Truth7t7
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Jesus returns in fire and final judgement (The End) there won't be a millennial kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim
So pre mills actually think when they come down to this earth after a rapture, their stuff left behind will still be there?
- Thread starter Scott Downey
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Here is an example in scripture in the NT that does not point us to an earthly kingdom
Hebrews 11
Hebrews 11
The Heavenly Hope
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off [e]were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.That city God has built for us in heaven right now. Hebrews 12 clearly teaches this to us.
Yet once more God will shake both earth and heaven for their removal, you know there is the Day of Judgment coming!
27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we [l]may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
We are to receive this kingdom at the return of Christ when He destroys the world on the Day of the Lord, judges the world, and each one goes to the place allotted for them in the Kingdom of God, Matthew 25, and God creates NEW earth and heavens wherein dwells righteousness. You do understand heaven held evil in that Satan and his angels rebelled in heaven.
Only on the NEW earth do heaven and earth fully unite with the heavenly Jerusalem descending out of Heaven onto that new earth.
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the [j]general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we [l]may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Yet once more God will shake both earth and heaven for their removal, you know there is the Day of Judgment coming!
27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we [l]may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
We are to receive this kingdom at the return of Christ when He destroys the world on the Day of the Lord, judges the world, and each one goes to the place allotted for them in the Kingdom of God, Matthew 25, and God creates NEW earth and heavens wherein dwells righteousness. You do understand heaven held evil in that Satan and his angels rebelled in heaven.
Only on the NEW earth do heaven and earth fully unite with the heavenly Jerusalem descending out of Heaven onto that new earth.
The Glorious Company
18 For you have not come [g]to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and [h]darkness and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned [i]or shot with an arrow.” 21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the [j]general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hear the Heavenly Voice
25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I [k]shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we [l]may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Revelation 21
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said [b]to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It[c] is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes [d]shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, [e]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said [b]to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It[c] is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes [d]shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, [e]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Then Jesus testifies to the churches about this city and who will have to right to enter into this city.
This is the only city from which God and His people reign on the new earth. Not an earthly Jerusalem in a 1000 year earthly reign on the old earth.
There is no such description anywhere in Revelation that describes such a place.
Rev 22
1 And he showed me a [a]pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.
7 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
8 Now I, John, [c]saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. [d]For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” 10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. 11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him [e]be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”
14 Blessed are those who [g]do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
15 [h]But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
This is the only city from which God and His people reign on the new earth. Not an earthly Jerusalem in a 1000 year earthly reign on the old earth.
There is no such description anywhere in Revelation that describes such a place.
Rev 22
1 And he showed me a [a]pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.
The Time Is Near
6 Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the [b]holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.7 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
8 Now I, John, [c]saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. [d]For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” 10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. 11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him [e]be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”
Jesus Testifies to the Churches
12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the [f]Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”14 Blessed are those who [g]do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
15 [h]But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Who will have children in the Millennium?
WHO WILL HAVE CHILDREN IN THE MILLENNIUM? by Shawn Brasseaux Before answering your question using the Bible, for the benefit of our readers unfamiliar with the passage to which you are referring, w…forwhatsaiththescriptures.org
Example here
In Isaiah’s prophecy above, we see “a little child” (verse 6) leading the wolf, the lamb, the leopard, the kid (baby goat), the calf, the young lion, and the fatling (a young animal such as a calf or lamb). “The sucking [nursing] child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’s den” (verse 8). These human children are playing by the hole of the asp (a venomous snake) and by the den of the cockatrice (another type of venomous snake), and yet they are unharmed because the curse on creation has been lifted! From where did these human children come?
The greatest number of children born during the Millennium will evidently come from believing Gentiles who blessed believing Israel during the seven-year Tribulation. These Gentiles are described in Matthew 25:31-40 (which read in your Bible). Furthermore, there are a number of believing Jews who will not die during the seven-year Tribulation. In that group of Jewish believers, a large number of Jews will be hiding out in the wilderness, free from the wrath of the Antichrist, God taking care of them until the seven years end (Revelation 12:5-6,13-17). Believing Jews (we do not know the exact number) will be physically alive to see Jesus Christ literally come back to Earth at His Second Coming (Zechariah 13:8-9; cf. Zechariah 12:10; Matthew 24:30-31; Mark 13:26-27; Luke 21:27-28). Evidently, these Jews, having never died, will also enter the 1,000-Year Reign of Jesus Christ with the ability to reproduce.
