Kinda hard to argue with that but I suppose someone will find a way.
Much love!
Secure Eternal Salvation
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Much love!
Another wonderful passage! Somehow we need to understand the warning passages in light of ones such as these. These warning become misconstrued, introducing doubt where it doesn't belong, moving us from Spirit to flesh, attempting to make it all happen for ourselves. And in that way lies failure.
I give unto them eternal life, and they shall not perish. Believe, and receive!
:)
Much love!
I'd sooner call this a spiritual reality and a temporal reality. We are recreated righteous and holy, and that's what we are, in the celetial realm. While in the material realm, we still function through our bodies, which are corrupted by sin.
And so the pruning and discipling is how God is training us to live the new way, even though there seems such a pull to live the old way.
Much love!
Pythagorean12
Active Member
QUOTE="BreadOfLife, post: 1160548, member: 7345"]Wrong.
Ignoring the truth doesn't make it ANY less true . . .
In post #8 - I gave you ample Scriptural evidence to the contrary - which you completely ignored in favor of your man-made, 16th century invention. Until YOU can offer a Scriptural refutation of these verses - your entire argument circles the drain.
Furthermore, in virtually EVERY instance - verses regarding salvation are CONDITIONAL on the faith and the endurance of that faith of the believer.[/QUOTE]
Oh my, there are two.
Please provide book, chapter, verse, where Jesus tells us those who are sealed by the holy spirit will be unsealed under certain conditions, or when/if certain conditions are not met.
Thanks.
Ignoring the truth doesn't make it ANY less true . . .
In post #8 - I gave you ample Scriptural evidence to the contrary - which you completely ignored in favor of your man-made, 16th century invention. Until YOU can offer a Scriptural refutation of these verses - your entire argument circles the drain.
Furthermore, in virtually EVERY instance - verses regarding salvation are CONDITIONAL on the faith and the endurance of that faith of the believer.[/QUOTE]
Oh my, there are two.
Please provide book, chapter, verse, where Jesus tells us those who are sealed by the holy spirit will be unsealed under certain conditions, or when/if certain conditions are not met.
Thanks.
BreadOfLife
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Your position of FULL of hole . . .
First of all – you present a couple of verses that speak to those who “believe” in Christ being saved 0- completely ignoring the CONDITION that Christ himself placed on this:
Matt. 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ONLY the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
The verses I presented are ALL about salvation and how it CAN be lost by our own doing.
As I stated before – just ignoring those verses and blowing them off as “irrelevant” doesn’t make them ANY less true. For every verse you present – I can and have presented a verse that gives CONDITIONS for salvation.
As to your nonsense about living in “two truths – positional and experiential” – BOTH Rom. 11:22 and Heb.10:26-27 warn BORN AGAIN Christians who have an Epignosis (full, experiential knowledge) of Christ falling back into sin and LOSING their security – yet YOU reject this truth.
Here is a list of PROTESTANT linguistic and Scripture scholars on the word “Epignosis” and its ramifications. . .
Richard Chenevix Trench
“In comparing epignosis with gnosis, the “epi” must be regarded as an intensive use of a preposition that gives the compound word a greater strength than the simple word alone possesses” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).
Quoting Culverwell, he writes, “Epignosis and gnosis differ. Epignosis is the complete comprehension after the first knowledge (gnosin) of a matter. It is bringing me better acquainted with a thing I knew before; a more exact viewing of an object that I saw before afar off. That little portion of knowledge which we had here shall be much improved, our eye shall be raised to see the things more strongly and clearly” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).
He goes on to say on the same page, “All Paul’s uses of epignosis justify and bear out this distinction. This same intensive use of epignosis is confirmed by similar passages in the New Testament and in the Septuagint. It also was recognized by the Greek fathers. Thus Chrysostom stated: ‘You knew (egnote), but it is necessary to know thoroughly (epignonai).”
J.B. Lightfoot
“The compound epignosis is an advance upon gnosis, denoting a larger and more thorough knowledge...Hence also epignosis is used especially of the knowledge of God and of Christ, as being the perfection of knowledge” (St. Paul’s Epistles to the Colossians and Philemon, page 138).
Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words
“epignosis, akin to A, No. 3, denotes "exact or full knowledge, discernment, recognition,"
The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon (page 237):
1. Precise and correct knowledge
2. Knowledge of things ethical and divine
3. Of God, especially knowledge of His holy will and of the blessings which He has bestowed and constantly bestows on men through Christ
4. Of Christ, i.e., the true knowledge of Christ’s nature, dignity, benefits
5. Of God and Christ, i.e., to keep the knowledge of the one true God which has illumined the soul
Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 2, page 25:
1. Knowledge as recognition of the will of God that is effective in the conduct of the one who knows God
2. Christian faith
BreadOfLife
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Rpm. 10:9, KJV
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Matt. 7:21, KJV
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Sounds pretty CLEAR to me . . .
Here's another one:
John 15:1-6
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. IF A MAN REMAINS IN ME and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
There you go.
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Lifelong_sinner
Well-Known Member
Rpm. 10:9, KJV
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Matt. 7:21, KJV
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Sounds pretty CLEAR to me . . .
Here's another one:
John 15:1-6
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. IF A MAN REMAINS IN ME and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
There you go.[/QUOTE]
clearly you dont understand what a false convert is.
Rom 10:9 Thou shall be saved ?
Many think it means that they are Saved ? Saved from that point on. No ! They are not Saved at that point but are in the process of being saved ? Well if they keep on track with saying and have faith, then the day may come that you may be truly born again.
I would say that when I was only a water baptised Christian with faith in Jesus Christ but I could not as the Bible points out, eat meat, but only milk, I was putting my faith in people who taught me about the Bible and I had faith in them.
But when I was born again, then I knew Jesus Christ personal relationship with him. now that's a big difference !
It is only when one is truly born again that you can not be snatched out of his hand, because you are truly his Israel, that means that you serve Jesus Christ and are of the Kingdom of God and you do reject this world as Jesus pointed out.
Now in the Bible only two men were mentioned as being an Israel. Jacob by an Angel and Nathaniel by Jesus Christ. now they were worthy of the fact, for a reason. if only Christians truly knew why they would understand, but most do not have a clue, because the Priest will not bring such up ! and why is that ! well the churches are more interested in serving their Church and the church is a Business first and foremost in fact sadly.
If one ponders why the Churches have failed, it's because they did not have Christ Jesus leading the way in their lives.
The Churches have been failing for many years and proof is in the pudding, where are the numbers ?
Jesus Christ never fails ! but people do all through history when they turn their backs on God, there is 4000 years of that history and never once did works of man cut the mustard but lead to untold misery and hopelessness. not to mention that's were the World is heading nowadays, as the Deceptions and Delusions of this world are greater now than ever.
Many think it means that they are Saved ? Saved from that point on. No ! They are not Saved at that point but are in the process of being saved ? Well if they keep on track with saying and have faith, then the day may come that you may be truly born again.
I would say that when I was only a water baptised Christian with faith in Jesus Christ but I could not as the Bible points out, eat meat, but only milk, I was putting my faith in people who taught me about the Bible and I had faith in them.
But when I was born again, then I knew Jesus Christ personal relationship with him. now that's a big difference !
It is only when one is truly born again that you can not be snatched out of his hand, because you are truly his Israel, that means that you serve Jesus Christ and are of the Kingdom of God and you do reject this world as Jesus pointed out.
Now in the Bible only two men were mentioned as being an Israel. Jacob by an Angel and Nathaniel by Jesus Christ. now they were worthy of the fact, for a reason. if only Christians truly knew why they would understand, but most do not have a clue, because the Priest will not bring such up ! and why is that ! well the churches are more interested in serving their Church and the church is a Business first and foremost in fact sadly.
If one ponders why the Churches have failed, it's because they did not have Christ Jesus leading the way in their lives.
The Churches have been failing for many years and proof is in the pudding, where are the numbers ?
