Stand-in Sacrifices

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Webers_Home

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God is not in the habit of sweeping sins under the rug.

Ex 34:6-7 . . Yhvh, Yhvh God: compassionate and gracious, slow to anger,
and abounding in loving kindness and truth; who keeps loving kindness for
thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no
means leave the guilty unpunished

Nahum 1:3 . . Yhvh is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all
acquit the wicked

Looking at those two scriptures one cannot help but scratch their head and
wonder how it's possible that God forgives the guilty, and yet at the same
time does not acquit the guilty. Well; the answer to that is quite simple:
forgiveness and acquittal are two very different things in the Old Testament.

In other words; though God forgives the guilty, He never clears the guilty;
viz: forgiveness in the Old Testament is merely a reprieve; which Webster's
defines as: to delay the punishment of someone; such as a prisoner who is
sentenced to death. In point of fact, Yom Kippur, though a day of cleansing,
is also a day for the Jews to remember that their sins are still on the books,
hanging over their heads like a sword of Damocles.

But God has devised a procedure for rescuing the Jews from their rather
precarious position.

Isa 53:5-6 . . He was pierced through for our transgressions, he was
crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon him,
and by his scourging we are healed. All of us like sheep have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way; but the Yhvh has caused the iniquity
of us all to fall on him.

Christ's crucifixion is commonly referred to as a vicarious substitutionary
sacrifice. But that's a misnomer because the Bible does not allow for
substitutions. The soul that sins; it shall die in its own place rather than
another soul in its place because that would not be justice; in point of fact,
that would be a miscarriage of justice. No; people themselves have to die for
their sins in order to satisfy the law of sin and death which reads like this:

Ezek 18:20 . .The one who sins shall die.

Rom 6:23 . . For the wages of sin is death

So; in order for Christ's crucifixion to protect people from a second physical
death in the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:10-15, it has to be, in
some way, accounted as their own crucifixion as well as his; and God has
invented an ingenious way for them to do that very thing by means of a
baptism that involves neither clergy nor H2O.

1Cor 12:12-13 . . For even as the body is one and yet has many members,
and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so
also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether
Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of
one Spirit.

Seeing as how this particular baptism is supernatural rather than physical,
then of course it's to be expected to make no sense whatsoever. However, in
a nutshell; what this particular baptism does is make people participants in
Christ's crucifixion instead of merely observers.

Rom 6:3 . . Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into
Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Rom 6:6 . . Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him

Gal 2:20 . . I am crucified with Christ

Col 3:3 . . For you died when Christ died

The Watchtower Society agrees that Holy Spirit baptism did occur back in
the day, but that it was only temporary. The Society insists that it ceased
early-on so that now the one baptism spoken of in Eph 4:5 is the ritual of
water baptism. Well; that is very tragic to say the least because it means
that every one of the Jehovah's Witnesses alive today is on a road to
termination in the lake of brimstone because they are merely observers of
Christ's crucifixion instead of participants.

/
 

justaname

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There are others that also believe there must be a water baptism for salvation confusing the work of the Spirt with the hands of men.

Good observation concerning:

For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body-Jews or Greeks, slaves or free-and all were made to drink of one Spirit. - 1 Corinthians 12:13

I have died and have been made alive in Christ!

4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved-
6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. - Ephesians 2:4-10
 

Mungo

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2012
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Webers_Home said:
-
God is not in the habit of sweeping sins under the rug.

Ex 34:6-7 . . Yhvh, Yhvh God: compassionate and gracious, slow to anger,
and abounding in loving kindness and truth; who keeps loving kindness for
thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no
means leave the guilty unpunished

Nahum 1:3 . . Yhvh is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all
acquit the wicked

Looking at those two scriptures one cannot help but scratch their head and
wonder how it's possible that God forgives the guilty, and yet at the same
time does not acquit the guilty. Well; the answer to that is quite simple:
forgiveness and acquittal are two very different things in the Old Testament.

In other words; though God forgives the guilty, He never clears the guilty;
viz: forgiveness in the Old Testament is merely a reprieve; which Webster's
defines as: to delay the punishment of someone; such as a prisoner who is
sentenced to death. In point of fact, Yom Kippur, though a day of cleansing,
is also a day for the Jews to remember that their sins are still on the books,
hanging over their heads like a sword of Damocles.

But God has devised a procedure for rescuing the Jews from their rather
precarious position.

Isa 53:5-6 . . He was pierced through for our transgressions, he was
crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon him,
and by his scourging we are healed. All of us like sheep have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way; but the Yhvh has caused the iniquity
of us all to fall on him.

