Should sin triumph over grace in the end?

[St. SteVen]

I was asked recently about my personal belief that "all" people will be saved.

An example was cited of some horrible cruelties that had been delivered mercilessly
upon an individual, resulting in their death. The example, it seems, was given
to prove that God could never forgive such a horrible deed. That justice was demanded.
And by inference, ultimate redemption and salvation could not be the result.
This would not be justice, in human eyes. Therein lies the problem.

Is there any sin that humankind is capable of that the Atonement did not cover?
Was God only planning to redeem the righteous?

What if the cruel individuals described later came to confession of their sin and repentance?
Would God withhold forgiveness?

Yes, I believe everyone is already saved due to the complete work of Christ on the cross.

But this does not mean that there will not be a judgement/evaluation of each individual.
It's not a free pass into heaven. In fact I believe that some who think they have any easy way in
will face some serious corrective measures. Jesus had this to say.

Matthew 21:31 NIV
... Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes
are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.

Should sin triumph over grace in the end?

As humans we have a desire for revenge. This desire is sinful. IMHO


We are told in scripture not to take take revenge. A sin for us.
Most believe that this means that God can take revenge for us.


But I believe that God does not operate a lower standard than he holds us to.
In fact, Jesus teaches us that it is godly behavior to love our enemies.
What then should he do with his own enemies?


Matthew 5:43-48 NIV
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’
44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven.
He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good,
and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?
Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47 And if you greet only your own people,
what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


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[Eternally Grateful]

sin will not triumph, Jesus took care of that problem

however. Unbelief can triumph over grace. Because God will not force you to recieve his gift of salvation based on grace through faith.

If you reject it. you doom yourself. there will be no salvation for you

 

[St. SteVen]

sin will not triumph, Jesus took care of that problem

How so?

however. Unbelief can triumph over grace. Because God will not force you to recieve his gift of salvation based on grace through faith.

I'm familiar with this POV.
So, sin is not BIGGER than grace, but unbelief is? Same result. (grace loses)
As if the will of humankind overrules God's will. (on earth as it is in heaven)

If you reject it. you doom yourself. there will be no salvation for you

Blame the victim. ???

Has everyone had the opportunity to either accept, or reject? (nope)
Do you claim that NOT accepting is equal to rejecting?
Most are not even concerning themselves with the claims of the church.
Can't say that I blame them. But you seem happy to do that.

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[Eternally Grateful]

How so?

the cross.

I'm familiar with this POV.
So, sin is not BIGGER than grace, but unbelief is? Same result. (grace loses)
As if the will of humankind overrules God's will. (on earth as it is in heaven)

No, Grace does not lose. And Love wins.

God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son, So that WHOEVER BELIEVES will NEVER PERISH, but Live forever.
He who believes is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already

Jesus did nto die for unbelief my friend. He will not force you to recieve his salvation.

but he will nto save you unless you do

Blame the victim. ???

Victim?

Dude, if you know the truth, but love your sin more so deny the truth. and end up dying, its on you.

You want to blame God because a person rejected him?

Has everyone had the opportunity to either accept, or reject? (nope)

yes they have, everyone has been made God conscious. everyone has an opportunity to seek out God.. Whoever seeks God God will find..

Do you claim that NOT accepting is equal to rejecting?
Most are not even concerning themselves with the claims of the church.
Can't say that I blame them. But you seem happy to do that.

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This has nothing to do with the church, it has to do with a person's eternal soul.

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus did nto die for unbelief my friend.

What do you make of this?

Romans 5:8 NIV
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this:
While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours
but also for the sins of the whole world.

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[Eternally Grateful]

What do you make of this?

Romans 5:8 NIV
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this:
While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours
but also for the sins of the whole world.

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we,, Paul is talking about believers. Not the world

Again, He paid for the personal sins of the world. He did not pay for unbelief

what part of Jesus words "he who does not believe is condemned already" do you fail to comprehend?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Has everyone had the opportunity to either accept, or reject? (nope)

yes they have, everyone has been made God conscious. everyone has an opportunity to seek out God.. Whoever seeks God God will find..

