Secure Eternal Salvation

[Marymog]

If we read acts , it becomes very clear that the true overseers of the churches , WERE the apostels .
When they had that dispute , THEY went to the apostles in jerusalem to clear up the matter
THE TWELVE were the overseers of the churches . And peter was not over them , they were all equals .
But it was the church in jerusalem , aka the apostels . Sure there was paul and others who helped to oversee
But even paul went unto that church . Paul did not bow to them nor kiss rings , heck they would not have allowed that nonsense .
BUT you can SEE that was the main overseer . JESUS the corner stone and the twelve apostels . By the time of constantine
it had all fallen . But like the jews had fallen too , at least they had scribes who did faithfully keep the scrips .
My advice is let all that draws breath come out of her . The true church still abounds , its the lambs .
And lambs dont let lambs sit under that which teaches falsehoods .

Yup, they were all equals. In vs 6 it says that they all discussed what should be done to resolve the matter. In vs 7-11 Peter addressed the assembly and gave his opinion. And then what happened in vs 13 amigo? James deferred to what Peter had told the entire assembly in vs 7-11!

I could also give you about 50 other verses from Scripture that shows Peters primacy over all the other Apostles and the Church but I suspect your men have taught you that he did not have primacy so I digress......


Mary

 

[amigo de christo]

Yup, they were all equals. In vs 6 it says that they all discussed what should be done to resolve the matter. In vs 7-11 Peter addressed the assembly and gave his opinion. And then what happened in vs 13 amigo? James deferred to what Peter had told the entire assembly in vs 7-11!

I could also give you about 50 other verses from Scripture that shows Peters primacy over all the other Apostles and the Church but I suspect your men have taught you that he did not have primacy so I digress......


Mary

James was reminding them about what peter had said . That no more proves a thing .
IF i came in here and another one reminded someone else of what i said , Does that mean i am ruler or leader of them .
Your seeing too much into your churches teachings . And rest assured , peter wore no big hat nor did he have
the peoples bowing down to him and kissing his rings.

 

[Illuminator]

James was reminding them about what peter had said . That no more proves a thing .

Yes, it does. You refute yourself. Your anti-institution mentality blinds you from the ecclesiology in Acts 15.

IF i came in here and another one reminded someone else of what i said , Does that mean i am ruler or leader of them .

You are forced to reduce James' words to a mere reminder. James acknowledges Peter's authority, but you don't, contrary to at least 50 passages where Peter is the spokesman for all the Apostles, both/and leader of the Church..

Your seeing too much into your churches teachings .

None are so blind as those who refuse to see. You should stop getting "Catholic teaching" from so called "Christian" sources dedicated to bearing false witness against Catholics. That garbage will rot your mind.

And rest assured , peter wore no big hat nor did he have the peoples bowing down to him and kissing his rings.

You make a cheap childish derailer because you have no case, no understanding of biblical ecclesiology (because you don't have any), and no development.
Development of Doctrine: A Corruption of Biblical Teaching? | Dave Armstrong

 

[Marymog]

James was reminding them about what peter had said . That no more proves a thing .
IF i came in here and another one reminded someone else of what i said , Does that mean i am ruler or leader of them .
Your seeing too much into your churches teachings . And rest assured , peter wore no big hat nor did he have
the peoples bowing down to him and kissing his rings.

Hmmm......so according to what your men have taught you James was just "reminding them" of the rhetorical question that Peter asked them in vs 10? That rhetorical question had absolutely no influence on their decision? Fascinating.....

You are seeing too much into what your men have taught you amigo which is opposite of the 2,000 year teaching of Christianity. I can quote men of The Church from almost 2,000 years ago affirming that Peter was preeminent among the Apostles. I suspect the men you would quote saying opposite of that lived 500 years ago or less. ;)

Also, Scripture is rife with references to Peter being mentioned 1st amongst the Apostles and Peter is mentioned 155 times with the rest of apostles combined being only mentioned 130 times.

Peter has the faith to walk on water
Peter is first among the apostles to confess the divinity of Christ.
Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.
Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head.
Peter speaks on behalf of the apostles by telling Jesus that they have left everything to follow Him.
etc
etc
etc

I could go on and on and on....but you get the picture! Well, actually you don't, because your men have mislead you!

