Submission Of The Wife: How Serious A Matter Is It?

[Pearl]

(except perhaps professional football).

Have you seen the England women's ream in action in the European cup matches? One of their players has scored more goals (10) in international competition than the nearest male counterpart (9).

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Let me guess, in addition to females being pastors, you also think its ok for gay people to be elders/pastors??

 

[Pearl]

Let me guess, in addition to females being pastors, you also think its ok for gay people to be elders/pastors??

That would be a big NO!

 

[Enoch111]

How serious an issue is it with God if a Christian wife doesn't submit to her husband? Does it bring judgment?

Since this is a command of both God and Christ, there would be serious consequences for disobedience. The Word of God is quite explicit (1 Peter 3:1-6):
1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

We can all be QUILTY of saying as Satan did " I will not serve". Acts 6:1-3 addresses this issue when they were arguing over serving at tables, as did Jesus Luke 10:40,.

Any choice in life we make whether in a life just dedicated to God's works, serving in our community or being bonded in our family must be with the thought, " whatever I can do to serve others, showing God goodness,let me be willing"

 

[Pearl]

Since this is a command of both God and Christ, there would be serious consequences for disobedience. The Word of God is quite explicit (1 Peter 31-6):
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

I think men interpret submission in different ways.
Some are very legalistic and controlling whilst others are kind and loving. Which way do you think makes for the happier marriage.

 

[Enoch111]

I think men interpret submission in different ways. Some are very legalistic and controlling whilst others are kind and loving. Which way do you think makes for the happier marriage.

God does not encourage tyranny in husbands. Quite the opposite. See the next verse: Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

Husbands are commanded to give honour to their wives (above), and also commanded to love their wives as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself for it.

 

[Windmill Charge]

thin
k both roles are of equal importance myself, because both husbands and wives are called to be reflections of God. In a deeper sense, the wife as a reflection of the Son's obedience to the Father, and the husband is to be a reflection of the Father's loving kindness to the Son, and honoring and raising Him up to great honor after His time of trial is over, being the Subordinate in the relationship.

I see where you are coming from, but this is not a picture of the trinity but an example of love.
We husbands are to love as sacrifically as Jesus loves his church.
Wife's are to obey/submit to their loving husband.

The bias towards wife's obeying totally ignores the depth of the husbands sacrifice and obscures the fact that husband and wife's are equal.

Basically if the husbands responsibility is not being discuss, then the wife's responsibility should not be either.

 

[quietthinker]

But I'll work on taking it more as a "Devil's advocate" thing next time. By the way, why are you always taking his side? Lol.

Gotta keep folk sharp.....slumber makes boring company.

 

[Windmill Charge]

But a failure on the part of one, does not free the other from their obligations and duties

Far to often a husbands responsibilities have not been stressed, it has always been ' wife's obey your Lord and master".

Just as marital unfaithfulness will end a marr, so an unloving, uncaring, selfish husband does not have an obedient slave.

Look at how deep the husbands love has to be?

When have you loved your wife like that.

 

[Philip James]

Look at how deep the husbands love has to be?

Indeed!

When have you loved your wife like that.

Certainly not as often as I should (always) and never perfectly and sometimes shamefully not at all..

But by God's Grace, more and more each day.



Thank you Father,
For the gift of my wife.

All praise and glory are Yours, through Your Son, our Lord, Jesus Christ

Who lives and reigns with You and the Holy Spirit

God! Forever and ever

 

[Mink57]

Ok, sorry about the wait. Had a birthday yesterday, and it was a big "to do" this time.

No prob! :) Sounds like a fun day.

My response here is that this is an excellent point, and in reality they actually did apply the second greatest commandment in developing early church doctrine to questions like relationships, including the marriage relationship.

First let me show you on how they taught masters and slaves to conduct themselves towards one another. The following is from later in the same passage in Ephesians:

5 Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ; 6 not with eye-service, as men-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, 7 with goodwill doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men, 8 knowing that whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free. 9 And you, masters, do the same things to them, giving up threatening, knowing that your own Master also is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him. (Ephesians 6:5-9)

Now if you'll notice, what he was doing here was applying the golden rule specifically to the slave/master relationship, where it was understood going in that one was subordinate to the other. To the slave, doing unto others as one would have them do unto you meant being the best servant to them that they could, even serving unto them as if they were serving unto the Lord Himself. To the master, it involved not "lording it over them" so to speak but treating them with kindness and respect, because they too had a Master over them to whom they would be without excuse if they treated others as inferiors in this life.

