So pre mills actually think when they come down to this earth after a rapture, their stuff left behind will still be there?

[Spiritual Israelite]

And that’s why I don’t take you seriously. You are relying on complete speculation that Mary would somehow be devastated if she touched Jesus.

You aren't even understanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying she would be devastated if she touched Jesus as if touching Jesus would immediately result in her being devastated. Are you even reading what I'm saying? I'm saying that Jesus didn't want her to cling to Him and rely too much on His physical presence or else she would be devastated when He left the earth and ascended to heaven because of missing His physical presence so much. I think I'm being pretty clear in what I'm saying here, but you still don't get it. You can't conclude that you can't take me seriously when you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. That's ridiculous. Don't blame me for your poor reading comprehension skills.

 

[grafted branch]

You aren't even understanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying she would be devastated if she touched Jesus as if touching Jesus would immediately result in her being devastated. Are you even reading what I'm saying? I'm saying that Jesus didn't want her to cling to Him and rely too much on His physical presence or else she would be devastated when He left the earth and ascended to heaven because of missing His physical presence so much. I think I'm being pretty clear in what I'm saying here, but you still don't get it. You can't conclude that you can't take me seriously when you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. That's ridiculous. Don't blame me for your poor reading comprehension skills.

You are clearly speculating on Mary’s plight if she would’ve clung to Jesus.

 

[Scott Downey]

You are clearly speculating on Mary’s plight if she would’ve clung to Jesus.

Christ is going to the Father in Heaven, Christ has a job to take up, God is going to give Him all authority and power. This was after he was raised, but before the ascension in Acts 1. Right there, it is not Mary's time to go and be with Christ in heaven. When it is, Christ will come and get her.

John 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are clearly speculating on Mary’s plight if she would’ve clung to Jesus.

Are you not speculating about this as well? Of course you are. But, so what? The fact of the matter is that we are not specifically told why He told her not to cling to Him. So, we have no choice but to speculate. Do you have a better reason that she would be told not to cling to Him than what I have given? This idea you have that He had to ascend to heaven first and couldn't be touched until He got back is ridiculous. Why would He need to ascend to heaven first and come back before being touched? There would have been no reason for that. It makes far more sense that He was telling her not to rely too much on His physical presence because He was soon going to be leaving the earth and ascending to heaven and she could not go with Him there.

 

[grafted branch]

The fact of the matter is that we are not specifically told why He told her not to cling to Him. So, we have no choice but to speculate.

We are told the specific reason that He had not yet ascended to the Father. That was the reason Mary wasn’t allowed to touch Him.

After Jesus ascended to the father, which took place just after He arose, people were allowed to physically touch and to cling to Him.

Why would He need to ascend to heaven first and come back before being touched? There would have been no reason for that.

Because He had to be presented as a spotless Lamb.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We are told the specific reason that He had not yet ascended to the Father. That was the reason Mary wasn’t allowed to touch Him.

Where are we told that?

After Jesus ascended to the father, which took place just after He arose, people were allowed to physically touch and to cling to Him.


Because He had to be presented as a spotless Lamb.

Where is the scripture which teaches that at the point He told Mary not to touch Him He could not be touched anymore at that time and couldn't be touched again until He left and came back as a spotless Lamb? You say that I'm speculating, but that is exactly what you are doing as well.

 

[grafted branch]

Where are we told that?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

LOL! I was not asking where it says that He was not yet ascended to the Father. That is extremely obvious. Why would I ask about that? Come on.

No, I'm asking where we are told exactly why Jesus said what He did in that verse. Yes, He told her that she shouldn't touch Him because He hadn't yet ascended to the Father, but why did He say that? We're not specifically told the reason why He said that. So, we can only speculate on that. You say it's because He had to first ascend to the Father and come back as a spotless Lamb before anyone could touch Him. Show me where scripture says that.

 

[grafted branch]

LOL! I was not asking where it says that He was not yet ascended to the Father. That is extremely obvious. Why would I ask about that? Come on.

No, I'm asking where we are told exactly why Jesus said what He did in that verse. Yes, He told her that she shouldn't touch Him because He hadn't yet ascended to the Father, but why did He say that? We're not specifically told the reason why He said that. So, we can only speculate on that. You say it's because He had to first ascend to the Father and come back as a spotless Lamb before anyone could touch Him. Show me where scripture says that.

If you don’t want to accept the reason given in that verse then don’t. I’m not going to try to convince you of what is clearly stated in that verse.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you don’t want to accept the reason given in that verse then don’t. I’m not going to try to convince you of what is clearly stated in that verse.

LOL. You are hilarious. Where did I say that I don't accept the reason given in that verse? Nowhere! Hello? I accept the reason fully which is that she couldn't cling to Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father. But, what does that mean exactly? We're not told that specifically.