Sooooo please do tell me amigo: Why do you and your men put down the importance of Peter when Scripture and the men that lived closest to the time that Peter lived lift him up in importance? Who should I believe? YOU and your men? Or Scripture and the men that lived in his era?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Yes, it does. You refute yourself. Your anti-institution mentality blinds you from the ecclesiology in Acts 15.

Hi Illuminator,

@amigo de christo doesn't see how he is refuting (contradicting) himself. On one hand amigo is agreeing that James deferred (he uses the word reminding) to what Peter said in vs10 but on the other hand he is saying that James made the decision.

What I don't understand how he can say that James was the decision maker (the leader) of all the Apostles at the Council of Jerusalem and that Peter wasn't but then go on to say that the Apostles didn't have a leader that made decisions for all the Apostles.

I guess he just doesn't want Peter to be the leader because that would then uphold the 2,000 year teaching of The Church that Peter was chosen by Jesus to be the leader of The Church?

 

[Marymog]

Ye shall make no images to bow down to them . This is an abomination unto God .

Where does Scripture say that?

 

[Illuminator]

If we go to Acts 15, we read that there was a lot of debate in the Church about whether Gentile converts needed to be circumcised. After the debate, Peter “rose” and declared that circumcision was not necessary. James was not even in the picture at this point. Peter made an authoritative decision about the doctrinal question, and no one questioned him. In fact, after Peter spoke it says “all kept silent.” When you read the Greek phrase, it is in the aorist tense, which means the silence was the effect of Peter’s definitive teaching.

After Peter settles the issue, Paul and Barnabas speak in favor of Peter’s teaching. Only then does James come in. A few things about James’ discourse. First, James was the bishop of Jerusalem during the council, and it is common for a bishop to speak in favor of the pope’s teaching at a regional or ecumenical council. This is what James does. He agrees with Peter’s definitive teaching. Second, James begins speaking, not about the doctrinal issue, but about whether the Gentiles should obey the Noachide laws. At the end of James’ speech, he says “it is my judgment.” The Greek here (ego krino) means that James was giving a personal opinion about a pastoral issue, and recommends that the Gentiles obey the laws of Noah so as to more easily fraternize with the Jews.

So we see that Peter is the one who rules definitively on the question of doctrine, and all kept silent. His bishops then spoke in favor of his teaching, acknowledging that Peter was indeed the authority in the Church. No one questions Peter’s judgment. Then we have James who speaks in favor of Peter’s teaching by giving an opinion on a pastoral issue. Hardly a challenge to the authority of Peter.

Acts 15 disproves the doctrine of sola Scriptura. If Peter would have relied upon the Scriptures, he would have concluded that Gentiles had to be circumcised, since all the Patriarchs and prophets were, the apostles were, and even Jesus was. But Peter, by virtue of his authority, decides the issue as the chief shepherd of the Church (and the decision was not based on the Scriptures).

 

[amigo de christo]

I know little to nothing about this protestant history stuff .
I tried to tell us i was not raised in any church and i did not learn their doctrines .
God simply put a love for truth upon my heart . He put me into the bible . I learned that
and He kept me safe . And by His grace i was built up by HIS inspired words in that bible .
This has kept me very safe from the CC as well as many false protestant churches .
I suggest all to return to the bible and learn it well . I See way too many
making or trying to make converts to their religoins and denominations .
As for me i shall point to CHRIST and continue by Grace in the bible and stay alert
and refreshed in the Truth . Its truly depressing to watch men point to traditoins and churches
that walk contrary to the TRUTH of the RISEN LORD and of the apostels .
I keep saying get back in those bibles , but many wont do that simple thing .
Instead if or when they do read it , they read it under the lens of what their leaders taught them .
I am saying , READ it for yourselves , get it well engrained and eyes would have been opened .

 

[amigo de christo]

Hi Illuminator,

@amigo de christo doesn't see how he is refuting (contradicting) himself. On one hand amigo is agreeing that James deferred (he uses the word reminding) to what Peter said in vs10 but on the other hand he is saying that James made the decision.

