So pre mills actually think when they come down to this earth after a rapture, their stuff left behind will still be there?

[Scott Downey]

God’s Righteousness Through Faith​

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all [f]and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified [g]freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a [h]propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

So after you believe all your sins are wiped out by the cross of Christ, that is the ones you previously committed.
However if you sin willfully there is no longer a sacrifice for sin, but a fearful expectation of judgment coming your way.

Hebrews 10

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

I am not talking about people losing their salvation, this is about losing their rewards from God. The fire of God will test everyone's work.

1 Cor 3
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

 

[grafted branch]

The sin offering for sins had to do with DEATH.

Ezekiel 18:4
“Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.

Christ became sin for us and died the death we should have died because we sinned, so that we would become righteous, but that does not mean the sins you do after being saved have no effect at all in your relationship with God. That is really stupid.

I didn’t say sins don’t currently affect us or our relationship with God. If I rob a bank I’m forgiven because I’m a Christian but I’m going to have to be put in prison for that crime and that crime will have an effect on my testimony for Jesus. That crime could cost me some of my reward because that crime was not a righteous effort and I might have been given more opportunity to put forth greater righteous effort if I had not committed that crime, but that all takes place here and now.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In John 20:17 Jesus tells Mary not to touch Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father.

In John 20:27 Jesus tells Thomas to thrust his hand into His side.

Jesus had to have ascended to the Father and came back else Thomas wouldn’t have been allowed to touch Him.

You are apparently saying you think Jesus bodily ascended to heaven and then came back and later bodily ascended to heaven again. I completely disagree with that. What would be the point of that?

What John 20:17 means is not that Mary literally couldn't touch Him. No, the reason He said that is that He didn't want her to cling to Him because He was not going to be staying around much longer. She had to start accepting that He was going to be leaving her soon, so she should not cling to Him too much or she would not be able to handle Him leaving.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Children... Calm down....

Let him who has ears to hear, and eyes to see....

"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1Co_15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1Co_15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20-22:

In Revelation 20-22, we have:

Still rule (Rev_20:6; Rev_22:5)
Son still reigns (Rev_22:1-5; Rev_21:5)
Authority (Rev_21:24-25)
Power (Rev_21:24-25; Rev_22:2)
Kings (Rev_21:24-26)
Saints reign (Rev_22:5)
Second death still exists (Rev_21:8)
The nations still mortal (Rev_22:2)"

In 1Co_15:22-28, we have:

No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed
All made alive, immortal

Time to to have your eyes opened... to see...

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits at his (resurrection!), after that those who are Christ's at His coming, (When Christ returns) 24 then comes the end, (After the 1000 years on earth is complete) when He (Jesus) hands over the kingdom to the (His) God and Father, when He (Jesus) has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He (Jesus) must reign until He (Jesus) has put all His enemies under His (Jesus') feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For HE (Jesus) HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He (Jesus) says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He (GOD) is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him (Jesus). 28 When all things are subjected to Him (GOD), then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One (GOD) who subjected all things to Him (Jesus), so that God (the God of Jesus) may be all in all.

You know... The God whom gave Jesus his revelations.... Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which (His) God gave Him

How do you not know these things?

Okay, Dad. Why should we listen to you when you blatantly twist scripture by inserting your own words into scripture where they don't belong such as when you added 1000 years between Christ's return and the end when He hands over the kingdom to the Father?

 

[grafted branch]

What John 20:17 means is not that Mary literally couldn't touch Him. No, the reason He said that is that He didn't want her to cling to Him because He was not going to be staying around much longer. She had to start accepting that He was going to be leaving her soon, so she should not cling to Him too much or she would not be able to handle Him leaving.

Can’t be, in Luke 24:29 they constrained Him, which is a much stronger effort than “touch”.

Luke 24:28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further. 29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Well the problem with this world is Sin !
Now one needs our Lord's Salvation to make a Kindom of God's People !
So when you hace a Child your main hope for them is to pick up on Christ Jesus in their lives in fact ! or they are just a Bastard in fact ! just a poor stupid Carnal dupe who is totaly lost and a Slave to this world, that is full of deceptions and delusions, That's who they are in fact !

