Teresa of Avila and Watering the Garden

[Waiting on him]

Faith without works is dead.

I better not ask epi for fear your head would explode...

I’ll be expecting the scripture that supports justification by works.

 

[Episkopos]

Didn’t you just say Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness?

Phinehas was also justified...same words...for killing idolators. So then are we to kill idolators too in order to be justified?

God CHOOSES whom He will justify. There is no outer pattern to follow. It is an inner pattern.

Also Abraham NEVER declared himself as righteous...as we so often mistakenly do. He would have seen himself as unworthy.

When people think they are religiously accepted by God...they aren't. It is with the humble that justification comes...and humble don't feel very justified. So we see the conundrum of human experience. Those who say they are justified...are NOT. And many who say they are unworthy of God...are indeed justified.

read the bible more carefully. Most Christians are like the Publican...who justify themselves and judge others.

Pray about it.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is much religious confusion in the churches of today.

Doing good comes from the conscience...knowing what is good and evil...from the point of view of men. So we can know well enough that helping others is good...whereas killing them is wrong.

So on the basic level of what men can do...we can choose to act according to righteousness. OUR choice.

But if we want to do more than just what is right by choice...we want to walk perfectly with God...then we need to enter INTO Christ to walk in HIS power. Then the works are of God...not us. The works then are holy.

All you have to do is stop thinking by religious indoctrination...think like a little child...and you will understand the difference between what men can do and what God can do.

Why do you tell me I'm indoctrinated?
You're indoctrinated too.
What you BELIEVE IS YOUR DOCTRINE.

I had to leave a church. I had to study both Catholic doctrine and Protestant doctrine...I am the least here to be indoctrinated into any belief. Of course, the problem is we all think WE'RE RIGHT and others are wrong.

As to the above:

1. Man cannot depend on his conscience UNLESS it is properly formed by the teachings of God.

Some mens' conscience is corrupt...
Some men don't even have a conscience---think of asocial persons.
We can only depend on our conscience when it is in tune with God's commandments and all His teachings.

2. As I said in the prior post...you ARE conflating man's righteousness with God's righteousness. As philosophy is concerned, you're 100% right. As theology is concerned, righteous just means being right with God.

We are right with God even if we do wrong...because we have been declared JUSTIFIED....

I agree with your statement here and I think the disagreement is in the wording only:
(not the wording of your statement...but words in general. Spirituality is not that easiest subject to explain).

But if we want to do more than just what is right by choice...we want to walk perfectly with God...then we need to enter INTO Christ to walk in HIS power. Then the works are of God...not us. The works then are holy.

 

[Episkopos]

I’ll be expecting the scripture that supports justification by works.

Rom. 2:13 "for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified."

Are you just a hearer of the law....or the doer? Are you obedient or disobedient?

 

[GodsGrace]

Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,


Pax!

Gosh I hate when persons post scripture with no explanation.

Works do not save us. Even the CC teaches this.
Ephesians 2:8 and Galatians 2:16 is accepted by the CC and it also teaches that we are saved by faith alone.

Sanctification is a different story...
then I agree with what you've written above.

If we "get saved" walking down some isle in a church....and there is no transformation,
chances are that we are not saved.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,


Pax!

Faith without works is dead...Faith without Spirit is no justification...where the Spirit of God is...there is Life. The works which justify are the Works of God. All those above are Spiritual works of God and doing them in the strength of the flesh ...are more dead works.

1 Corinthians 6:11
[11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


We can do “good works” all day long and deceive ourselves into believing we are good and therefore justified...but the Works of the Spirit are greater works than these and only given and fulfilled by and through Living Faith in the Lord’s Name where the Spirit of God is there is Life everlasting.

 

[Waiting on him]

Phinehas was also justified...same words...for killing idolators. So then are we to kill idolators too in order to be justified?

God CHOOSES whom He will justify. There is no outer pattern to follow. It is an inner pattern.