Now to what he said about Husbands and wives. First the wives:

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

O.k., I have to stop you right here. The passage does NOT begin at Eph. 5:22. It begins at 5:21...which states, "Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ." Other bible versions will say to "submit" to one another or be "subject" to one another. Doesn't matter. The gist is the same. The point is, that the passage begins at 5:21; not 5:22. If we ignore 5:21, then EVERYTHING between 5:22 and 6:9 is lost in translation.

Eph. 5:21 is the leading point, whereas, from 5:22 to 6:9 is HOW we are to submit, even if the word "submit" wasn't used. In almost every kind of relationship, there is a kind of submission going on. Between teacher/student, merchant/consumer, Captain/Private, Policeman/general public, etc. While the submission isn't exactly the same ALL the time, there's submission between both parties, nonetheless.

Same principle here. This was written from the perspective that the wife was subordinate to her husband in the marriage relationship, so he again applied the principle that fulfillment of the second greatest commandment for her was to submit to him even as unto the Lord, meaning to the very best of her ability. Then he applied the same principle to the husbands:

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, [h]of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Again, you gotta begin the passage with 5:21; not 5:22.

Much could be said here because I don't think most husbands focus on teaching their wives, which takes up the dominant portion of his teaching here.

LOL! Believe me, when my late husband was alive, what he *taught* me was that he was selfish, self-absorbed, un-Christian, controlling, arrogant, and absolutely HATED it when I was able to*prove* that he was wrong. If any man believes that his wife should ONLY learn from him shows a kind of arrogance that I don't subscribe to.

But the summation of his teaching to husbands was again, "let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself." This was simply a shortened version of the golden rule again. As the one in charge of the relationship, he needed to make sure he didn't take advantage of her, but love her as he would himself. But for the wife, there was again a reminder to reverence her husband for he was charged with leading the marriage. So Yes. What you were saying is true. Do unto others is in one sense "all one needs to know," but that is provided that you understand the dynamics of the relationship being describing. Otherwise responses could be inappropriate to the particular relationship being addressed.

It really depends on what being "in charge" means. For some, it means that the husband gets to make ALL the decisions, big or small, REGARDLESS of what his wife wants. That kind of being "in charge", I, and I'm certain MOST women, would want no part of.

On the other hand, if the husband discusses things with his wife...sees his wife as equal partner, whose opinions are just as important as his own, and sees himself as more or less a 'figure-head' of the relationship, and who's first obedience is to God, then yes. I can get on board with that kind of arrangement.

We cannot look at 5:22 as some 'get-out-of-jail-free' card that means a husband can lord himself over his spouse. When we read the bible, we have to apply ALL of it to various situations. I asked you before, "what about the Golden Rule?' Well, I also propose to you, what about the passage that says that we are supposed to put others interests ahead of our own (Phil. 2:3-4)? Do we think that the "others" means others except our spouses? As Paul would say, "Of course not!"

You probably don't know me that well, but I'm Catholic...which means, that I have a Catholic Bible that's chock-full of footnotes, cross-references and commentaries. In the commentary regarding Eph. 5:22, it says that "this passage is the most misunderstood passages that Paul wrote."...and goes on to say how people (yes, women, too) have abused this passage for their own selfish benefit...often using it to beat a woman down into doing whatever her husband may selfishly want.

Anywho...'nuf sed...fer now..;)

 

[Hidden In Him]

The bias towards wife's obeying totally ignores the depth of the husbands sacrifice

I'm not sure why there seems to be a bias towards the former. Maybe it's because more men are preachers and teachers; maybe it's because it provides a ready excuse for some Christian men to blame their wives for their marital problems...

I think if the subject were taught in a different manner, after a spiritual rather than carnal manner, some might see how the husband's responsibility is actually greater, much like how James said teachers will receive the greater condemnation if they lead improperly. One has to get their fleshly and self-serving desires out of the way or it corrupts the decision-making.

It's why I let my wife do whatever she wishes, quite honestly. She wants to cook, she cooks. She wants to clean, she cleans. If she wants to do neither, I regard her as the ruler over her own mind, and there is likely a reason. Maybe she's tired; maybe she's got things on her mind. But whatever it is, I trust her that she knows her situation better than me, and will make the smarter choice on what she needs to do and when she needs to do it. But she's not self-serving, and has proven that throughout the marriage. I've proven the same to her. I'm not a perfect man, but I have been 100% up front honest with her since day 1, through the good and through the bad, and she knows I'm never trying to subjugate her, or take advantage of her, or do anything behind her back because I see her as somehow inferior and don't need to know. So I think seeing each other as equals is very important, even though I bear the responsibility of leading. I think it's because I see her as a compete equal that I regard the things she does (cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc) as acts of love. Who wants to do anything when they feel they have to, as a non-equal? That's kinda disgusting frankly. But if they are not required to do so unless and when they want to, then they do it out the goodness of their heart and with joy.