What I don't understand how he can say that James was the decision maker (the leader) of all the Apostles at the Council of Jerusalem and that Peter wasn't but then go on to say that the Apostles didn't have a leader that made decisions for all the Apostles.

I guess he just doesn't want Peter to be the leader because that would then uphold the 2,000 year teaching of The Church that Peter was chosen by Jesus to be the leader of The Church?

I never said James was the decision maker . THEY all were . They all had a voice .
They were seen as equals . They had no pope . Peter was no pope .
James was referring to what peter had said . Remember they ,as in the apostels even rebuked peter
Now peter did set them straight by telling them about HOW GOD had sent to HIM a vision
and how that now , even the jews could go into houses of gentiles.
James , Cephas and John . Who seemed to be pillars . NOW paul makes mention of THREE names there . Not just peter .
And paul also made sure to say , Whatsover they were it matters not to me , GOD is no respector of persons .
And even if Peter was the leader . THE CC sure has NOT FOLLOWED HIS EXAMPLE .
That man never had folks running up to him and kissing HIS rings . Your popes never even followed the example
of peter . WHOM they claim . SO EVEN IF peter was the leader . The popes are nothing like that man .
THEY always decked themselves up in fancy clothes , loved to be called REVERAND And HOLY FATHER
and had folks kissing their rings and bowing before them and My goodness look at all the other things
that are contrary to both the example of the apostles and CHRIST .
Telling folks you can pray people out of hell . I studied the popes . AND it was written by a catholic
WHO even supported your church . The reason i steer clear of the CC
is because of what is became . You all act like churches cannot fall away or become leavened .
BUT THEY SURE CAN . And the CC DID . But every time someone points out simple truth to you
or eliminator , or bread of life , or even thee faith , You all make excuse and twist the simple
truth to jusitfy what you should be repenting from .
SO what is the point to keep brining bible doctrine to you or them , when all you do is never listen .
I am so sad for you all . I TRULY desire only good for you all . I Truly desire life and good for you all .
But you nor they will listen . Its truly depressing and very sad for my soul
to watch this . I want to help people , not watch them destroy themselves .
WHY wont you just return to the scriptures and at least study them again FOR YOU .
Read them over and over again and watch what would happen .

 

[Marymog]

I never said James was the decision maker . THEY all were . They all had a voice .
They were seen as equals ....

You are absolutely right amigo. You never said James was the decision maker. I put words in your mouth and I shouldn't have done that. What you said was that James reminded them about what Peter had said in vs 10. And, you are right in that they all had a voice. Even though you didn't say that James was the decision maker, Scripture does say he was the decision maker: Therefore I (James) have reached the decision....(some translations say "judgment")

Scripture is silent on what all the other Apostles opinion (voice) was on the matter. Was Scripture silent on what Peter's opinion was? Why is it silent on everyone else's opinion but not Peter's?

Scripture makes it very clear what Peter's opinion was. What does Scripture say on who's opinion James went with? He went with Peter's opinion (vs14). So, in summary, Scripture makes it clear that it was James who made the final decision (vs 19) and that decision was based on the opinion and only the opinion of Peter (vs 10). If James made the final decision then he MUST have been the leader of the meeting. The reason he was the leader of the meeting is because they were meeting at the church he was in charge of; the church at Jerusalem. Scripture makes it clear that James was the leader of the meeting but he deferred to the opinion of Peter. Why did he do that amigo? Can we find other examples in Scripture of Peter being the main spokesperson for the Apostles? (hint, the answer is yes) The earliest historical Christian writings we have also say that Peter was the leader of the Apostles. Why do you reject what Scripture and your own Christian history makes very clear?

 

[Marymog]

SO what is the point to keep brining bible doctrine to you or them , when all you do is never listen .....WHY wont you just return to the scriptures and at least study them again FOR YOU . Its truly depressing and very sad for my soul
to watch this .Read them over and over again and watch what would happen .