CONCLUSION
Considering what the Lord Jesus said in Matthew 22:30, and what Isaiah wrote in chapter 11, the children born during the Millennium will be the children of believing Jew and believing Gentile parents who survived Daniel’s 70th week, those who never died, those who did not receive resurrected bodies.
Sorry, but much of that is simply a FALSE CONCLUSION because your basing it on THE FLESH.
Don't you recall Lord Jesus saying those of the resurrection don't marry? There won't be sex in that world to come simply because sex is a matter of the flesh for this present world. The future resurrection is to a "spiritual body", which also is what those still alive will be 'changed' to on the day of Christ's return, NOT to another new flesh body!
So the Old Testament suggestion some think means flesh children being born in the world to come with Christ's future Millennial reign, is all for naught.
That is what many pre mills really do believe.
Apparently, they explain away what Jesus says by saying the dead in Christ rise at His return and they since having been resurrected do not marry. While the ones who remained alive, when Christ returns, are not resurrected. They still have flesh and blood bodies, and can marry.
So those who remain alive at His return do not have a resurrection.
I agree with what you say, as we shall all be changed at His return. But they do not believe that.
Davy
Well-Known Member
You are going around just bit 'in circles'.
In 2 Corinthians 5, Apostle Paul revealed that we 'already'... have that other body of the heavenly, a spirit body, because he said that if our earthly house (our flesh body) were dissolved, we still have another building of God, eternal in the heavens. And Hebrews 4:12 reveals God created us not just with flesh and bone, but also with a spirit and a soul. And our spirit with soul is NOT of flesh material matter, not of this earthly dimension at all. It is of Spirit, comes from God's Spirit in the heavenly. So it sounds like you have not studied this matter enough and don't understand, yet you have a lot of company, because there are many brethren in Christ that still don't understand about our spirit body, nor what it actually will be that Christ will redeem when He comes again.
On the day when Jesus returns, this present flesh world will be over, done with. None of us will be in flesh bodies anymore. That idea will be done with. That is what God's "consuming fire" burning man's works off this earth on that day of Christ's return will do.
So Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 is not going to be like some walking around in "spiritual bodies" while others are still walking around in flesh bodies and having babies.
About our being changed. It does not explicitly exclude those who have not died from being exempt from being changed.
We shall not all die, some will remain alive at His return, but we shall all be changed, is how this should be read.
Not that you must die, be resurrected, then changed into an incorruptible body.
Our current flesh and blood body is dead because of sin, (Romans 8:10), physically we abide in death in our current flesh and blood bodies, it is corruptible. So, whether we are living or dead at His return, we shall all be changed incorruptible. There is not separation of resurrected saints from living in their body saints caught up to Christ in the air.
But pre-mills teach this separation and difference in destiny of saints for the millennial reign. The ones not resurrected, can marry and birth kids, the other can't.
1 Cor 15
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a [m]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
We shall not all die, some will remain alive at His return, but we shall all be changed, is how this should be read.
Not that you must die, be resurrected, then changed into an incorruptible body.
Our current flesh and blood body is dead because of sin, (Romans 8:10), physically we abide in death in our current flesh and blood bodies, it is corruptible. So, whether we are living or dead at His return, we shall all be changed incorruptible. There is not separation of resurrected saints from living in their body saints caught up to Christ in the air.
But pre-mills teach this separation and difference in destiny of saints for the millennial reign. The ones not resurrected, can marry and birth kids, the other can't.
1 Cor 15
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a [m]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
Davy
Well-Known Member
Those two above statements contradict each other. That's what I mean with going around in circles.
It's important to accept what we are told in The Scriptures, and Revelation 20 reveals ONLY one more type of 'death' remaining after Christ's future return. Rev.20 calls that the "second death" of the casting into the "lake of fire" at the end of Christ's "thousand years" reign.