I feel sorry for women trapped in abusive marriages. Like I said, married to the wrong man, it makes the Biblical teaching on submission a nightmare instead of a blessing. The one thing I will say, however, is this: There is one thing Christian women need to guard against, and that is questioning the authority of a strong Christian husband in the home, or in public. A good man wants her to be happy, and will make life as easy as he can for her, and will think over decisions that concern her very carefully. But after doing all that, if she still throws things in his face and insists on having things her way, that's a problem. Mild objections, yes. But getting obstinate? No. I have great respect for my wife. She's smart, she's funny, she's constantly being a blessing, and she is no toy. But likewise neither am I. I think if there is genuine respect on both sides, both sides will be very guarded and careful with their words and actions with each other, especially when there is a divisive issue at hand, and it's never just "my way or the highway." They have to have respect for one another, while nevertheless accepting the fact that the husband is running the ship. If it sinks, the responsibility was his.

 

[Mink57]

Let me guess, in addition to females being pastors, you also think its ok for gay people to be elders/pastors??

I wouldn't dismiss a gay elder's words because they're 'gay', ANYMORE than I would dismiss Anne Frank's words, just because she was a child when she wrote her diary...

 

[Mink57]

I think men interpret submission in different ways.
Some are very legalistic and controlling whilst others are kind and loving. Which way do you think makes for the happier marriage.

And really, that's it, in a nutshell. Too many men let that 'power' of believing that a woman had to do anything and everything the husband wanted...which was TOO often rooted in their own selfish motivations.

And those men wonder WHY Feminism took root...

 

[Hidden In Him]

O.k., I have to stop you right here. The passage does NOT begin at Eph. 5:22. It begins at 5:21...which states, "Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ." Other bible versions will say to "submit" to one another or be "subject" to one another. Doesn't matter. The gist is the same. The point is, that the passage begins at 5:21; not 5:22. If we ignore 5:21, then EVERYTHING between 5:22 and 6:9 is lost in translation.

You keep setting aside my response in Post #8. :)

LOL! Believe me, when my late husband was alive, what he *taught* me was that he was selfish, self-absorbed, un-Christian, controlling, arrogant, and absolutely HATED it when I was able to*prove* that he was wrong. If any man believes that his wife should ONLY learn from him shows a kind of arrogance that I don't subscribe to.

Bahahaha! Well at least you learned, Lol.

No, the Biblical teaching was not that he should be the only one teaching his wife, just that he should be the one teaching her in the home, and that that is where she should hope to learn as much as she could rather than waiting for a service and asking everyone else. As a representative of Christ Jesus, the husband was supposed to be able to teach her, just as He Himself was Teacher to the church.

It really depends on what being "in charge" means. For some, it means that the husband gets to make ALL the decisions, big or small, REGARDLESS of what his wife wants. That kind of being "in charge", I, and I'm certain MOST women, would want no part of.

I wouldn't either. There are so many things my wife and I would just laugh at the notion of. We'd find it funny, LoL. Our communication is off the charts - we even fuss and fight to settle minor grievances continually, but in a playful and humorous way, which is incredibly funny in and of itself most of the time - but we respect one another's minds. I ask her opinion on things with a certain amount of regularity - not because she will make the final decision but because I want her take on things before I do. To be married to some bonehead who thinks he's the only one with a brain in the relationship would just be intolerable to me, and Christian or no, with my temper he would have found out even before we were married that he can stuff it if he thinks that's the way it's ever gonna work. I'd whittle him down to a toothpick mentally and emotionally and then see if he still wants to play, Lol. In other words, there HAS to be respect. If there isn't, stronger personalities will make sure there is, whether you are ready for it or not.

You probably don't know me that well, but I'm Catholic...which means, that I have a Catholic Bible that's chock-full of footnotes, cross-references and commentaries. In the commentary regarding Eph. 5:22, it says that "this passage is the most misunderstood passages that Paul wrote."...and goes on to say how people (yes, women, too) have abused this passage for their own selfish benefit...often using it to beat a woman down into doing whatever her husband may selfishly want.

Thanks for sharing. That sounds like a decent commentary.