So what does Jesus want of us ? to become and over come this world that is full of deceptions and delusions in fact ! that is what is needed in fact ! So that we have a Life that is worthy of Christ ! That's why he came ! to save our Soul !
So we are not lead astray by Carnal religious fools !

When one is finished in this flesh and your Soul goes ? that is another story !
But here on this earth, we strive not to be as when God kicked us out of Paradise ?
Paradise is the Kingdom of God ! here on earth.
Heaven is Above ? and we are to follow that example ? regardless, so we stop and think before we act on our own ? as Heavens order is our Gift to follow along with ?

But as for now we are looking back at all History that we know of and what is the future ? So what will your Children inherit ? the Children of who ? Christ Jesus or of this world ?

Jesus said that he came to give us so that we would have Life in abundance ? that is not money wealth as carnal morons chase their tail for 24/7 but real Life that abounds from above and within one who is truly Saved ! for we feel that joy, for we have that life within us, a life of Virtue in Salvation as it's a Gift ! a Gift above all Gifts for it's Life in Glory of our Saviour who is our Lord ! we are not lossed, for we are found !
Some morons that I know are all about the 2ed comming of ? But if one is looking for a 2ed Comming you are not Saved in fact !
For if you were truly Saved then you are Saved regardless, so one is not seeking, but Found, Now !
Yes the Second Comming will come, but what are we called to do ? well abide in Christ Jesus period and only do his will in fact.

For I know of total morons who clearly only want Hellfire to come on all, But they will not see the Hellfire that they wish on everyone who is not on their path ? but what is in their heart, I ask ? it sure is not Grace in fact !

For If one has Grace one does no wrong to others regardless, for Christ Jesus is their example in fact !
Did Jesus do wrong by anyone ? Never ! Did Jesus want people to be Lost on the wrong path ? No not at all !

Christ Jesus has given us all we need in fact ! and he does not come back in the Flesh in fact, but he is of the Holy Spirit in fact, and if one has not the Holy Spirit you are not worthy of Him in fact !

Jesus was once in the Flesh in fact, but people did not know him, not even his disiples truly untill he went to Heaven and became Christ Jesus ! and it's the Holy Spirit that gives you the Gift to understand who he truly is in fact !

 

[Scott Downey]

I didn’t say sins don’t currently affect us or our relationship with God. If I rob a bank I’m forgiven because I’m a Christian but I’m going to have to be put in prison for that crime and that crime will have an effect on my testimony for Jesus. That crime could cost me some of my reward because that crime was not a righteous effort and I might have been given more opportunity to put forth greater righteous effort if I had not committed that crime, but that all takes place here and now.

You will give an account to God for every deed you did in the body, good or bad in judgment from Him.

You must have missed this, you will be judged for the bad things you did (like sinful behaviors), that judgment can have a painful outcome.
Why do you deny this?

2 Cor 5

The Judgment Seat of Christ​

9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.

 

[grafted branch]

You will give an account to God for every deed you did in the body, good or bad in judgment from Him.

You must have missed this, you will be judged for the bad things you did (like sinful behaviors), that judgment can have a painful outcome.
Why do you deny this?

2 Cor 5

The Judgment Seat of Christ​

9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.

My sins will not be remembered, I’m a believer and Jesus payed the full price for all my sins, He didn’t make a partial payment.



Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Clearly we all will be at the judgment seat. Those that have done good get eternal life, those that don’t do good get wrath. Nobody is without sin, we are all guilty of being contentious, not obeying the truth, and obeying unrighteousness. That’s a basic definition of sin. Yet those who get eternal life don’t get indignation and wrath, their sins aren’t remembered, and they are being treated as if they are without sin.



Mark 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, 30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

We get rewards during our physical life on earth, and eternal life after we die.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes agree, but many pre mills believe differently. It is how they explain the ability to have flesh and blood children born during the earthy Millenium time, and how their kids then fight against Christ. They say of believers, some are flesh and blood bodies and some spiritual glorified bodies, who reign on earth 1000 years.