What I'm asking you is what was the reason that Him having to ascend to the Father made it so that He told Mary not to touch Him? He did not explain that specifically. I've shared my opinion of why that was the case. You shared yours, also, which is that you think He told her that because He had to be presented as a spotless Lamb. Where did He say that He had to go to heaven and come back as a spotless Lamb? Nowhere, right? So, why can't you acknowledge that you are speculating just as much as I am about that?

 

[Pierac]

Grow up. You added your own words to the holy scripture and I called you out on it. And instead of acknowledging it, you resort to childish insults.


Yes, He did and they will. Scripture teaches that this earth will be renewed when Jesus comes, resulting in the new earth (2 Peter 3:10-13), and we will then inherit the (renewed/new) earth.


No, I don't. Your personal insults only show your immaturity and how no one should take you seriously.


Says the person speaking like a child. Grow up, kid.


Pathetic. But, thanks for proving that no one can take you seriously so that we can know not to waste time reading your childish posts.

Again... I added nothing... I simply posted scripture and you went crazy on the other Paul whom wrote it....

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits at his (resurrection!), after that those who are Christ's at His coming, (When Christ returns) 24 then comes the end, (After the 1000 years on earth is complete) when He (Jesus) hands over the kingdom to the (His) God and Father, when He (Jesus) has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He (Jesus) must reign until He (Jesus) has put all His enemies under His (Jesus') feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For HE (Jesus) HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He (Jesus) says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He (GOD) is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him (Jesus). 28 When all things are subjected to Him (GOD), then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One (GOD) who subjected all things to Him (Jesus), so that God (the God of Jesus) may be all in all.

You know... The God whom gave Jesus his revelations.... Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which (His) God gave Him

Again.... how do you not know these things....

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Again... I added nothing... I simply posted scripture and you went crazy on the other Paul whom wrote it....

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits at his (resurrection!), after that those who are Christ's at His coming, (When Christ returns) 24 then comes the end, (After the 1000 years on earth is complete) when He (Jesus) hands over the kingdom to the (His) God and Father, when He (Jesus) has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He (Jesus) must reign until He (Jesus) has put all His enemies under His (Jesus') feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For HE (Jesus) HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He (Jesus) says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He (GOD) is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him (Jesus). 28 When all things are subjected to Him (GOD), then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One (GOD) who subjected all things to Him (Jesus), so that God (the God of Jesus) may be all in all.

You know... The God whom gave Jesus his revelations.... Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which (His) God gave Him

Again.... how do you not know these things....

Now, you did it again. You say you added nothing? What translation is this where verse 24 says "then comes the end, (After the 1000 years on earth is complete)..."?

 

[Davidpt]

Now, you did it again. You say you added nothing? What translation is this where verse 24 says "then comes the end, (After the 1000 years on earth is complete)..."?

As if nothing can ever be compressed in passages where the missing details have to be found elsewhere. It is not reasonable that the very same day Christ returns, 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled that same day. The way you try and get around all of this, once Christ returns everything that still needs to be fulfilled before 1 Corinthians 15:28 can be fulfilled, is being fulfilled outside of time rather than in the realm of measurable time. And in your mind that apparently explains everything.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As if nothing can ever be compressed in passages where the missing details have to be found elsewhere.

Do you always have to miss the point? He was quoting the scripture and adding his own words to it. That's the issue I have. He should quote the scripture and he can comment on it and say that there's more details not included if he wants. But, he should not add his own words to scripture when quoting scripture.

It is not reasonable that the very same day Christ returns, 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled that same day. The way you try and get around all of this, once Christ returns everything that still needs to be fulfilled before 1 Corinthians 15:28 can be fulfilled, is being fulfilled outside of time rather than in the realm of measurable time. And in your mind that apparently explains everything.

If you want to believe that Jesus is actually going to take the time to judge billions of people in the realm of time, then you go ahead and believe that nonsense. I can't stop you.

 

[Scott Downey]

The judgment of condemnation has already been decided for all people, just as Jesus taught. And all the books of their works, what was recorded in the books, God already knows all of that, even before they did what they did, He knows all things, and Christ knows all men.

The Day of Judgment is just an official pronouncement verdict.

All the evidence has been piling into the account of your life in the body in heaven's books for millennia of time.

John 3
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Isaiah 46, God absolutely has decided already what He will do.

8 “Remember this, and [b]show yourselves men;
Recall to mind, O you transgressors.

9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’

11 Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it;
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it;
I will also do it.

12 “Listen to Me, you stubborn-hearted,
Who are far from righteousness:

13 I bring My righteousness near, it shall not be far off;
My salvation shall not [c]linger.
And I will place salvation in Zion,
For Israel My glory.

 

[Scott Downey]

Further proof of this is the judgment of hell, as in when someone dies, where do they go? According to scripture they either go to be with Christ, or they find themselves in hell when they die.

The doom of the ungodly is a sure and certain word from the Lord.

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [b]hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)—

9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of [c]dignitaries, 11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.