Anywho...'nuf sed...fer now..;)

I hear ya. I told myself I'm supposed to be doing work outside instead of clicking away at a keyboard... yet again, Lol.

God bless,
- H

 

[Mink57]

Indeed!



Certainly not as often as I should (always) and never perfectly and sometimes shamefully not at all..

But by God's Grace, more and more each day.



Thank you Father,
For the gift of my wife.

All praise and glory are Yours, through Your Son, our Lord, Jesus Christ

Who lives and reigns with You and the Holy Spirit

God! Forever and ever

Beautiful sentiment!

 

[Mink57]

You keep setting aside my response in Post #8. :)

Hmm...didn't think I was doing that...

Bahahaha! Well at least you learned, Lol.

No, the Biblical teaching was not that he should be the only one teaching his wife, just that he should be the one teaching her in the home, and that that is where she should hope to learn as much as she could rather than waiting for a service and asking everyone else. As a representative of Christ Jesus, the husband was supposed to be able to teach her, just as He Himself was Teacher to the church.

Nope, nope...nope. My late husband and I were "unequally yoked" in Christian matters. When we got together, he was agnostic...or, so he claimed. His "teachings" in the home weren't "teachings" at all. I'm sorry Hidden, but if my intellect in some areas--including religious matters-- is superior to my husband's, I'm not about to "put it under a bushel" simply because of my marital status and/or gender.

I can learn from anyone. The male clerk at the 7-11...my own adult daughters...even someone like Putin can 'teach' me, what NOT to do, and how NOT to think.

But if my late husband tried to "teach" me that I should hate ALL Iranians...am I supposed to "learn" from him?

I wouldn't either. There are so many things my wife and I would just laugh at the notion of. We'd find it funny, LoL. Our communication is off the charts - we even fuss and fight to settle minor grievances continually, but in a playful and humorous way, which is incredibly funny in and of itself most of the time - but we respect one another's minds. I ask her opinion on things with a certain amount of regularity - not because she will make the final decision but because I want her take on things before I do. To be married to some bonehead who thinks he's the only one with a brain in the relationship would just be intolerable to me, and Christian or no, with my temper he would have found out even before we were married that he can stuff it if he thinks that's the way it's ever gonna work. I'd whittle him down to a toothpick mentally and emotionally and then see if he still wants to play, Lol. In other words, there HAS to be respect. If there isn't, stronger personalities will make sure there is, whether you are ready for it or not.

Unfortunately, too many men believe that, though. And yes, even some CHRISTIAN men believe this.

Thanks for sharing. That sounds like a decent commentary.


I hear ya. I told myself I'm supposed to be doing work outside instead of clicking away at a keyboard... yet again, Lol.

God bless,
- H

I hear ya...I'm guilty of the same behavior...Your Honor... So, I throw myself on the mercy of the court...

Till next time,
Mink

 

[Dropship]

..The Proverb clearly doesn't say that a "woman's place is in the home" or that she "should wait until her kids are grown" before going to work..

Some of the most unruly and disturbed kids at junior school were the ones whose parents both worked, and the poor kids hated going home to a cold empty house..

 

[Hidden In Him]

Hmm...didn't think I was doing that...

See, then how it works is you present a counter-exegesis to mine showing why it was wrong. You're just rolling passed it like it wasn't there. :)

Nope, nope...nope. My late husband and I were "unequally yoked" in Christian matters. When we got together, he was agnostic...or, so he claimed. His "teachings" in the home weren't "teachings" at all. I'm sorry Hidden, but if my intellect in some areas--including religious matters-- is superior to my husband's, I'm not about to "put it under a bushel" simply because of my marital status and/or gender.

I kinda hate to state the obvious here, and I'm assuming you likely don't need any reminders at this point, but if the above is true then don't you think you made a colossal mistake from the outset; one in direct conflict with Paul's teaching? How can one marry an unbeliever and not expect it to undermine the entire teaching? You can't marry an agnostic and expect him to manifest the Spirit of God to you, or reflect Lord Jesus Christ to you in marriage, can you? :

Unfortunately, too many men believe that, though. And yes, even some CHRISTIAN men believe this.

Maybe so, but now you can't go letting the sinners become the representatives of what Christianity is. You have to focus on the saints or your whole perception and presentation of the faith and its doctrines become kinda skewed.

I hear ya...I'm guilty of the same behavior...Your Honor... So, I throw myself on the mercy of the court...

No mercy! I sentence you to give me responses in perpetuity, so help me God.