Secure Eternal Salvation

[Marymog]

Good grief, don't you read my posts. The witness of the Holy Spirit!
And don't give me any crap about me being wrong about discerning the Spirit. That's my business, between me and God. That doesn't negate the plain words of Apostle John that says every believer has the anointing of the Holy Spirit within them to know when what they are hearing is truth and when it is not. The Catholic church says, no, we're the voice that discerns for you whether or not something is true or not. Don't you see, the very topic of who discerns truth for the believer is one the Catholic church has gotten wrong, lol! All you have to do is read the Bible to see this!

Oh goodness....soooooooooooooooooooo you think that EVERY believer has the anointing of the Holy Spirit with them to know when what they are hearing is truth??? Right? Isn't that what you are saying???

That puts you in a prediciment: Your truth is different than my truth. The Catholic churches truth is different than the baptist. Martin Luthers truth was different then Zwingili's etc etc and so on and so on for the last 2,000 years. So WHO discerns which person OR denomination was led by The Spirit into the Truth???? Can you not see how your theory makes no sense???

 

[theefaith]

What did you find about the plain words of Revelation 2:2 and Romans 15:14 that you are unable to understand?

Tell me by the spirit what is it that Christ commanded his apostles in matt 28:20?

 

[BreadOfLife]

To the word of God
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
matt 18 was given to the apostles

The ONLY way to tell which church is correct. is to study the truly inspired scripture.
You want to place your eternity in the hands of men. Feel free.

Once again, eternity is to long for me to risk listening to men who got it wrong.

and your right. God cares. that's why he gave us the inspired word.

THAT'S your answer??
"Sorry Jesus - I won't listen to you because YOU only told this ti the Apostles ??

Jesus gave supreme earthly Authority to His CHYRCH - here and elsewheee. He told the leaders of His Church (the apostles) that WHATEVER THEY loosed or held bound on earth would also be loosed and held bound in Heaven - that WHOEVER'S sins THEY forgave wouldbe forfivewn - and that WHOEVER listens to or rejects THEM listens to or rejects HIM and the ONE who sent Him (Matt. 16:18-19, Luke 10:16, Hohn 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

2 Tim. 3:16 does NOT make the same claims aboiut one's interpretation of Scripture.
It simply states that Scripture is "PROFITABLE for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".
Scripture IS Authoritative - but the Bible never makes the claim that it is our ONLY or even our finhal Authority the way it does about the Church.

Jesus was ecplicit in Matt. 18 that if an unruly brother won't listen to the CHURCH - that they should be excommunicated.
Paul also reccomended this (1 Cor. 5:1-13).

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Stop it Ferris....your answer makes zero sense. The church that is led by a called and anointed leader is the Church that has "supremacy over the body of believers in the matter of discernment and judgement"????? OK.....WHICH CHURCH IS THAT????? Is it INVISIBLE????????

You can't understand my answer because you are in completely different paradigm of thought about what constitutes the church. I used to be in that paradigm of thought, too, before I was born again. I thought like you in terms of which official religious organization is the one true church. I thought of the church in terms of a doctrinal construct instead of what it actually is, a body of individual believers. When I got born again I could see that the church is composed of the real believers interspersed throughout the religious organizations of the world. Together, with our various gifts and callings we compose the body of Christ, the church.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

OK....Sooooooooo which "gifted believers" have 'demonstrated to you that they have been called and anointed by God'????? You keep making these vague statements but don't back them up with any facts.

In all my years of being a born again believer and attending various churches I have met a handful of pastors and elders that I could see were actually called and anointed by God to hold an official office of ministry in the church. Most were not, but were in the ministry nonetheless.

