Should sin triumph over grace in the end?

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Eternally Grateful

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Indeed.
Thanks for your post. The example of Saul/Paul is a good one.
Was God just with Paul? (yes)

The human view of justice revolves around revenge. (a sin)
Which Christians are happy to accuse God of.


[
Punishment is not revenge. This is nonsense

When a man commits murder and get the death penalty. that is the result of his sin. Not revenge.
 

ProDeo

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Are you understanding the word of God?

I live in my old man of sin @ProDeo ...I’m in the new man, my sins were forgiven past, present, future, the evening I became Born Again,
Any Scripture for the blue?

KJV - 1Joh 3:9 - Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
ESV - 1Joh 3:9 - No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Which translation is true?

so how can I live in sinless perfection?
Whatever translation is accurate (what John meant to say) it should fit seamlessly with what he wrote 2 chapters before, namely -

1Joh 1:8 - If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Joh 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Joh 1:10 - If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Are we in agreement now?
 
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Ritajanice

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Any Scripture for the blue?

KJV - 1Joh 3:9 - Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
ESV - 1Joh 3:9 - No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Which translation is true?


Whatever translation is accurate (what John meant to say) it should fit seamlessly with what he wrote 2 chapters before, namely -

1Joh 1:8 - If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Joh 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Joh 1:10 - If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Are we in agreement now?
No we aren’t in agreement.
John is saying if we say we are without sin, we make him a liar, correct, I live in my old body of sin.

I am now in my new man, have been for the past 33 yrs...do you understand the new man @ProDeo ?..are you clothed in the righteousness of Christ @ProDeo ?..do you know in your spirit that God has forgiven all our sin, didn’t you feel the burden of sin lift, the moment Spirit gives birth to spirit?
I am now Born Again, a Born Again does not sin because they have been Born Of God, His seed remains in them?

You should know in your spirit that we don’t sin in the eyes of God...we are Born Of God, he doesn’t say we were touched by him, he doesn’t say we are enlightened by him, he says we must be Born Again to see the Kingdom Of God

Please explain what the seed remains in us means?.maybe then I can get a better understanding of where you are coming from.

So far you seem to have dodged my questions and am confused as of to why?

Discussion my friend is two way, not one way.
 
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ProDeo

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I am now in my new man, have been for the past 33 yrs...do you understand the new man @ProDeo ?..are you clothed in the righteousness of Christ @ProDeo ?
I am now Born Again, a Born Again does not sin because they have been Born Of God, His seed remains in them?
Are you saying you haven't sinned the last 33 years?
 
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Ritajanice

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Are you saying you haven't sinned the last 33 years?
Are you going to answer my questions?

I’ve already answered your question above, now please answer mine, if you don’t know what it means that Gods seed remains in us,then you aren’t in any position to say that I sin.

A Born Again does not sin because they have been Born Of God His seed remains in them, please answer the question?
 

IronMaiden

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Ecc 7:20 Not a single person on earth is always good and never sins.
I agree.

Romans 3:23-26 (NKJV) 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth [as] a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
 
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Ritajanice

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1 John 3​

King James Version​

3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother
.
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
 
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IronMaiden

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1 John 3:6 needs to be read with understanding. This verse is referring to a person who is a habitual sinner, one who has a disregard for God’s laws, love, and salvation. Habitual sinners lack interest in God's teachings and His ways.

To be born of God means not being a habitual sinner; and when we do sin, we repent of our sins and ask our Father to forgive us. And He will…

Psalms 103:12-14 (NKJV) 12 As far as the east is from the west, [So] far has He removed our transgressions from us. 13 As a father pities [his] children, [So] the LORD pities those who fear Him. 14 For He knows our frame; He remembers that we [are] dust.
 
