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because the Father sends Jesus for the rapture/resurrection to heaven. The rapture/resurrection is the redemption of our bodies.

1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

How is this an explanation for why He would descend to "the air" and why we would meet Him there "in the air" rather than just meeting Him in heaven if that is supposedly where we're going, anyway? You always dodge the tough questions, Doug. It shows the weakness of your doctrine that there are so many questions that you can't answer convincingly at all.

Revelation 20:4.

You are saying that verse shows Jesus reigning on the earth? Where?

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

There's no mention of anyone being on earth here. I was asking you where in Revelation 20 it is mentioned specifically. Can you acknowledge that it's not?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You're very crude in your language. Can you tone it down? There are young Christians watching on.

I don't think your mother will appreciate your language.

Not imminent, impending. It is approaching.

Some of these pre-trib people here remind me of this:

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?