Earlier you wrote that those who reject the gift of salvation are doomed.
Are there still unreached people groups in the world?
Countless Billions have gone into the afterlife with no knowledge whatsoever.

Unreached People Groups-100 Largest | Joshua Project

Unreached People Groups-100 Largest. Including maps, sortable statistics and downloadable data.

joshuaproject.net

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[Ritajanice]

You can’t reject being Born Of The Spirit...there are those who have no understanding of what it means.

We have overcome the power of sin, when God decides to give birth to our spirit, that’s not by choice of man’s will, it’s by Gods choice.

You cannot choose to receive the supernatural rebirth, the pride of some men/ woman believe they can.

They are also very limited in their understanding of spiritual matters, they either won’t answer your Spirit questions or evade them altogether.

You can only seek God by faith once he’s made himself known to you, by His Living witness the Holy Spirit, only he can testify of Jesus, just as his word says.

No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

The gift of Gods supernatural faith is Alive and Active in us...

The regenerating Of our spirit, is performed supernaturally via the Holy Spirit, he brings our spirit from death to life, then and only then we have faith from God to be able to walk in the Spirit....and know him in our heart / spirit.

It’s because of the cross we can receive the spiritual rebirth, the cross does and cannot birth our spirit..

 

[Bob]

Thank you for your post and reasonable arguments.

So: let’s indeed employ Jesus’ various pronouncements and see if we can find a resolution to your questions.

Yes, He said to love our enemies (no personal vengeance, etc.), but He also said a community should defend itself—-Matthew 18: 15-17. In other words a community has the authority and responsibility to deal with commandment violations.

Now: the best nations hold that governments should safeguard the lives and liberties of its citizens. Moreover, these nations have justice systems, with due process before a person’s liberty is curtailed. These nations also reject cruel and unusual punishments.

Is it reasonable to assume such justice systems are God inspired? (And we know what justice looks like when the rule of law is ignored.) If so, we might speculate that the saved spirit is given the most liberty by God, but the unsaved spirit might have spiritual liberties curtailed (but no cruel or unusual punishments).

Many criminals have the potential for redemption, so perhaps many unsaved spirits have a similar potential.

But some criminals are given life sentences without parole, and some are given death (as humanely as we know how).

So, might some unsaved souls have no possibility for redemption, and some might have their spirits erased from existence?

Again: no direct scriptural justification, but based on Jesus’ teachings, and that we believe the best justice systems are God-inspired.

Blessings.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

St. SteVen said:
Has everyone had the opportunity to either accept, or reject? (nope)

Earlier you wrote that those who reject the gift of salvation are doomed.
Are there still unreached people groups in the world?
Countless Billions have gone into the afterlife with no knowledge whatsoever.

Unreached People Groups-100 Largest | Joshua Project

Unreached People Groups-100 Largest. Including maps, sortable statistics and downloadable data.

joshuaproject.net

[

And?

I have spoken to missionaries who went to unreached peoples. and when they got there the people said God was going to send them, and to listen.

when people are positive to Gods calling. God acts.

When people will not respond no matter what God does. God does not have to respond. Why send his people in danger to a perople who will never receive them?

You can try to tear the character of God down all you want. In the end he will win.

and those who reject him will be lost. forever.. It does not matter what people think.. they can be mad all they want. No one is to blame but the people who rejected him

 

[Behold]

Yes, I believe everyone is already saved due to the complete work of Christ on the cross.

God doesn't....agree, according to His word.

and also....that is why Hell exists, its for those who are not "saved"

and Rev 20:11, exists, for those who are not "saved".

and the verse is found in the BIBLE that explains that only those whose name is IN the Lamb's book of life, will be remaining with God and Christ, in Heaven., is for those who are "not SAVED".

Its a WARNING !

Listen,
: your lack of understanding regarding John 3:36 ....is the reason why your false theology makes the Devil happy, but does not do the same for the Holy Spirit. @St. SteVen

 

[St. SteVen]

Many criminals have the potential for redemption, so perhaps many unsaved spirits have a similar potential.

This is a great point.
When we view criminals as a number instead of a person, we can mindlessly
run them through death row based on a crime and a sentence.

But if we view them as a human with a name and history, we can discover
what went wrong and work with them to correct and restore them.

