Tasted Death for every Man !

[keithr]

notice it says in verse thirteen , LOOKING for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our Great GOD and SAVOIR , JESUS CHRIST .
NOW HOW can one who BELIEVES NOT ON HIM , EVEN BE LOOKING FOR HIS COMING .
Exactly . they wont be , cause they dont BELIEVE On HIM . so you see
even the scrips you did bring , SHOW US the DIRE NEED TO BELEIVE .

You seem to be arguing about something different! The thread is supposed to be discussing whether or not Jesus died for all mankind or just a smaller number of people.

I never at any point mentioned anything about believing, and I certainly didn't deny that in order to have eternal life one must believe in Jesus and his Father, almighty God YHVH. I mentioned that those waiting, looking for Jesus' return, were Christians (those who already believe).

 

[keithr]

The consistent testimony of Scripture reveals that those who reject Christ are presently under God’s wrath.

Well indeed. Not everyone is called to be a Christian during this present age, and nobody who lived before Jesus' ministry was called to be a Christian. Hebrews 11:39-40

(39) These all, having had testimony given to them through their faith, didn’t receive the promise,​

(40) God having provided some better thing concerning us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.​

Matthew 22:14

(14) For many are called, but few chosen.”​

Many are called, not everyone is called. Those who are not called still haven't secured eternal life, and can't until after their resurrection. God hasn't given up on them!

John 3:36
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

If people don't believe before they die, then they must believe after they have been resurrected. Everyone who wants eternal life must believe Jesus, otherwise they will suffer the second death.

Romans 1:18
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness."

God’s wrath is actively revealed against sin and rebellion, not deferred until a later time.

Context:

(21) Because, knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, neither gave thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened.​

(26) For this reason, God gave them up to vile passions [God's wrath on them revealed]. For their women changed the natural function into that which is against nature.​

(27) Likewise also the men, leaving the natural function of the woman, burned in their lust toward one another, men doing what is inappropriate with men, and receiving in themselves the due penalty of their error.​

Ephesians 2:3
"Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

We were all under God's wrath (destined for eternal death) before we believed and became Christians. Those who don't become Christians before their death remain under that wrath, i.e. they remain still under condemnation of sin and destined to eternal death.

Romans 5:18-19

(18) So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.​

(19) For as through the one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, many will be made righteous.​

Apart from Christ, all are naturally under the state of wrath due to sin.

Correct. That is why after their resurrection during the 1,000 years reign of Christ everyone must learn to believe in Christ, otherwise they will suffer the second death and will not gain eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

Eternal destruction is the destiny of those who reject the gospel, contradicting universalist interpretations.

Correct, but you missed out the context again - the preceding and following verses says:

(7) and to give relief to you who are afflicted with us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire,​

(10) when he comes in that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired among all those who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.​

The judgement and punishment for those that willingly disobey, after having learnt during the 1,000 reign (when Satan the deceiver will be locked up so he can't deceive with his lies) the full knowledge and truth about God and Jesus, will be punished with the second death, and this happens at the end of the 1,000 year reign.

Hebrews 10:26-27
"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

Willful rejection of Christ results in certain judgment, not eventual reconciliation.

Correct. There is only one redemption price paid. Jesus is now immortal, so he can't pay a second redemption price - Hebrews 6:4-6 (WEB):

(4) For concerning those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,​

(5) and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,​

(6) and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God for themselves again, and put him to open shame.​

Revelation 20:15
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

The ultimate fate of unbelievers is eternal separation from God, not universal restoration.

Correct (almost). At the end of the 1,000 year reign those who still refuse to obey God, and side with Satan, will be punished with the second death - that is eternal death, the opposite of eternal life; it's not eternal life separated from God. Romans 6:23 (WEB):

(23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

The penalty is death, not separation from God.

 

[Marvelloustime]

To the trenches my friend . Let GOD be true but every man a liar . Sound out truth and point TO THE DIRE
necessity of JESUS the CHRIST .

@amigo de christo

 

[brightfame52]

The Captain of our Salvation !

The every man in Heb 2:9 who Jesus tasted death for, are the same by His taste of death in Vs 10 became to them and them only, the Captain of their Salvation !

Heb 2:9-10

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings[His Death].

To be the Captain of their Salvation also describes the fact that He was and is 100% responsible for their Salvation. God made it His responsibility to save them and consequently bring them to Glory.

This coincides with Jesus words in Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

It also fulfills what Isaiah wrote Isa 9:6

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The government of the Salvation of His People is upon His shoulders !

This speaks of His Spiritual rule, prince hood. In fact that word Captain in Heb 2:10 also means Prince Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

So His tasting Death was for the Salvation of His People, you cant separate His Death from Salvation !