 

[BreadOfLife]

To the body of believers. That's where we go.:

1If any of you has a grievance against another, how dare he go to law before the unrighteous instead of before the saints! 2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!4So if you need to settle everyday matters, do you appoint as judges those of no standing in the church? 5I say this to your shame. Is there really no one among you wise enough to arbitrate between his brothers? 6Instead, one brother goes to law against another, and this in front of unbelievers!
​

This so obviously discounts your claim to the Catholic priesthood's supremacy over the body of believers in the matter of discernment and judgment. The sum total of us average believers 'of no standing in the church' constitute the 'church' to which disputes can be settled in the wisdom of the Holy Spirit. We don't need your Catholic priesthood to do that. That's the very thing Jesus set us free from in this New Covenant and the indwelling Holy Spirit. The ministry of the Holy Spirit sets the believer free from the tyranny of the corrupt judgments of an elitist, un-spiritual leadership.

WRONG.

First of all - you're the FIRST Protestant that I've ever conversed with that didn't say, "The Bible". But thenm you;re a "Lone Ranger" believer.- something that is condemned by Scripture (Heb. 10:25).

Secondly - when Jesus gave Supreme Authority to His Church - He DIDN'T give it to EVERY individual. This is evidence by the favt that in ALL of the verses pertaining to this Authority - He is ONLY speaking to His inner circlke (Matt. 16:19-10. Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

Here's a little hermeneutical rule sorry for the big wor):
When Jesus was speaking to and instructin the crowds - He was instructing ALL.
When He instructed His inner circle - He was speaking to and instructing the LEADERS of His Church.

Here is a perfect example of the Authority of the Priesthood:
John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. AS THE FATHER HAS SENT ME, so I send YOU.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”

Tell me - WHAT did the Father send the Son to do?
Anser: To bring about the FORGIVENESS OF SIN.

This is why Paul states clearly:
2 Cor. 5:18-20:
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given US the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to US the message of reconciliation. So WE are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through US. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states, “Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence of Christ”

In the Greek - the wprd "Presence" is "Prosopne", which means "PERSON".
Paul and the other priests were FORGIVING sins in the PERSON of Christ. On Latin, this is referred to as "IN PERSONA CRISTI".

Game.
Set.
MATCH.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Your gifted believers are invisible because you can't even point them out to me. Your church is invisible; mine is not.
Give me the name of one person that is currently living that is a "gifted believer that has been called and anointed by God". Just one, that's all I ask of you........I don't think you will provide me one but I am patient!

Reverend John Moore, United Methodist Church, Berrien Springs, Michigan. Dr. Edward Grey, Suncoast Ministries, Hudson, Fl., author, former host, staff member of the 700 Club in Atlanta (now deceased. I'm no spring chicken myself). Names escape me after all these years but they'll come to me... Dean Pratt, Grace Bible Church, Hudson, Fl. Dennis Cox of Beacon Community Church, Hudson, Florida, now in private counseling practice. Jon Hendry, Living Faith Fellowship, Gwinn, MI.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

First of all - you're the FIRST Protestant that I've ever conversed with that didn't say, "The Bible". But thenm you;re a "Lone Ranger" believer.- something that is condemned by Scripture (Heb. 10:25).

↓↓↓

Reverend John Moore, United Methodist Church, Berrien Springs, Michigan. Dr. Edward Grey, Suncoast Ministries, Hudson, Fl., author, former host, staff member of the 700 Club in Atlanta (now deceased. I'm no spring chicken myself). Names escape me after all these years but they'll come to me... Dean Pratt, Grace Bible Church, Hudson, Fl. Dennis Cox of Beacon Community Church, Hudson, Florida, now in private counseling practice. Jon Hendry, Living Faith Fellowship, Gwinn, MI.

So much for your accusation of being a lone ranger, lol.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Secondly - when Jesus gave Supreme Authority to His Church - He DIDN'T give it to EVERY individual.

If you've been paying attention you'd know that I recognize the official spiritual offices in the church, the body of believers. What I don't recognize is the Catholic church leader's claim of possessing those offices.

In regard to settling disputes, Paul said "those of no standing" can pass judgments in such cases, in fact, shaming the church at Corinth for not doing that.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Oh goodness....soooooooooooooooooooo you think that EVERY believer has the anointing of the Holy Spirit with them to know when what they are hearing is truth??? Right? Isn't that what you are saying???