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Ritajanice

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To be Born Of God, means to be Born Again,His seed remains in our spirit that is where we have been Born Of The Spirit, the Spirit is Alive and Active in our hearts, conforming us into the image of Jesus, we will bear his fruit,our character will become more Christlike..
We are in the new man, we have a new heart/ spirit within, a Born Again has also been gifted spiritual eyes and ears, the moment they are regenerated, the Holy Spirit helps us develop our spiritual eyes and ears, we are also gifted with discernment.
The seed who is the Living Holy Spirit penetrates the heart/ spirit, that is where His Living seed has taken up residence.in our spirit, hence Spirit gives birth to spirit, a supernatural, divine, heart, revelation birth..
Repeatedly posting bible verses, does not make one’s spirit Born Again, that comes by divine heart, revelation ,just as the word confirms.
A Born Again does not repent of sin any longer once they have been supernaturally birthed , because they have been Born Of God and his seed remains in them.permanently, ..

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Short commentary.

At the moment of salvation, the Holy Spirit enters the believer, and “the Spirit gives life” (. The Spirit remains in us as a deposit guaranteeing our salvation and as a guide for the new life of spiritual rebirth ( “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!”
Another perspective.

First John 3:9 describes a person who has been born of God: “No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning because they have been born of God.” God our Father is holy, and He desires that His children become holy like He is . When we are born of God, we have a new heart, one that wants to please God ,This does not come about by good intentions or white-knuckled effort. We please our new Father by surrendering to His Holy Spirit who lives within us. We allow Him to change our desires, our goals, and our will to conform to His (. As a baby grows to look like the parents to whom it was born, so do we grow to be more like our heavenly Father when we are born of God .

Romans 8​

King James Version​

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
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Aunty Jane

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Ultimately, I believe no one is beyond redemption.
Most people hope for an afterlife in the spirit realm. So when readers of the NT Scriptures come across the expression “everlasting life,” many think that it always refers to life in heaven. Is that true? What did Jesus mean when he spoke of “everlasting life”? What did his disciples believe? Did the OT hold out the hope of everlasting life in heaven or on earth? Did the coming of Christ change that?

These are important points because so many have an expectation that will never be realized.
Going back to Genesis (the beginning is a very good place to start) what was God’s purpose in creating man alone “in his image”? Why put mortal beings of flesh and blood on a material earth to live a beautiful and productive life….only to have them die and go somewhere else?

What did God tell them to do? He told them to “fill the earth” with their children (not just the garden) and to “subdue” the land outside, beyond Eden. (Gen 1:27-28) They had a living example of what God wanted this whole earth to look like, in a beautiful garden that God himself had planted. He did not make the whole earth a paradise, but was going to involve his earthly children in that project. By extending the boundaries of the garden and filling the earth with more willing workers, physically and mentally able to carry out the task, were they limited by time or a limited lifespan in carrying it out?

There were two trees in the garden…one guaranteed “everlasting life”….and the other guaranteed “death”.…which was the only penalty for disobedience. There was no going to “heaven or hell” ever stated.
And there was no natural cause of death ever mentioned to Adam.

Gen 3:17-24 gives us a clue about what happened when sin, caused by disobedience, came into that scenario….and interrupted it.

”To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’ “Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you,and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.” . . . .
The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.”
(NIV)

What picture does that paint when you read those words? Do you see any hint of humans being given life in heaven after a sojourn on earth? Or was earth to be the place where they were meant to “live forever”?
Death would mean a “return to the dust”…nothing more sinister than that.

If access to “the tree of life” had not been denied and cherubs used to guard the way, along with that flashing sword….what might have happened if the now sinful humans could eat of that tree and live forever? Would that not have been a recipe for disaster?

So God evicted them from the garden with all the fruit trees that were theirs for the taking with no toil involved at all, but now denied to them….what was life going to be like? The ground was cursed so that growing things wound be difficult…..weeds, thorns and thistles would compete with the food crops that they would need to make “bread” to eat. Here we see a complete reversal of what they had in the beginning…..but why did God not just punish them and allow them to repent and be offered forgiveness? Why did he handle the situation as he did?

Firstly, God’s creation is perfect and with mankind being made in God’s image and likeness, he was given autonomy or free will…but within the limits set by his Creator. Were those limits restrictive, causing them hardship in any way? Or was it the influence of a rebellious spirit son, a cherub stationed in the garden, placed there as a guardian? Observing all that was transpiring, this angel began to envy the worship given to God by these two humans….intelligent but lower in station and power than himself.…ideal to become his worshippers if only he could separate them from their Creator. He devised a plan and carried it out, using the newly created woman as bait for the much wiser and better educated Adam.