 

[brightfame52]

We know that the every man in Heb 2:9 that Christ by the Grace of God, tasted death for, wasn't every individual without exception, because His death was a manifestation of Gods Grace towards them, and so by His death they are Justified by His Grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Heb 2:9

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Those He died for are Justified by His Death/Blood Rom 5:9 !
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood or Death, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

And we know everyman individually is not Justified ! 2

 

[keithr]

And we know everyman individually is not Justified !

Not everyone is justified - yet! John 12:46-48 (WEB):

(46) I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in the darkness.​

(47) If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn’t believe, I don’t judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.​

(48) He who rejects me, and doesn’t receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.​

Christians are justified before they die because God has worked in them to draw them to belief in Jesus - John 6:44 (WEB):

(44) No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day.​

This is not their doing that they can boast about, but it is a gift from God - Ephesians 2:8-9 (WEB):

(8) for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,​

(9) not of works, that no one would boast.​

Those that God does not draw to belief and faith in Jesus in this life, are still saved from death by Jesus' sacrifice, and they will be resurrected to life (human life, on the earth) at the beginning of Jesus' 1,000 years reign on the earth. Then they will be brought to belief and faith in Jesus and God. As Jesus said, the same word that he spoke during his earthly ministry will be what will judge those people - if they believe and remain faithful then they will be granted eternal life; if they don't remain faithful and instead they side with Satan, then they will be punished with the second death (which is eternal because there will not be another resurrection).

So Christians have their trial of faith in their earthly lives, when it is more difficult - the narrow, more difficult to enter way - Matthew 7:13-14 (WEB):

(13) “Enter in by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter in by it.​

(14) How narrow is the gate, and restricted is the way that leads to life! Few are those who find it.​

Therefore Christians, if they remain faithful until their death, after their resurrection have already gained eternal life - Revelation 20:6 (WEB):

(6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.​

The rest of mankind have an easier trial during the 1,000 years reign - Isaiah 35:8-10 (WEB):

(8) A highway will be there, a road, and it will be called The Holy Way. The unclean shall not pass over it, but it will be for those who walk in the Way. Wicked fools will not go there.​

(9) No lion will be there, nor will any ravenous animal go up on it. They will not be found there; but the redeemed will walk there.​

(10) Then Yahweh’s ransomed ones will return, and come with singing to Zion; and everlasting joy will be on their heads. They will obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing will flee away.”​

At the end of the 1,000 years reign Satan is released to test the rest of mankind - Revelation 20:7-8 (WEB):

(7) And after the thousand years, Satan will be released from his prison,​

(8) and he will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war; the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.​

Those that fail this test and side with Satan will perish - Revelation 20:9 (WEB):

(9) They went up over the width of the earth, and surrounded the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. Fire came down out of heaven from God and devoured them.

Those that pass this final test will be justified and be granted eternal life.

Acts 13:38-39 (WEB):

(38) Be it known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man is proclaimed to you remission of sins,​

(39) and by him everyone who believes is justified from all things, from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.​

Everyone who believes is justified and will have eternal life, whether they believe and become Christians before they die, or whether they believe after they have been resurrected. Only the eternal reward differs - Christians being granted a better resurrection as part of a new spiritual creation, joint heirs with Jesus, adopted as sons of God with homes in God's house (John 14:2 - "In my Father’s house are many homes. If it weren’t so, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place for you"); the rest of mankind will live on the earth, which will be restored to the original paradise like the garden of Eden.

 

[brightfame52]

@keithr

Not everyone is justified - yet! John 12:46-48 (WEB):

Correct bcause He didnt taste death for everyone, just the Justified !

 

[keithr]

Correct bcause He didnt taste death for everyone, just the Justified !

There are many verses of Scripture that suggest otherwise, e.g. :

Romans 5:18 (WEB):

(18) So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.​

Titus 2:11 (ESV):

(11) For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,​

1 Timothy 2:3-6 (WEB):

(3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;​

(4) who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth.​

(5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,​

(6) who gave himself as a ransom for all; the testimony in its own times;​

1 Timothy 4:10 (WEB):

(10) For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we have set our trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.​

1 John 2:2 (WEB):

(2) And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.​

John 3:16-17 (WEB):

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.​

(17) For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.​

 

[Wrangler]

Now honestly, did the writer write here that Christ tasted death for all mankind without exception here ? Nope he did not. In the original man isnt in the verse:

Generally, for all mankind, yes.

Without exception, no.

IMO, there is no need to parse ‘mankind’ with ‘many! given the context of other verses that @keithr nicely compiled for us.