Also Abraham NEVER declared himself as righteous...as we so often mistakenly do. He would have seen himself as unworthy.

When people think they are religiously accepted by God...they aren't. It is with the humble that justification comes...and humble don't feel very justified. So we see the conundrum of human experience. Those who say they are justified...are NOT. And many who say they are unworthy of God...are indeed justified.

read the bible more carefully. Most Christians are like the Publican...who justify themselves and judge others.

Pray about it.

John 6:28-29 KJV
[28] Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? [29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


Tecarta Bible
Meditate on this for a while.

 

[GodsGrace]

Rom. 2:13 "for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified."

Are you just a hearer of the law....or the doer? Are you obedient or disobedient?

The words Justified and Sanctified were used interchangeably in the N.T.

They are NOW understood and that is how we are to use the two terms.

Otherwise, scripture will conflict itself and there will be confusion.

 

[Episkopos]

Why do you tell me I'm indoctrinated?
You're indoctrinated too.
What you BELIEVE IS YOUR DOCTRINE.

I had to leave a church. I had to study both Catholic doctrine and Protestant doctrine...I am the least here to be indoctrinated into any belief. Of course, the problem is we all think WE'RE RIGHT and others are wrong.

As to the above:

1. Man cannot depend on his conscience UNLESS it is properly formed by the teachings of God.

Some mens' conscience is corrupt...
Some men don't even have a conscience---think of asocial persons.
We can only depend on our conscience when it is in tune with God's commandments and all His teachings.

2. As I said in the prior post...you ARE conflating man's righteousness with God's righteousness. As philosophy is concerned, you're 100% right. As theology is concerned, righteous just means being right with God.

We are right with God even if we do wrong...because we have been declared JUSTIFIED....

I agree with your statement here and I think the disagreement is in the wording only:
(not the wording of your statement...but words in general. Spirituality is not that easiest subject to explain).

But if we want to do more than just what is right by choice...we want to walk perfectly with God...then we need to enter INTO Christ to walk in HIS power. Then the works are of God...not us. The works then are holy.

A born again person has a renewed conscience....so that they become as the righteous ones...like children in regards to evil. Now they can serve righteousness...and maybe even go further and enter into Christ...if they seek hard for that.

But where do we go from a new birth? To an indoctrinating man-made church?
Or to God?

Almost nobody today goes to God. There is just so much man-made ministry stuff available. It is the easy way. The wide road of religion.

But God is available to they who seek after Him.

very few will try this however.

 

[GodsGrace]

Phinehas was also justified...same words...for killing idolators. So then are we to kill idolators too in order to be justified?

God CHOOSES whom He will justify. There is no outer pattern to follow. It is an inner pattern.

Also Abraham NEVER declared himself as righteous...as we so often mistakenly do. He would have seen himself as unworthy.

When people think they are religiously accepted by God...they aren't. It is with the humble that justification comes...and humble don't feel very justified. So we see the conundrum of human experience. Those who say they are justified...are NOT. And many who say they are unworthy of God...are indeed justified.

read the bible more carefully. Most Christians are like the Publican...who justify themselves and judge others.

Pray about it.

You're sounding like a calvinist.
(by saying that GOD chooses who will be justified).
That's the same as saying that God chooses who will be saved.

I am right with God.

That's pride?
Can I not know if I'm saved or not?
HOW DO YOU know you're saved?
If you don't know ,,, how do you have joy more abundant?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

John 6:28-29 KJV
[28] Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? [29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


Tecarta Bible
Meditate on this for a while.

If you do battle with one side of the dialectic, you come out lopsided. But you already know this, I think.

 

[Episkopos]

John 6:28-29 KJV
[28] Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? [29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


Tecarta Bible
Meditate on this for a while.

Actually your verse is not saying what you think...the work of God is NOT what you can do. God's work is ...that you believe TO Jesus. To enter INTO Him.