By dividing his loyalties, it was Adam who threw all his children under the bus (Rom 5:12)….he chose to side with his disobedient wife, rather than remain loyal to his God….and the rest as they say….is history.

So having that history as a foundation to build on, what was God’s first purpose for the human race…and where did he design them to live forever? Was “heaven or hell” even mentioned? Did the Jews ever believe that humans would go to heaven? Did they believe in hell from their Scripture?
What of the now rebellious spirit son? Would God now have rebels in both realms to teach an important lesson?

OT Scripture is absent of the idea of either “heaven or hell” as a destination for humans. All hope was centered around the coming of an earthly kingdom arrangement that would involve God sending a Redeemer to buy the human race back with a price already set…..a perfect sinless human lost “everlasting life (on earth) for all his children, and a perfect sinless human was required under God law of atonement to redeem them, paying like for like….a perfect life given in exchange for a perfect life lost for all of Adam’s offspring.

In the meantime the greatest object lesson in history would “separate the sheep from the goats” whilst maintaining God’s Universal Sovereignty, and his right to set limits on the freedom he gave to them.
We would get to live a life with sin governing it in every way….so that in the record, man would have no way to justify ever disobeying God again. Having been taken here and experiencing what sin has done in this world…would we ever want to go back to where we are now? Those who love this world will go down with it by their own choices. God has no place for those who do not want to obey him.

The one thing that would “separate the sheep from the goats” was obedience. God has no desire to destroy any of his angelic or human children, but all were aware of his authority over them and all would choose their own destiny by demonstrating their unquestioning obedience to him as their God and Sovereign Ruler…like all those servants of old who are mentioned in Hebrews ch11. Even when they did not understand his commands, they still knew that God never does anything for no good reason, so they simply did as God instructed them. Imagine the outcome in the beginning if the three rebels in Eden had done just that? We would never have been subjected to this life.

So another burning question is……what about all those people who have lived and died without knowledge of God and his Christ…..? Does God care about them too? Yes, he does, which is why there will be a period of judgment for these ones whom Jesus will call from their graves. (John 5:28-29) They will get an opportunity to get to know the true God and to bring their lives into harmony with his requirements during the thousand years that Christ will rule with his elect (specially chosen by God for positions in his kingdom) to bring all of humanity back into reconciliation with their Creator. (Rev 21:2-4)

What God purposed in the beginning, Jesus came to get back for us….everlasting life in paradise on earth….who could want anything more?
 
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ProDeo

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Are you going to answer my questions?

I’ve already answered your question above, now please answer mine, if you don’t know what it means that Gods seed remains in us,then you aren’t in any position to say that I sin.

A Born Again does not sin because they have been Born Of God His seed remains in them, please answer the question?

I can't say you are absolutely wrong, I just don't have the guts to believe your interpretation as it feels wrong to believe I am without sin (I know it isn't true) and is quite prideful, actually it feels like a sin to start believing I am without sin.

God bless you.
 

MatthewG

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I agree.

Romans 3:23-26 (NKJV) 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth [as] a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Hello @LatterRain,

This is why it's it the Lord Yeshua, whom does all things which come in and through us by the spirit of Christ which I believe resides within the heart. Though this flesh is imperfect and always will be and those people can do what is considered good or bad, due to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It's the spirit that helps do what is heavenly, as the flesh does the earthly by the admittance of our own initial actions within our souls from our mind/will/emotions.

There are many people that believe that they are able to subdue the flesh, while I do believe the more spiritual a person comes to God the less the flesh is able to react and the more spiritual a person will handle situations in and through Christ. I believe all people start out as a babe in Christ, and can grow and mature in and through Yeshua, as they seek faith in the Lord God.

However, there are those who do not care, nor even seek God in faith. There has to be a difference between non-faithful people, and those who are faithful, and it has nothing to do with our flesh, but it has everything to do with the spirit. This however is just my opinion, we have all fallen short of the glory of God, and that glory which is shown in the creation of God, which shows his handiwork. Has been and always will be the "Word of God" whom became known as Yeshua.

Praise be to the Lord Yeshua, whom gets us to the Father in heaven.
 
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