Hey Amigo,

So if I adhere to YOUR interpretation of Scripture and adhere to YOUR doctrine that will show that I am listening and you won't be depressed/sad anymore? If I listen to YOU I will be saved? Is that what you are saying?

Curious Mary

 

[amigo de christo]

Hey Amigo,

So if I adhere to YOUR interpretation of Scripture and adhere to YOUR doctrine that will show that I am listening and you won't be depressed/sad anymore? If I listen to YOU I will be saved? Is that what you are saying?

Curious Mary

I am simply saying what i do to all . If JEHOVAS WITNESSES , IF MORMONS
if, feel in the names of denominations or cults etc , WOULD go back to the bible
and learn for themselves , eyes could be opened .
I have witnessed to both catholics and jws , adventists and mormons and etc .
DO you know the one thing they have in common . THEY all accuse others of being wrong and following men
AND YET they all do the same things . Its like watching a madhouse .
We must return to the scriptures .
An example Is when i spoke to the JW , they were telling me about How THE CC heeds its men and system and not the word of GOD .
OKAY . BUT SO DO THEY . THEY act as though the Watch tower is GOD INSPIRED .
SO they cling to men as does the CC , as does the Mormon , jospeh smith and the book of morni
as does the adventist to ellen white and her investigative judgement .
THE ONE thing that could have opened their eyes to see their own error was IF they would READ
the bible for themselves and stop lettin their leaders twist it unto them .
Folks I am only trying to help people .
WE have got to return to the bible and learn the doctrine for our selves .
That is what i am saying . I have seen catholics do this and they end up coming out of that Church
JW have done it and end up coming out of that church , Mormons do it and end up coming out of that church .
THIS IS WHAT i am trying to do for you all . IF You would seriously read the bible for yourselves
pray to GOD for understanding . YOU WOULD GET IT . And eyes will be opened .
BUT so long as we just trust in our denomination , our ways , our church leaders , WE AINT GONNA MAKE IT .
Deception is not just in the CC , ITS ALL OVER THE PLACE . WE MUST return to our bibles and learn THAT JESUS
learn THOSE apostels and learn that doctrine . That is all i am trying to get folks to do .

 

[Marymog]

I am simply saying what i do to all . If JEHOVAS WITNESSES , IF MORMONS
if, feel in the names of denominations or cults etc , WOULD go back to the bible
and learn for themselves , eyes could be opened .
I have witnessed to both catholics and jws , adventists and mormons and etc .
DO you know the one thing they have in common . THEY all accuse others of being wrong and following men
AND YET they all do the same things . Its like watching a madhouse .
We must return to the scriptures .
An example Is when i spoke to the JW , they were telling me about How THE CC heeds its men and system and not the word of GOD .
OKAY . BUT SO DO THEY . THEY act as though the Watch tower is GOD INSPIRED .
SO they cling to men as does the CC , as does the Mormon , jospeh smith and the book of morni
as does the adventist to ellen white and her investigative judgement .
THE ONE thing that could have opened their eyes to see their own error was IF they would READ
the bible for themselves and stop lettin their leaders twist it unto them .
Folks I am only trying to help people .
WE have got to return to the bible and learn the doctrine for our selves .
That is what i am saying . I have seen catholics do this and they end up coming out of that Church
JW have done it and end up coming out of that church , Mormons do it and end up coming out of that church .
THIS IS WHAT i am trying to do for you all . IF You would seriously read the bible for yourselves
pray to GOD for understanding . YOU WOULD GET IT . And eyes will be opened .
BUT so long as we just trust in our denomination , our ways , our church leaders , WE AINT GONNA MAKE IT .
Deception is not just in the CC , ITS ALL OVER THE PLACE . WE MUST return to our bibles and learn THAT JESUS
learn THOSE apostels and learn that doctrine . That is all i am trying to get folks to do .

Ummmmm.....OK. I will "seriously read the bible" so that I can "learn the doctrine" for myself. When I do this my "eyes will be opened". I will then no longer 'follow men'. I will follow what my interpretation of Scripture is......wait a minute!!!:cool: If I follow MY interpretation of Scripture after I have seriously read the bible and learned what doctrine the bible is REALLY teaching based on MY interpretation...... I am still not following a (hu)man? Which would be......ME? Right? Hmmmmm......I don't think you thought your theory out to it's final conclusion because that is the final conclusion of your theory amigo.