Nope. All Premills I know of believe the living survivors of the trib are changed into immortals that do not marry just as the resurrected dead won't. Some Premills believe the unsaved nations will marry and have children. I don't believe God will give anyone children during that time but the bible is silent on the matter.

 

[Scott Downey]

My sins will not be remembered, I’m a believer and Jesus payed the full price for all my sins, He didn’t make a partial payment.



Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Clearly we all will be at the judgment seat. Those that have done good get eternal life, those that don’t do good get wrath. Nobody is without sin, we are all guilty of being contentious, not obeying the truth, and obeying unrighteousness. That’s a basic definition of sin. Yet those who get eternal life don’t get indignation and wrath, their sins aren’t remembered, and they are being treated as if they are without sin.



Mark 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, 30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

We get rewards during our physical life on earth, and eternal life after we die.

When it says your sins will not be remembered that has to do with eternal death, because God said the soul that sins shall die.
A Christian's sins won't be remembered to the judgement of eternal death.

As Romans 4 says this way

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

Romans 14

10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of [c]Christ. 11 For it is written:

“As I live, says the Lord,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

You still sin, but the punishment of eternal death is NOT IMPUTED to you, your sins are covered.
You though will still give account to God for everything you did in life.

That includes the sins you committed, it just won't result in a death in the lake of fire at the end.

 

[Scott Downey]

Sometimes God judges sin right away in this life, example here and this is why some Christians got sick and some died.
Following some posters line or argument there is no judgement penalty for sin committed by a believer.

Conduct at the Lord’s Supper​

17 Now in giving these instructions I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better but for the worse. 18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be [b]recognized among you. 20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper. 21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame [c]those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.

Institution of the Lord’s Supper​

23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, [d]“Take, eat; this is My body which is [e]broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.

Examine Yourself​

27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and [f]blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks [g]in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the [h]Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many [i]sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

33 Therefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgment. And the rest I will set in order when I come.

 

[Jericho]

A Premill accusing an Amill of taking scripture too literally. There's a new one.

How does withholding rain correspond with Jesus breaking them with His rod of iron like a vase being shattered into pieces?

There are such things as figures of speech, metaphors, idoms, etc.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Can’t be, in Luke 24:29 they constrained Him, which is a much stronger effort than “touch”.

Luke 24:28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further. 29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.

I have no idea what your point is here. Can you explain?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There are such things as figures of speech, metaphors, idoms, etc.

Oh really? Who knew?

Did you miss the point? It's usually Premills accusing Amills of spiritualizing scripture too much instead of accusing us of being too literal.

 

[Pierac]

Okay, Dad. Why should we listen to you when you blatantly twist scripture by inserting your own words into scripture where they don't belong such as when you added 1000 years between Christ's return and the end when He hands over the kingdom to the Father?

Which Paul are you talking to? Silly child... I did not write... 1Co_15:22-28... I just added to whom the He and Him were.... Sorry if I offended your feminine pronouns! (Little kitten)

Did not Jesus say the meek will inherit the earth... Mat 5:5 "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

Do you really think the meek have Inherited the EARTH? ... AS YOU SIT IN YOUR MOMMA'S BASEMENT LOOKING FOR A JOB!

You speak as a child still living in your momma's spiritual basement.... !!!

Change your name from Spiritual... Pussy cat! or you can just cut it short... But drop Israelite... as you are not worthy of such a name... kitty!

 

[grafted branch]

I have no idea what your point is here. Can you explain?

Here’s what you said in post #103 …

“What John 20:17 means is not that Mary literally couldn't touch Him. No, the reason He said that is that He didn't want her to cling to Him because He was not going to be staying around much longer. She had to start accepting that He was going to be leaving her soon, so she should not cling to Him too much or she would not be able to handle Him leaving.”

In Luke 24:29, they constrained Jesus, not only were they “clinging” to Jesus, they strongly urged Him not to leave. They took it one step further in Luke 24:28-29, and Jesus complied to their request and tarried with them.