Other verses to consider (from WEB):

John 1:29
(29) The next day, he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

In my experience, many struggle to properly discern God’s word. We’ve been indoctrinated to abhor general truths. Our legalistic culture rushes to offer exceptions, qualifications and conditions that are not necessary most of the time. Example: Men are bigger than women.

OTOH, Jesus gift of grace is available to all. OTOH, this does not mean the exact same thing as “everyone will be saved no matter what, even to those who do not accept the free gift.”

 

[Wrangler]

@keithr


Correct bcause He didnt taste death for everyone, just the Justified !

This is sad doctrine. If others were justified independent of Christ’s sacrifice, there was no need for the son of God to be sacrificed.

 

[brightfame52]

@keithr

There are many verses of Scripture that suggest otherwise, e.g. :

No sir, they all apply to all whom He tasted death for, so that would be all the Justified. The all in Rom 5:18 are said to have been Justified to life. So you know thats limited to the Justified, duh

 

[amigo de christo]

@keithr



No sir, they all apply to all whom He tasted death for, so that would be all the Justified. The all in Rom 5:18 are said to have been Justified to life. So you know thats limited to the Justified, duh

Both you and that man ,hear a simple truth .
Lets say both of you had done a wrong .
And both of you went to court .
THE JUDGE before you says YE ARE GUILTY .
Please ponder this my friend . You are found guilty .
THEN that there judge says to you , before i pass sentence
WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW how you can be pardoned .
WOULD NOT EVERY ONE want to know HOW and what could pardon them from the very sentence
they earned for their crime .
ALL HAVE EARNED DEATH
ALL have earned the lake of fire
I SUGGEST WE PREACH TO ALL the way to be PARDONED from their just sentence .
IN OTHER WORDS , TIME TO PREACH AGAIN the dire dire dire dire dire dire dire dire dire dire dire
and DIRE NEED TO BELEIVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST .
CAUSE i KNOW HE saves . I KNOW HE ALSO SAID HE who believes not WILL BE DAMNED .
DONT HOLLER AT THAT JUDGE , OH JUDGE THERE IS NO NEED FOR ME TO HEAR the way to be pardoned .
RATHER LISTEN . and preach THE MESSAGE ON HOW TO BE DELEIVERED , HOW TO BE PARDONED
QUITE SIMPLE if ya ask me . YOU SEE I KNOW WHO saves
AND I KNOW THE ONE WHO SAVES said YE MUST BELIEVE IN ME TO BE SAVED . WOW AINTTHAT REAL SIMPLE .

 

[brightfame52]

This is sad doctrine. If others were justified independent of Christ’s sacrifice, there was no need for the son of God to be sacrificed.

I dont understand you perspective here, could you clarify please ?

 

[brightfame52]

Both you and that man ,hear a simple truth .
Lets say both of you had done a wrong .
And both of you went to court .
THE JUDGE before you says YE ARE GUILTY .
Please ponder this my friend . You are found guilty .
THEN that there judge says to you , before i pass sentence
WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW how you can be pardoned .
WOULD NOT EVERY ONE want to know HOW and what could pardon them from the very sentence
they earned for their crime .
ALL HAVE EARNED DEATH
ALL have earned the lake of fire
I SUGGEST WE PREACH TO ALL the way to be PARDONED from their just sentence .
IN OTHER WORDS , TIME TO PREACH AGAIN the dire dire dire dire dire dire dire dire dire dire dire
and DIRE NEED TO BELEIVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST .
CAUSE i KNOW HE saves . I KNOW HE ALSO SAID HE who believes not WILL BE DAMNED .
DONT HOLLER AT THAT JUDGE , OH JUDGE THERE IS NO NEED FOR ME TO HEAR the way to be pardoned .
RATHER LISTEN . and preach THE MESSAGE ON HOW TO BE DELEIVERED , HOW TO BE PARDONED
QUITE SIMPLE if ya ask me . YOU SEE I KNOW WHO saves
AND I KNOW THE ONE WHO SAVES said YE MUST BELIEVE IN ME TO BE SAVED . WOW AINTTHAT REAL SIMPLE .

Doesn't make a lick of sense

 

[Wrangler]

I dont understand you perspective here, could you clarify please ?

It has to do with understanding logic.

This is sad doctrine. If others were justified independent of Christ’s sacrifice, there was no need for the son of God to be sacrificed.

Consider two options, where one is true and the other is false.

Correct bcause He didnt taste death for everyone, just the Justified !

Ha. Jesus died for the justified.
H0. Jesus did NOT die for the justified. (Jesus died to save all who believe in him, even though they are not justified.)

If people were justified, independent of Jesus death, then what purpose did his death serve?