Jesus Christ never fails ! but people do all through history when they turn their backs on God, there is 4000 years of that history and never once did works of man cut the mustard but lead to untold misery and hopelessness. not to mention that's were the World is heading nowadays, as the Deceptions and Delusions of this world are greater now than ever.
Pythagorean12
Active Member
Rpm. 10:9, KJV
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Matt. 7:21, KJV
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Sounds pretty CLEAR to me . . .
Here's another one:
John 15:1-6
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. IF A MAN REMAINS IN ME and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
There you go.[/QUOTE]
No.
Here you go
Romans 11:29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
Acts 2:38-39 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”
2 Corinthians 1:22
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
No, it's not that severe of a contention, lol.
Thinking that one can stop believing is not damnable.
The Bible tells us to keep believing.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Salvation is not lost by sinning.
Salvation is lost by ceasing to trust in Christ.
Sinning will surely be the result of such a decision, but it is the unbelief itself that separates one from Christ. Like when the Galatians became severed from Christ for no longer believing that justification is exclusively by faith apart from works:
"You who are trying to be justified by the law have been severed from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." Galatians 5:4
BreadOfLife
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And clearly, YOU don't understand Biblical language.
Allow me to educate you - again.
As I showed you before and proved to you using Protestant scholarship back in post #25 - you cannot have an "Epihnosis" of Christ and be a "false convert".
Epignosis is defined as a full, experiential and relational knowledge - not unlike that of a spouse.
The usual words for "knowledge" (oida or gnosis) are NOT used here in Rom. 11:22 and Heb. 10:26-27.
THESE are the people that Jesus is talking about in John 15:1-6.
OSAS is a false, man-made doctrine that employs a deceptive manipulation of Scripture. Unfortunately for those of you who adhere to this nonsense - there are plenty of us who understand what the Scriptures actually say . . .
BreadOfLife
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And now, we're back to post #8, where I laud out a Scriptural refutation of this man-made OSAS nonsense - and which YOU completely ignored (Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).
As I keep telling you - ignoring the truth doesn't make it "go away".
And these verses show CONDITIONS for salvation that require our cooperation and endurance of faith.
2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Matt. 24:13
"He who endures to the end will be saved"
Pythagorean12
Active Member
Matthew 24 is an assurance for the indwelt elect saints. That no matter the trials and travails, God's got our back. Even if this world martyrs us, we are at the end of this journey, eternally sealed and saved.
Endures, being the operative word.
If it was meant as your church teaches, it would have been a different application.
Like, remains faithful, etc...
It doesn't say that because God said it all in his good news message.
Eternal Salvation.
God is not a man that he should lie.
Salvation , Faith, are a free irrevocable gift by God's grace.
Pythagorean12
Active Member
A friend awhile back called OSAS, Once Sealed Always Sealed. And yes, it is biblical.
And the doubt about that is of Satan, the enemy if truth
The Romans church denies OSAS because their members are to have faith in the church for their salvation.
I ask my Catholic friends, would you say you're Christian?
Each one answered , no, I'm Catholic.
Very disturbing if you think about it.
Truth. One only needs to read Revelations chapters 2 and 3 to see God's message to the Churches. OSAS falls apart.
Yes it is.
Knowing the certainty of our salvation is the faith that leads us to live the right life, and you would take that from people.
And to offer in it's place, "You'd better keep performing!"
So yes, it's a serious contention.
And of those who attack the pure faith of God's children . . . well, I don't think it's going to be pretty.
Much love!
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Everybody who believes in their heart and confesses with their mouth is saved.
The question is, are they going to remain saved to the day they die.
That is where the disagreement is.
I mean, for us Protestants. Because I understand that Catholics do not think that faith without reward of works is sufficient to make a person righteous, as it did for Abraham, our example of justification. They insist that faith plus the performance of work, particularly baptism and a Passover observance, is what makes you righteous in God's sight.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
The argument in this discussion is the certainty of God's salvation is what is to lead you to continued believing. That's what the Bible says.
"14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we profess." Hebrews 4:14
If you want to believe that continued believing is a given, I'm fine with that. But don't go saying we don't have to continue to believe in order to be saved.