Christ's crucifixion is commonly referred to as a vicarious substitutionary
sacrifice. But that's a misnomer because the Bible does not allow for
substitutions. The soul that sins; it shall die in its own place rather than
another soul in its place because that would not be justice; in point of fact,
that would be a miscarriage of justice. No; people themselves have to die for
their sins in order to satisfy the law of sin and death which reads like this:

Ezek 18:20 . .The one who sins shall die.

Rom 6:23 . . For the wages of sin is death

So; in order for Christ's crucifixion to protect people from a second physical
death in the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:10-15, it has to be, in
some way, accounted as their own crucifixion as well as his; and God has
invented an ingenious way for them to do that very thing by means of a
baptism that involves neither clergy nor H2O.

1Cor 12:12-13 . . For even as the body is one and yet has many members,
and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so
also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether
Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of
one Spirit.

Seeing as how this particular baptism is supernatural rather than physical,
then of course it's to be expected to make no sense whatsoever. However, in
a nutshell; what this particular baptism does is make people participants in
Christ's crucifixion instead of merely observers.

Rom 6:3 . . Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into
Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Rom 6:6 . . Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him

Gal 2:20 . . I am crucified with Christ

Col 3:3 . . For you died when Christ died

The Watchtower Society agrees that Holy Spirit baptism did occur back in
the day, but that it was only temporary. The Society insists that it ceased
early-on so that now the one baptism spoken of in Eph 4:5 is the ritual of
water baptism. Well; that is very tragic to say the least because it means
that every one of the Jehovah's Witnesses alive today is on a road to
termination in the lake of brimstone because they are merely observers of
Christ's crucifixion instead of participants.

/
You made the same post in the thread The Cross And Moses' Bronze Serpent (post #22).

So here is my reply (post #23)

Your analysis has some merit in that it is correct to say that after forgiveness some punishment remains. However you fail to understand that there are two kinds of punishment.

The eternal punishment due for serious sin is spiritual death - everlasting separation from God in hell.
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Mt 10:28)

The punishment that Ex 34:7 is referring to is not that kind of punishment.

Ex 34:6-7: The LORD passed before him, and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, 7 keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation."

You see, you missed off the last part of Ex 34:7. It is a punishment in time; a punishment that can be expiated here in this life. It is what the Catholic Church calls temporal punishment. It's nature is more a matter of discipline and the consequences of sin in this life, not in the life to come. The children and children's children do not go to hell because of the father's sins.

God states that very clearly in Ez 18. You need to read the whole chapter, but verse 30 summarises it: "The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." In this God is not referring here to temporal punishment but to (everlasting) death as can be seen in the rest of chapter 18 concluding with verses 31-32
"Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed against me, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of any one, says the Lord GOD; so turn, and live."

You suggest that guilt cannot be forgiven. But that is not what Jeremiah says:
"I will cleanse them from all the guilt of their sin against me, and I will forgive all the guilt of their sin and rebellion against me." (Jer 33:8)

And the Psalmist says:
I acknowledged my sin to thee, and I did not hide my iniquity; I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD"; then thou didst forgive the guilt of my sin." (Psalm 32:5).

You say:
"The soul that sins; it shall die in its own place rather than another soul in its place because that would not be justice; in point of fact, that would be a miscarriage of justice. No; people themselves have to die for their sins."
Souls that sins do not have to die if God forgives their sins.

Christ teaches us this in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Lk 15:11-32) and the Debtor (Mt 18:23-35).
The debt can be forgiven.

By Christ's death we can be reconciled to God:
"He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, will he not also give us all things with him? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies; who is to condemn?" (Rom 8:32-34).

In view of this error the rest of your post is in error also.

Moreover our sins are forgiven in baptism (with water) and we have a clean conscience. That is why Peter says: Baptism, which corresponds to this [Noah & family saved by water], now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1Pet 3:21).
You see - no guilty conscience.

We are cleansed by the blood of Christ.
According to the law almost everything is purified by blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. (Heb 9:22)
The blood of his Son Jesus cleanses us from all sin (1Jn 1:7)
To him [Jesus] who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood (Rev 1:5)

To have our sins washed away we must come into contact with the blood of Christ that he shed on the cross. How do we do that?
Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? (Rom 6:3)
You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. And even when you were dead (in) transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he brought you to life along with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions; (Col 2:11-13)

When we are baptised into Jesus’ death we spiritually come into contact with his blood and we are cleansed from sin. When Ananias told Paul ‘Get up and have yourself baptised and your sins washed away, calling upon his name.’ (Acts 22;16), it was by Jesus’ blood that Paul’s sins were washed away - forgiven and he could have a clear conscience, no guilt remaining.