The logical implication from your alternate hypothesis is that Jesus' death served no purpose because these people were justifed by their own power, independent of Jesus.

From this, I conclude your alternate hypothesis is false and accept the null hypothesis.

 

[Wrangler]

Doesn't make a lick of sense

The more of his posts you read, you'll realize they are all basically like that. LOL

 

[amigo de christo]

Doesn't make a lick of sense

i expect it dont .
But man its simple .
HEY brightfame if you stood before a judge and that judge was about to pass sentence of judgment against you
BUT then said HEY would you like to hear how you can be forigven , pardoned and not have to serve your setence
I BET EVEN YOU WOULD SAY HECK YEAH JUDGE , I WILL TAKE THAT DEAL .
YET YOU ALL REJECT THE MERCY OF GOD and rather preach a bull dung lie
that tries to find a way around HAVING TO BELIEVE IN JESUS to be saved .
OH i know YOU GONNA TELL ME YOU BELIEVE
but when it comes to other religons , You all sure seem to try and give to a pass to them .
INTERFIATH IS OF ANTI CHRIST
and the second worst thing one can say is OH its okay if one believes not JESUS IS THE CHRIST .
WANNA KNOW WHAT THE ABSOLUTE NUMBER ONE WORST THING TO DO IS
. GOOD
i will tell you what it is .
TIS CLIAMING YOU BLEIEVE and yet trying to make excuse for those who dont believe .
IN OTHER WORDS people LIKE OPRHA WHIMPHREY and most all false brethren
who say WE BELIEVE but it aint necessary for you to bleieve . the aboslute worst damnation awaits those .

 

[Marvelloustime]

i expect it dont .
But man its simple .
HEY brightfame if you stood before a judge and that judge was about to pass sentence of judgment against you
BUT then said HEY would you like to hear how you can be forigven , pardoned and not have to serve your setence
I BET EVEN YOU WOULD SAY HECK YEAH JUDGE , I WILL TAKE THAT DEAL .
YET YOU ALL REJECT THE MERCY OF GOD and rather preach a bull dung lie
that tries to find a way around HAVING TO BELIEVE IN JESUS to be saved .
OH i know YOU GONNA TELL ME YOU BELIEVE
but when it comes to other religons , You all sure seem to try and give to a pass to them .
INTERFIATH IS OF ANTI CHRIST
and the second worst thing one can say is OH its okay if one believes not JESUS IS THE CHRIST .
WANNA KNOW WHAT THE ABSOLUTE NUMBER ONE WORST THING TO DO IS
. GOOD
i will tell you what it is .
TIS CLIAMING YOU BLEIEVE and yet trying to make excuse for those who dont believe .
IN OTHER WORDS people LIKE OPRHA WHIMPHREY and most all false brethren
who say WE BELIEVE but it aint necessary for you to bleieve . the aboslute worst damnation awaits those .

@amigo de christo

 

[brightfame52]

It has to do with understanding logic.


Consider two options, where one is true and the other is false.


Ha. Jesus died for the justified.
H0. Jesus did NOT die for the justified. (Jesus died to save all who believe in him, even though they are not justified.)

If people were justified, independent of Jesus death, then what purpose did his death serve?

The logical implication from your alternate hypothesis is that Jesus' death served no purpose because these people were justifed by their own power, independent of Jesus.

From this, I conclude your alternate hypothesis is false and accept the null hypothesis.

You sound utterly confused to me.

 

[brightfame52]

i expect it dont .
But man its simple .
HEY brightfame if you stood before a judge and that judge was about to pass sentence of judgment against you
BUT then said HEY would you like to hear how you can be forigven , pardoned and not have to serve your setence
I BET EVEN YOU WOULD SAY HECK YEAH JUDGE , I WILL TAKE THAT DEAL .
YET YOU ALL REJECT THE MERCY OF GOD and rather preach a bull dung lie
that tries to find a way around HAVING TO BELIEVE IN JESUS to be saved .
OH i know YOU GONNA TELL ME YOU BELIEVE
but when it comes to other religons , You all sure seem to try and give to a pass to them .
INTERFIATH IS OF ANTI CHRIST
and the second worst thing one can say is OH its okay if one believes not JESUS IS THE CHRIST .
WANNA KNOW WHAT THE ABSOLUTE NUMBER ONE WORST THING TO DO IS
. GOOD
i will tell you what it is .
TIS CLIAMING YOU BLEIEVE and yet trying to make excuse for those who dont believe .
IN OTHER WORDS people LIKE OPRHA WHIMPHREY and most all false brethren
who say WE BELIEVE but it aint necessary for you to bleieve . the aboslute worst damnation awaits those .

Utterly confusing