If your interpretation of John 20:17 is correct, then we should be following Jesus’ example and start telling people not to cling to us because otherwise they’ll get emotional and won’t be able to handle it. Have you ever told a loved one not to cling to you when you come over or when you’re leaving them? I don’t know how many emotional people you’ve been around but I’ll tell you this, if I told my wife not to cling to me before I was going to leave on a long trip, she would be extremely hurt and far more upset than she would be otherwise.

I don’t know what you’re thinking but your interpretation makes Jesus out to be a mean spirited person.

 

[AngelicArcher]

Free gasoline.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Which Paul are you talking to? Silly child... I did not write... 1Co_15:22-28... I just added to whom the He and Him were.... Sorry if I offended your feminine pronouns! (Little kitten)

Grow up. You added your own words to the holy scripture and I called you out on it. And instead of acknowledging it, you resort to childish insults.

Did not Jesus say the meek will inherit the earth... Mat 5:5 "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

Yes, He did and they will. Scripture teaches that this earth will be renewed when Jesus comes, resulting in the new earth (2 Peter 3:10-13), and we will then inherit the (renewed/new) earth.

Do you really think the meek have Inherited the EARTH? ... AS YOU SIT IN YOUR MOMMA'S BASEMENT LOOKING FOR A JOB!

No, I don't. Your personal insults only show your immaturity and how no one should take you seriously.

You speak as a child still living in your momma's spiritual basement.... !!!

Says the person speaking like a child. Grow up, kid.

Change your name from Spiritual... Pussy cat! or you can just cut it short... But drop Israelite... as you are not worthy of such a name... kitty!

Pathetic. But, thanks for proving that no one can take you seriously so that we can know not to waste time reading your childish posts.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here’s what you said in post #103 …

“What John 20:17 means is not that Mary literally couldn't touch Him. No, the reason He said that is that He didn't want her to cling to Him because He was not going to be staying around much longer. She had to start accepting that He was going to be leaving her soon, so she should not cling to Him too much or she would not be able to handle Him leaving.”

In Luke 24:29, they constrained Jesus, not only were they “clinging” to Jesus, they strongly urged Him not to leave.

Do you ever consider context? Luke 24:29 has a completely different context from John 20:17. What I was saying about Mary clinging to Jesus was in relation to Jesus not wanting her to depend on His presence too much because He was going to be leaving the earth soon. That's why He said not to touch Him. He didn't want her to rely so much on His physical presence that she would be completely devastated when He left.

If your interpretation of John 20:17 is correct, then we should be following Jesus’ example and start telling people not to cling to us because otherwise they’ll get emotional and won’t be able to handle it.

LOL. Are we planning to leave the earth any time soon? I don't think so, right? So, what you're talking about is not the same context as the situation with Mary and Jesus. Why do you not take the context of scripture into account?

I don’t know what you’re thinking but your interpretation makes Jesus out to be a mean spirited person.

LOL. Not true at all. You say you don't know what I'm thinking. You got that part right. You are completely misunderstanding me. With that being the case, how can you act like you understand my interpretation? You clearly don't which makes this discussion a waste of time.

 

[grafted branch]

Do you ever consider context? Luke 24:29 has a completely different context from John 20:17. What I was saying about Mary clinging to Jesus was in relation to Jesus not wanting her to depend on His presence too much because He was going to be leaving the earth soon. That's why He said not to touch Him. He didn't want her to rely so much on His physical presence that she would be completely devastated when He left.


LOL. Are we planning to leave the earth any time soon? I don't think so, right? So, what you're talking about is not the same context as the situation with Mary and Jesus. Why do you not take the context of scripture into account?


LOL. Not true at all. You say you don't know what I'm thinking. You got that part right. You are completely misunderstanding me. With that being the case, how can you act like you understand my interpretation? You clearly don't which makes this discussion a waste of time.

And that’s why I don’t take you seriously. You are relying on complete speculation that Mary would somehow be devastated if she touched Jesus.