Just what is it that goes into... that future "lake of fire"? Flesh? No. One's spirit with soul, even as it will be with Satan and his angels which perish in that future "lake of fire", as they never have had flesh bodies, nor will they ever have flesh bodies.
Nor is the future resurrection about a new flesh body. And remember the 5th Seal about the saints 'under the Altar' asking God, "How long?" until He avenges their blood. Also those "spirits in prison" of 1 Peter 3 which Jesus at His resurrection went to in the heavenly prison, and preached The Gospel to them. That was actually a prophecy in Isaiah 42:7 that was to happen at His 1st coming, and it did. Then 1 Peter 4 reveals The Gospel was preached also to "the dead", so they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
1 Peter 4:6
6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV
Yes agree, but many pre mills believe differently. It is how they explain the ability to have flesh and blood children born during the earthy Millenium time, and how their kids then fight against Christ. They say of believers, some are flesh and blood bodies and some spiritual glorified bodies, who reign on earth 1000 years.
They also must believe a lot of flesh and blood bodied believers are having bazillions of children as the way they read Rev 20, the enemies of Christ number like the sands on the seashore during the millennial reign of Christ on this earth. What a failure of the reigning of Christ and the saints.....
Rev 20
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Apostle Paul was actually pulling from Isaiah 25 about death being swallowed up in victory on that day of Christ's coming. And the detail in Isaiah 25 hints that is when God is going to remove the fleshy... veil that is spread over all nations. So when Paul said that about the victory over 'death', he meant it for ALL... peoples, not just those of the "first resurrection".
I have to remind folks, though many still won't believe God's Word about it, that there was a previous world prior to the time of Adam and Eve. That previous world was when Lucifer was perfect in his ways serving God at His Throne, as a cherub that covereth (i.e., guarding God's Throne, see God's parable about the "king of Tyrus" in Ezekiel 28). And that was upon this earth. Genesis 2 even reveals that God's River of the Waters of Life and Tree of Life was once upon this earth. Ezekiel 47, Revelation 22, and Zechariah 14 shows its return to this earth at Christ's return.
That previous world when Lucifer followed God was not one of man in flesh bodies. So no Neanderthal type suggestions please, because it was a time of an angelic existence upon this earth. That is why fossil remains of dinosaur footprints having stepped upon perfect human arch footprints have been found, while no human skeletal remains have been found back to the time of the dinosaurs. God's Paradise was then upon this earth, which is what Genesis 2 reveals.
And Genesis 1 reveals that the Heavenly dimension of Spirit always had existed first, prior to His earthly creation. For like John says in John 4:24, "God is a Spirit". Genesis 1 also reveals that the image of man originates from God's Own Image Likeness in the Heavenly. So my Christian brethren need to learn to quit thinking with their flesh all the time when studying God's Word, and realize this difference of The Spirit and that 'other' dimension, and how it was once manifested UPON this earth, and will be manifested here on earth yet again when Jesus comes.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Yet that idea of some in resurrection bodies with others still in flesh bodies is nowhere written in God's Word, but just the opposite idea is written (like the 2 Cor.5 chapter, and like the Isaiah 25 Scripture Paul was pulling from that I referenced).
When Paul said this...
1 Cor 15:51
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
KJV
... he was basing it upon the Isaiah 25 Scripture about death swallowed up in victory, with God removing the veil that is spread over ALL nations (meaning our flesh veil).
Isa 25:6-8
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
KJV
Like Apostle Paul also said...
1 Cor 15:49
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
KJV
Have the wicked borne that "image of the earthly", meaning a flesh body likeness? YES! Likewise, they also shall bear that future "image of the heavenly", the "spiritual body" that Apostle Paul taught in that Chapter. The difference with the wicked though will be they will be liable to perish at the "second death". That's the difference between them and those in Christ of the "first resurrection".
Understanding all that should be easy, since it is what is actually written in God's Word.
Philippians 3
Our Citizenship in Heaven
17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
Our being changed, happens to all His saints, living or dead at His glorious appearing and kingdom 1 Tim 4... we will no longer be flesh and blood, and will not be having any children or being married.