Even if anyone tells you that they have done all those things that YOU think they should do AND their truth (interpretation of Scripture) ends up being different that YOUR TRUTH you will tell them they need to go back and "seriously read the bible" so that their "eyes will be opened" so that they "learn the doctrine" for themselves. And you will keep telling them that until they agree with your interpretation of Scripture.

Keeping it real....Mary

 

[amigo de christo]

Ummmmm.....OK. I will "seriously read the bible" so that I can "learn the doctrine" for myself. When I do this my "eyes will be opened". I will then no longer 'follow men'. I will follow what my interpretation of Scripture is......wait a minute!!!:cool: If I follow MY interpretation of Scripture after I have seriously read the bible and learned what doctrine the bible is REALLY teaching based on MY interpretation...... I am still not following a (hu)man? Which would be......ME? Right? Hmmmmm......I don't think you thought your theory out to it's final conclusion because that is the final conclusion of your theory amigo.

Even if anyone tells you that they have done all those things that YOU think they should do AND their truth (interpretation of Scripture) ends up being different that YOUR TRUTH you will tell them they need to go back and "seriously read the bible" so that their "eyes will be opened" so that they "learn the doctrine" for themselves. And you will keep telling them that until they agree with your interpretation of Scripture.

Keeping it real....Mary

THEN you will see clearly to be able to test all men . No one said we dont have those who lead the church .
The problem is most who are leading the churches are false and those who sit under them know it not .
So , Open that bible and feast on it like never before . And keep feasting on it . EYES would be opened .

 

[Marymog]

THEN you will see clearly to be able to test all men . No one said we dont have those who lead the church .
The problem is most who are leading the churches are false and those who sit under them know it not .
So , Open that bible and feast on it like never before . And keep feasting on it . EYES would be opened .

I, and many men, have meet YOUR arbitrary criterea.....and we all still disagree with you. But I know that you will always be right and we will always be wrong....

 

[amigo de christo]

I, and many men, have meet YOUR arbitrary criterea.....and we all still disagree with you. But I know that you will always be right and we will always be wrong....

YOU learned your CHURCHS interpration of said scriptures . WHY Do you think
so many run to and fro . ONE HOLLERS be A JEHOVAH and another hollers BE YE A MORMON
and another says BE YE A CATHOLIC and another says and so on it does go .
MY DEAR FRIEND . THE PROBLEM IS NOT with the scriptures . ITS WITH THOSE WHO SIT UNDER
those who teach polluted interpreations of said scrips . I watch every group use this and that , saying and claiming
this version of greek or heed ye my scholar . AND YET their scholars and thier greek
contradict each other and seem to jusitfy their own churches version . GEE . WONDER WHY THAT IS .
CAUSE MEN are decieving my friend . YOU must go and learn the scrips for YOURSELF .
DO Not bring your churches books or its greek . YOU read it for yourself .
Folks make such a big ado about how we cannot understand the letters of the apostels , or the words of Christ .
AND YET , when the apostles wrote those letters , IT was not like they wrote them in some hidden code
RETURN to the bible . Let your heart be humbled and you seek and pray and read and learn FOR YOURSELF .

 

[Marymog]

YOU learned your CHURCHS interpration of said scriptures . WHY Do you think
so many run to and fro . ONE HOLLERS be A JEHOVAH and another hollers BE YE A MORMON
and another says BE YE A CATHOLIC and another says and so on it does go .
MY DEAR FRIEND . THE PROBLEM IS NOT with the scriptures . ITS WITH THOSE WHO SIT UNDER
those who teach polluted interpreations of said scrips . I watch every group use this and that , saying and claiming
this version of greek or heed ye my scholar . AND YET their scholars and thier greek
contradict each other and seem to jusitfy their own churches version . GEE . WONDER WHY THAT IS .
CAUSE MEN are decieving my friend . YOU must go and learn the scrips for YOURSELF .
DO Not bring your churches books or its greek . YOU read it for yourself .
Folks make such a big ado about how we cannot understand the letters of the apostels , or the words of Christ .
AND YET , when the apostles wrote those letters , IT was not like they wrote them in some hidden code
RETURN to the bible . Let your heart be humbled and you seek and pray and read and learn FOR YOURSELF .