For a Catholic priesthood that's supposed to know it all, how is it that they don't know that 1 John 2:20-27 says that?

That's so ironic, lol. A priesthood of apostles (supposedly) that claim they are the only ones who have the anointing of the Holy Spirit to discern truth from error, who themselves cannot discern the truth of scripture that says all believers have that anointing.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

That puts you in a prediciment: Your truth is different than my truth. The Catholic churches truth is different than the baptist. Martin Luthers truth was different then Zwingili's etc etc and so on and so on for the last 2,000 years. So WHO discerns which person OR denomination was led by The Spirit into the Truth???? Can you not see how your theory makes no sense???

Your problem is you're thinking in terms of what religious organization possesses the one true doctrinal construct. But it's not like that at this time in church history before the return of Christ. How this works is, by reading the Bible and through the witness of the Spirit, I know that the Baptists got this right, the Methodists are right about this, the Charismatics got this right, and so on.

The truth no longer resides in a single organization of theological thought and revelation anymore as it did in the days of the original apostles. You don't understand this because you're stuck in the paradigm of thinking that the true church is the one religious organization that possess the one true doctrinal construct. But it's not like that. Truth is the sum total of all the various fragments of truth spread out in all the various religious organizations of man. Paul warned the Ephesians that this would happen soon after his departure - men distorting the truth to draw people away to themselves (Acts 20:30). Prophecy fulfilled, beginning with the Catholic church. And now we're left to put the fragmented pieces of truth back together in our own hearts and minds and spirits.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

THAT'S your answer??
"Sorry Jesus - I won't listen to you because YOU only told this ti the Apostles ??

Jesus gave supreme earthly Authority to His CHYRCH - here and elsewheee. He told the leaders of His Church (the apostles) that WHATEVER THEY loosed or held bound on earth would also be loosed and held bound in Heaven - that WHOEVER'S sins THEY forgave wouldbe forfivewn - and that WHOEVER listens to or rejects THEM listens to or rejects HIM and the ONE who sent Him (Matt. 16:18-19, Luke 10:16, Hohn 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

2 Tim. 3:16 does NOT make the same claims aboiut one's interpretation of Scripture.
It simply states that Scripture is "PROFITABLE for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".
Scripture IS Authoritative - but the Bible never makes the claim that it is our ONLY or even our finhal Authority the way it does about the Church.

Jesus was ecplicit in Matt. 18 that if an unruly brother won't listen to the CHURCH - that they should be excommunicated.
Paul also reccomended this (1 Cor. 5:1-13).

Jesus wont listen to any of us

But we better listen to him.

You want to listen to men, feel free.

Like I said. Eternity is to long for me to place mine in the hands of sinful men

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Game.
Set.
MATCH.

No pride at all here

 

[Eternally Grateful]

EG,

I believe 'my church got it right' because I have studied my Christian history. That history has led me to The Church.

If my church didn't get it right then which one did????

Curious Mary

The jews in Jesus day thought they got it right,
Because they studied history

Study the Bible. History has been proven for thousands of years to not be a good indicator of who is right. The victor is the one who writes history. So history is going to support your view.

It does not mean it is the right view.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Tell me by the spirit what is it that Christ commanded his apostles in matt 28:20?

Do you want me to do that blindfolded or unblindfolded?

 

[Enoch111]

History has been proven for thousands of years to not be a good indicator of who is right.

Correct. History is primarily about wars, and the victors wrote history. And most of the wars had no benefit to anyone (other than a handful of tyrants).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Correct. History is primarily about wars, and the victors wrote history. And most of the wars had no benefit to anyone (other than a handful of tyrants).

Which goes to my point. Rome were the victors. And they MADE the Catholic Church the church of the state. So they and that church WROTE the history of the church (and destroyed any documents, books or writings that THEY considered as heresy, and improsoned, or killed people the considered heretics.)

 

[Illuminator]

No pride at all here

You are dodging the post with a five word snippet. Here it is again.