I propose that the Millennial reign is real, and it's happening in the heavenly city of the New Jerusalem.
The 1000 years is figurative of a long indeterminate time known only to the Father before the return of Christ to this earth.
And I am a New Covenant Christian, I follow what Christ says about these things and what His apostles say in the New Testament.
Example, where do the living saints go when they die? And technically our citizenship is there right now.
Hebrews 12
The Glorious Company
18 For you have not come [g]to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and [h]darkness and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned [i]or shot with an arrow.” 21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the [j]general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Davy
Well-Known Member
The Rev.20 "thousand years" is NOT FIGURATIVE. It will be LITERAL.
When God's Word gives us a distinct period of time WITHOUT a metaphor or analogy attached to it, then it is meant literally. Such is the case in Rev.20 about Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect Church that remain faithful until His coming.
When God's Word gives us a distinct period of time WITHOUT a metaphor or analogy attached to it, then it is meant literally. Such is the case in Rev.20 about Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect Church that remain faithful until His coming.
like the figurtive thouand here?
Rev 5:11
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands,
A very large number is what is implied, and 1000 years implies a reign of a long time.
John in Revelation saw visions of things to come and it does contain figurative language and illustrations.
Rev 9
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone.
The other proof of the text is that it moves back and forward in time, it does not progress steadily in time from beginning to end. Different events are pulled out of a timeline and discussed out of time.
Like this, Rev 6 happens at the end with the earth vanishing, passing away, and them seeing Christ coming in power and glory to destroy them all, yet it is close to the beginning chapters of this book, which is like a book with many books.
Rev 6
Rev 9
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone.
The other proof of the text is that it moves back and forward in time, it does not progress steadily in time from beginning to end. Different events are pulled out of a timeline and discussed out of time.
Like this, Rev 6 happens at the end with the earth vanishing, passing away, and them seeing Christ coming in power and glory to destroy them all, yet it is close to the beginning chapters of this book, which is like a book with many books.
Rev 6
Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and [g]behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the [h]moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky [i]receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, [j]the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”Pretty good at exploring 1000 years as figurative.
www.mikerogersad70.com
Arguments Against a Literal 1000 Years
Let’s define the term “literal.” It means “adhering to fact or to the ordinary construction or primary meaning of a term or expression.”3 The literal sense of a word is its usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory.
Inmillennialism asserts that the millennium is not a literal 1000-year period. If we could measure the elapsed time in this period, our stopwatch would not read “1000 years” at its end. Instead, “a thousand years” (Rev. 20:2–7) is a metaphor that represents a long period. Two facts support this position.
First, Revelation uses symbols as a primary tool to convey its message. Its first verse announces this method. An angel would “signify” the revelation to John (Rev. 1:1). This means he would “show by a sign”4 without stating the literal facts (cp. John 18:32; 21:19).
John sees “signs” or “wonders” throughout the book (e.g., Rev. 12:1, 3; 13:13, 14; 15:1). He expects the reader to recognize his symbology without calling attention to it. Jesus said “the seven candlesticks . . . are the seven churches.” He did not mean a literal candlestick stood in each of the seven cities of Asia (Rev. 1:20).
To understand “a thousand years,” we should recognize this reality. “Much of Revelation is portrayed in symbolic concepts.”5 Therefore, our first inclination is to view this number as non-literal.
Second, the Scriptures almost always use the number 1000 figuratively. God says, “every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills” (Ps. 50:10; emphasis added). He does not mean we could use a click counter to measure the number of hills on which he owns cattle. “A thousand hills” is a metaphor that means all hills; all cattle on all hills belong to the Lord.
A prophet said, “A little one shall become a thousand.” This is the same as saying, “a small one (shall become) a strong nation” (Isa. 60:22). The metaphorical thousand is also the metaphorical strong nation. This shows the great increase with which God would bless Israel. Literal numbers are not in view. We should not imagine that a census would measure a literal 1000-person multiplication.
Other examples of figurative uses of “a thousand” (or multiples thereof) include: Deut. 1:11; 7:9; 1 Chron. 16:15; Ps. 68:16–17; 84:10; 90:4; 91:7; 105:8; Eccles. 6:6; 7:28; Song of Sol. 4:4; Isa. 7:23; 30:17; Amos 5:3; 1 Sam. 18:7; etc.