No one can believe TO Jesus...to be where He is...unless taken there by the Father. It is God's power that does this.

if you are not where Jesus is you will have no victory over all sin. You will walk as a normal human being...and not in the victorious walk of Jesus Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

A born again person has a renewed conscience....so that they become as the righteous ones...like children in regards to evil. Now they can serve righteousness...and maybe even go further and enter into Christ...if they seek hard for that.

But where do we go from a new birth? To an indoctrinating man-made church?
Or to God?

Almost nobody today goes to God. There is just so much man-made ministry stuff available. It is the easy way. The wide road of religion.

But God is available to they who seek after Him.

very few will try this however.

Of course I agree that with true repentance and regeneration come a new conscience.
This is what I said. And I also believe if we are truly born again of God,,,we ARE IN CHRIST.

And where do we go?
I met Jesus first.

Then I sought a church.
Left the CC, entered a denominational Protestant church.

If you're talking about all this stuff on YouTube which should not even be watched by a new Christian...then I agree. It's a world of confusion.

 

[Episkopos]

You're sounding like a calvinist.
(by saying that GOD chooses who will be justified).
That's the same as saying that God chooses who will be saved.

I am right with God.

That's pride?
Can I not know if I'm saved or not?
HOW DO YOU know you're saved?
If you don't know ,,, how do you have joy more abundant?

Why do you compare the things of God with a man-made opinion?

Where do you think Calvin got his unbalanced view from? From the truth.

So then the truth SOMETIMES sounds like what Calvin spoke of...and SOMETINES sounds like what Arminius spoke of. But neither is right.

Again...if you can't differentiate God from man...you get what you read about in theologies from men.

 

[Waiting on him]

Rom. 2:13 "for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified."

Are you just a hearer of the law....or the doer? Are you obedient or disobedient?

My justification through Christ enables me to establish the law

 

[GodsGrace]

Why do you compare the things of God with a man-made opinion?

Where do you think Calvin got his unbalanced view from? From the truth.

So then the truth SOMETIMES sounds like what Calvin spoke of...and SOMETINES sounds like what Arminius spoke of. But neither is right.

Again...if you can't differentiate God from man...you get what you read about in theologies from men.

I've lost you.
But I have to leave now.

Do you need scripture to show the interchangeability of justification and sanctification?
Easy to do.

How did Calvin get his view from the truth? I don't find calvinism to be the truth.

How is it POSSIBLE for me, or any Christian, not to be able to differentiate between God and man??

Later.

P.S. I mean, I agree that God chooses who will be saved...but because that person accepts HIS conditions...
Calvinism believes it is arbitrary.

 

[Episkopos]

Most believers steer always the same course...either always tuning left or always turning right. So they go in circles all their lives.

(of course some will stick with somewhere in the middle and cling to that course until they hit a rock or cliff...only to sink or be shipwrecked. The point is that the blind will always do the same things)

But to steer a course one sometimes needs to steer to the right and sometimes to the left. The blind can't comprehend this...since they only know left and right. A proper course is far beyond the ability of the blind.

So then the blind argue dogmatics with the blind.

 

[Episkopos]

My justification through Christ enables me to establish the law

See the arrogance that indoctrination brings. Claim it and be judged by THAT standard. So if you fail at the law of God...you will be judged for it.

What about humility?

Pray about it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Most believers steer always the same course...either always tuning left or always turning right. So they go in circles all their lives.

(of course some will stick with somewhere in the middle and cling to that course until they hit a rock or cliff...only to sink or be shipwrecked. The point is that the blind will always do the same things)

But to steer a course one sometimes needs to steer to the right and sometimes to the left. The blind can't comprehend this...since they only know left and right. A proper course is far beyond the ability of the blind.

So then the blind argue dogmatics with the blind.

LOL
You're arguing dogmatics!
Are you also blind?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

This is good exercise for us. If we get it unbalanced, another can present the other side of the dialectic. Its such an odd way for us "either/or" westerners to try to think! I wish I didn't have to go soon!