First of all - you're the FIRST Protestant that I've ever conversed with that didn't say, "The Bible". But thenm you;re a "Lone Ranger" believer.- something that is condemned by Scripture (Heb. 10:25).

Secondly - when Jesus gave Supreme Authority to His Church - He DIDN'T give it to EVERY individual. This is evidence by the favt that in ALL of the verses pertaining to this Authority - He is ONLY speaking to His inner circlke (Matt. 16:19-10. Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

Here's a little hermeneutical rule sorry for the big word):
When Jesus was speaking to and instructing the crowds - He was instructing ALL.
When He instructed His inner circle - He was speaking to and instructing the LEADERS of His Church.

Here is a perfect example of the Authority of the Priesthood:
John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. AS THE FATHER HAS SENT ME, so I send YOU.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”

Tell me - WHAT did the Father send the Son to do?
Anwser: To bring about the FORGIVENESS OF SIN.

This is why Paul states clearly:
2 Cor. 5:18-20:
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given US the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to US the message of reconciliation. So WE are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through US. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states, “Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence of Christ”

In the Greek - the word "Presence" is "Prosopne", which means "PERSON".
Paul and the other priests were FORGIVING sins in the PERSON of Christ. On Latin, this is referred to as "IN PERSONA CRISTI".

Try dealing with the content of the post instead of firing off an emotional reaction.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are dodging the post with a five word snippet. Here it is again.

First of all - you're the FIRST Protestant that I've ever conversed with that didn't say, "The Bible". But thenm you;re a "Lone Ranger" believer.- something that is condemned by Scripture (Heb. 10:25).

Secondly - when Jesus gave Supreme Authority to His Church - He DIDN'T give it to EVERY individual. This is evidence by the favt that in ALL of the verses pertaining to this Authority - He is ONLY speaking to His inner circlke (Matt. 16:19-10. Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

Here's a little hermeneutical rule sorry for the big word):
When Jesus was speaking to and instructing the crowds - He was instructing ALL.
When He instructed His inner circle - He was speaking to and instructing the LEADERS of His Church.

Here is a perfect example of the Authority of the Priesthood:
John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. AS THE FATHER HAS SENT ME, so I send YOU.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”

Tell me - WHAT did the Father send the Son to do?
Anwser: To bring about the FORGIVENESS OF SIN.

This is why Paul states clearly:
2 Cor. 5:18-20:
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given US the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to US the message of reconciliation. So WE are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through US. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states, “Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence of Christ”

In the Greek - the word "Presence" is "Prosopne", which means "PERSON".
Paul and the other priests were FORGIVING sins in the PERSON of Christ. On Latin, this is referred to as "IN PERSONA CRISTI".

Try dealing with the content of the post instead of firing off an emotional reaction.

Yawn.

I am not a Protestant, I am a bible believing born again, child of God. And you can not take that from me.

If you would stop defending your church and being so angry by saying people who disagree with you protest you. You may be able to find some of that peace as well.

The word has continued inspite of the fact the romans and the church they called by their name destroyed any practical evidence of the real church, and imprisoned or killed any one they deemed to be a heretic for well over 1000 years.

The reformation happened because Rome’s power died. Not because people all of a sudden decided that we needed change.

You want to listen to men and history. Feel free. The jews did that, and by it crucified their own messiah.

Forgive me if i do not want to make the same mistake by thinking that satan did nt do the same thing to the church that he did with the jews.

In Christ’s day, the true believers were not large. It had no power. It was prety much hidden, Because the church of power was the jewish church (ekklesia or gathering) which considered all true believers outcasts, heathen haters of God.

In fact, throughout human history we can say the same thing, with the exception of after the flood where prety much everyone was saved, But look how quickly the true believers again became the minority.

 

[BreadOfLife]

↓↓↓
So much for your accusation of being a lone ranger, lol.

Soooo - you go to church with all of these people?
Where do you attend your Sunday services?
Whuch denomination or faith tradition are you affiliated with?
Do you have a Pastor?