And you learned your interpretations from yourself.....What's the point you are trying to make amigo?

So many run to and fro because of what the men of the Reformation did to divide Christians. They taught that anyone can interpret Scripture fro themselves and if they FEEL like they were guided by the Holy Spirit into the Truth then it must be the Truth....you are a product of the teachings of the men of the Reformation. Congratulations!!!

LOL...and your interpretations are not polluted and YOU are not deceiving? Everyone else is?

Well, @Pearl liked your post so now there are two people in your church instead of just you. But I am willing to bet if the two of you got into a debate about various passages from Scripture and how to interpret them then you would both disagree with each other. But how can that be? After all, according to your theory all one has to do is read the bible with wide open eyes and if your heart is humble and you pray then you can properly interpret Scripture. I am willing to bet Pearl will rarely agree with you doctrine...but at least she likes your unbiblical theory!

What this really comes down to is anyone disagrees with YOU then you tell them to open their eyes, get a humble heart and pray....until they agree with amigo and then and only then will they be right.

Keeping it real...Mary

 

[amigo de christo]

And you learned your interpretations from yourself.....What's the point you are trying to make amigo?

So many run to and fro because of what the men of the Reformation did to divide Christians. They taught that anyone can interpret Scripture fro themselves and if they FEEL like they were guided by the Holy Spirit into the Truth then it must be the Truth....you are a product of the teachings of the men of the Reformation. Congratulations!!!

LOL...and your interpretations are not polluted and YOU are not deceiving? Everyone else is?

Well, @Pearl liked your post so now there are two people in your church instead of just you. But I am willing to bet if the two of you got into a debate about various passages from Scripture and how to interpret them then you would both disagree with each other. But how can that be? After all, according to your theory all one has to do is read the bible with wide open eyes and if your heart is humble and you pray then you can properly interpret Scripture. I am willing to bet Pearl will rarely agree with you doctrine...but at least she likes your unbiblical theory!

What this really comes down to is anyone disagrees with YOU then you tell them to open their eyes, get a humble heart and pray....until they agree with amigo and then and only then will they be right.

Keeping it real...Mary

There are others that are coming to the simple interpretation of scripture .
We do bible studies and prayers together .
My advice stands , Flee the CC and learn that bible well .

 

[Marymog]

There are others that are coming to the simple interpretation of scripture .
We do bible studies and prayers together .
My advice stands , Flee the CC and learn that bible well .

If those "others" disagree with your "simple interpretation of scripture" are they wrong?

When you come together to do your bible study and prayers together do you do what He told you to do in Luke 22:19?

Are the men of the CC not able to learn the bible as well as you and your group?

What this really comes down to is anyone disagrees with YOU then you tell them to open their eyes, get a humble heart and pray....until they agree with amigo and then and only then will they be right.

 

[amigo de christo]

If those "others" disagree with your "simple interpretation of scripture" are they wrong?

When you come together to do your bible study and prayers together do you do what He told you to do in Luke 22:19?

Are the men of the CC not able to learn the bible as well as you and your group?

What this really comes down to is anyone disagrees with YOU then you tell them to open their eyes, get a humble heart and pray....until they agree with amigo and then and only then will they be right.

What it comes down to is we better learn the biblical Christ and the letters of the true apostels in that bible
for ourselves . Cause many are flat out deceived . RETURN to the simplicity o Christ and let all flee the CC .
I say that out of great love for your soul . My desire is none to perish . ITS Why i point to Christ , and say
learn and ensure that one is following THAT JESUS in that bible as well as what those apostels wrote .
I dont come to point folks to the doctrines and traditions of men gone wrong .
But to CHRIST JESUS . I will be praying for you . Hurry and get in that bible and cry unto the glorious LORD
FOR GOD desires not the death of any , but rather they would repent .