Ultimately, I believe no one is beyond redemption.

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[Behold]

Ultimately, I believe no one is beyond redemption.

Anyone who dies "in their sin"... as a Christ rejector, never born again... is beyond redemption.

Hell is filled with them,.. and thousands more will go there today..........and some are water baptized lifelong church members who have a demonic degree in "why i believe the bible is filled with errors".

 

[St. SteVen]

Anyone who dies "in their sin"... as a Christ rejector, never born again... is beyond redemption.

Hell is filled with them,.. and thousands more will go there today..........and some are water baptized lifelong church members who have a demonic degree in "why i believe the bible is filled with errors".

This is why people hate Christians.

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[Behold]

This is why people hate Christians.

In not going to bend the Bible, disparage the Bible and pretend that The Cross of Christ saved everyone.

I'll leave all that in your capable hands, @St. SteVen

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is why people hate Christians.

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Or we could say it’s why they hate God. Because God is a just God.

 

[St. SteVen]

Or we could say it’s why they hate God. Because God is a just God.

That doesn't explain your behavior.

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[Eternally Grateful]

That doesn't explain your behavior.

[

What?

listen my freind. If reading the word of God and stating what it says offends you. Thats not my problem.

if you call that hate speach or whatever you think it is. Thats to bad.

Jesus said they will hate us, because of what we stand. If it means being hated because i stand on the truth, as apposed to sacrifice truth for a lie. Then I will chose the truth every time.

if you want to hate me, hate me, I will not negatiate the truth for you or anyone else.

I will love you. And not judge you (thats Gods job) but I will not stop reading the word.

as Jesus also said, it is not you they hate, it is me they hate

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:

That doesn't explain your behavior.

What?

listen my freind. If reading the word of God and stating what it says offends you. Thats not my problem.

if you call that hate speach or whatever you think it is. Thats to bad.

Jesus said they will hate us, because of what we stand. If it means being hated because i stand on the truth, as apposed to sacrifice truth for a lie. Then I will chose the truth every time.

if you want to hate me, hate me, I will not negatiate the truth for you or anyone else.

I will love you. And not judge you (thats Gods job) but I will not stop reading the word.

as Jesus also said, it is not you they hate, it is me they hate

Sorry. It sounded like you were defending the hateful words of @Behold

Anyone who dies "in their sin"... as a Christ rejector, never born again... is beyond redemption.

Hell is filled with them,.. and thousands more will go there today..........and some are water baptized lifelong church members who have a demonic degree in "why i believe the bible is filled with errors".

Hopefully you had a problem with these words too?

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[Behold]

St. SteVen said:


Sorry. It sounded like you were defending the hateful words of @Behold

God has designed Salvation, as His own Son, being Sacrificed for the sin of the world, one SINNER at a time.

Jesus is "the GIFT of Salvation"..

"One sinner at a time" = who will come to Jesus and be forgiven.

If they wont have it... then they have "rejected, willfully, the only sacrifice for sin"....

So, because Christ was not allowed by THEM.... to become their """" "God hath Made JESUS>... to be sin... for us""""..... then they chose to die unforgiven, which Jesus defines as... "you shall die in your sin(s)".
Those are not "hateful words"... those are words of eternal opportunity, or eternal warning.

See, THE CROSS is not just the Eternal Sacrifice of Jesus.. found........ its also a warning Light......an eternal warning Light.

So, no one is forced to be forgiven.. No one is forced to accept God's love and God's heaven, but all are accountable for their choice.

See, FREE WILL comes with Consequence. And if you FREELY Choose to not trust in Christ, and to reject God...never being born again.... then you made the free will choice to spend your eternity, without them... and they are in Heaven........so, the unbeliever wont be going there, except to meet Rev 20:11

And the only other PLACE that has been created for an eternal spirit, was originally created for "the DEVIL and His fallen Angels"..

= HELL

Therefore, because unbelievers , never born again are defined by Jesus as..."you are OF YOUR FATHER.. .the Devil"..... so then they will go to the place, after they DIE, that is created for their Father., whereas Christians will go to.... = THEIR "HEAVENLY" Father.