The analogy of faith requires us to examine John’s “thousand year” term in its context. At the book level, Revelation declares its reliance on symbols to convey its message. At a higher contextual level, the Scriptures use “a thousand” as a figure many times. So, inmillennialism takes “a thousand years” in Rev. 20 as a metaphor that represents a long time.
1000 YEARS (The Millennium) – MIKE ROGERS AD 70
www.mikerogersad70.com
Arguments Against a Literal 1000 Years
Let’s define the term “literal.” It means “adhering to fact or to the ordinary construction or primary meaning of a term or expression.”3 The literal sense of a word is its usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory.
Inmillennialism asserts that the millennium is not a literal 1000-year period. If we could measure the elapsed time in this period, our stopwatch would not read “1000 years” at its end. Instead, “a thousand years” (Rev. 20:2–7) is a metaphor that represents a long period. Two facts support this position.
First, Revelation uses symbols as a primary tool to convey its message. Its first verse announces this method. An angel would “signify” the revelation to John (Rev. 1:1). This means he would “show by a sign”4 without stating the literal facts (cp. John 18:32; 21:19).
John sees “signs” or “wonders” throughout the book (e.g., Rev. 12:1, 3; 13:13, 14; 15:1). He expects the reader to recognize his symbology without calling attention to it. Jesus said “the seven candlesticks . . . are the seven churches.” He did not mean a literal candlestick stood in each of the seven cities of Asia (Rev. 1:20).
To understand “a thousand years,” we should recognize this reality. “Much of Revelation is portrayed in symbolic concepts.”5 Therefore, our first inclination is to view this number as non-literal.
Second, the Scriptures almost always use the number 1000 figuratively. God says, “every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills” (Ps. 50:10; emphasis added). He does not mean we could use a click counter to measure the number of hills on which he owns cattle. “A thousand hills” is a metaphor that means all hills; all cattle on all hills belong to the Lord.
A prophet said, “A little one shall become a thousand.” This is the same as saying, “a small one (shall become) a strong nation” (Isa. 60:22). The metaphorical thousand is also the metaphorical strong nation. This shows the great increase with which God would bless Israel. Literal numbers are not in view. We should not imagine that a census would measure a literal 1000-person multiplication.
Other examples of figurative uses of “a thousand” (or multiples thereof) include: Deut. 1:11; 7:9; 1 Chron. 16:15; Ps. 68:16–17; 84:10; 90:4; 91:7; 105:8; Eccles. 6:6; 7:28; Song of Sol. 4:4; Isa. 7:23; 30:17; Amos 5:3; 1 Sam. 18:7; etc.
The analogy of faith requires us to examine John’s “thousand year” term in its context. At the book level, Revelation declares its reliance on symbols to convey its message. At a higher contextual level, the Scriptures use “a thousand” as a figure many times. So, inmillennialism takes “a thousand years” in Rev. 20 as a metaphor that represents a long time.
Hi Scott. This seems to be a strawman argument to me. I've never heard of any premillennials who believe such things, and it would be impractical in any case. The majority of people who have ever lived died hundreds and thousands of years ago, so they couldn't just continue on with their old lives even if they wanted to. Plus, marriage and procreation are just for us mortals. A resurrected body has no need of such things. I don't know how it's going to be, but it will be different. We leave our current lives behind when we die. The only thing we really take with us are the relationships we have formed in this life.
If you are pre mill, then you will be living your life as you were down here during that 1000 years of time, but with all the modern technologies developed since you died. That is what they believe. Especially so for the most recent saints who are raptured, they would be familiar with all the world had at that time they were caught up in the air.
I posted some of what Pre Mills believe, maybe you can add on some more.
Frankly I find the whole Pre Mill doctrinal theme depressing, when you actually look at the doctrines.
Christ beating people with rebar rods, maybe His people will also is what they are saying.
It is a preaching of a fleshly world kingdom, not a spiritual one. Not any different from any of the other despotic kingdoms of the past.