Colossians 1:16 (ESV)
[sup]16 [/sup]For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Scriptural proof that Jesus was NOT "fully God"
- Thread starter John Zain
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Colossians 1:16 (ESV)
[sup]16 [/sup]For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
I did not ask anyone to look into modern Judaism. I ask people to consider ancient Judaism. Gentiles are the wild olive branch. They don't support the roots. The roots should support them.
I made no derogatory remarks about neither God, nor His Spirit, nor about the Son of God.
Regarding Christianity I simply presented the results of my investigation. You may dislike it, but my comments were not derogatory. You can find the very same information in quality academic books written about this subject.
And how come you have a double standard and don't rebuke those so-called "born-again" Christians who are incapable of intelligent conversation, cannot control their language and continually telling others they are going to hell?
I am NOT a Judaic Jew. I follow the Messiah who was born as the seed of David "according to the flesh" and "designated son of God by the Spirit of adoption". Others believe Jesus was the son of God "according to the flesh" and the "designated son of David according to the spirit of adoption".
Of course not for you!
EZE 12:1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people.
================================================================================================
JN 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
MT 2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem 2 and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."
MT 27:11 Meanwhile Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?"
"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.
PHP 2:6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
PHP 2:7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
PHP 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death--
even death on a cross!
PHP 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
PHP 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
PHP 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
This is just some of the verses of scriptures that prove Jesus is equal with God. There is only ONE God! God the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are ONE! There are not Three Gods or separate Entities they are all the SAME God!
If you understood Hebrew teaching of God and His Diety you would pick up on how Jesus offended the Pharisees and other religious Jews of His time by claiming to be God. In the End Jesus was crucified because He was claiming to be God.
It would be handy if you actually checked the correct rendering.
"for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him." (NRSV)
"In him" is defined here as "through him and for him". It simply means God did His creative work with Adam (and through him the Second Adam) in mind, and for him to rule over.
Which doesn't change it whatsoever.
Colossians 1:16 (GW)
[sup]16 [/sup]He created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible. Whether they are kings or lords, rulers or powers— everything has been created through him and for him.
Colossians 1:16 (NASB)
[sup]16 [/sup]For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Colossians 1:16 (NIV)
[sup]16 [/sup]For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Colossians 1:16 (MaceNT)
[sup]16 [/sup]for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are on earth, both visible and invisible, the thrones, and the sovereigntys, the principalitys, and the powers: all were created by him, and for him: he is before all things,
Colossians 1:16 (ESV)
[sup]16 [/sup]For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Colossians 1:16 (Darby)
[sup]16 [/sup]because by him were created all things, the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or principalities, or authorities: all things have been created by him and for him.
Colossians 1:16 (TLB)
[sup]16 [/sup]Christ himself is the Creator who made everything in heaven and earth, the things we can see and the things we can’t; the spirit world with its kings and kingdoms, its rulers and authorities; all were made by Christ for his own use and glory.
Hi belanto"s
The bible is written by men inspired by God...
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, [2 Timothy 3:16]
The Judaic Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah...[1 John 4:15] [1John 2:21-23]
There appears to be a defining difference between your belief and those you have termed "others" who believe that Jesus is was the Son of God
" Who is this Messiah that you follow???
The bible says that every time the Torah is read a veil lies over the hearts of the listeners and when they turn to the Lord, the veil is removed and they can be saved.
2 Corinthians 3
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Why would any born-again believer want to come under that kind of bondage, when Gentile believers have been saved by grace through faith?..
Blessings!!!
The bible is written by men inspired by God...
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, [2 Timothy 3:16]
The Judaic Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah...[1 John 4:15] [1John 2:21-23]
There appears to be a defining difference between your belief and those you have termed "others" who believe that Jesus is was the Son of God
" Who is this Messiah that you follow???
The bible says that every time the Torah is read a veil lies over the hearts of the listeners and when they turn to the Lord, the veil is removed and they can be saved.
2 Corinthians 3
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Why would any born-again believer want to come under that kind of bondage, when Gentile believers have been saved by grace through faith?..
Blessings!!!
These translations are theologically biased and incorrect.
16 ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα, εἴτε θρόνοι εἴτε κυριότητες εἴτε ἀρχαὶ εἴτε ἐξουσίαι· τὰ πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται·
ἐν = "in", NOT "by"
1. Inspiration - true. Evangelicals add that they are error free in the originals, which we don't have.
2. Son of God - agree. God the Son - disagree. I follow the former.
3. Veil and Torah. Don't forget the time it was said. By the first century, because of the Roman occupation, the religious leadership developed a legalistic doctrine, whereby the laws of the priesthood was forced upon the common people and observing the Torah became the means of salvation (deliverance from oppression)
Luke 1:
68 “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of David His servant—
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from of old—
71 Salvation FROM OUR ENEMIES,
And FROM THE HAND OF ALL WHO HATE US...
Prior to that time Abraham's way of salvation was the doctrine. You loved God and because of it you observed His laws.
4. 2Cor 3 passage - how does that disprove my statement that it is impossible to understand the NT without understanding ancient Judaism? If you do not understand how the authors of the scriptures wrote, you don't stand the chance to correctly interpret the bible.
And what is this veil about? Have you ever heard about the PaRDeS? Google for 'zworld pardes' to read about it and you will recognise it is extensively employed in the NT. The Jew of the day expected literal fulfilment of prophecies, but Jesus fulfilled Remez, Drash and Sod levels of meanings of writings of prophets (he did this or that in order that what the prophet said might be fulfilled). Hence it was said that God's plan was hidden from them. The veil is removed when they accept Jesus and recognise how he fulfilled these writings.
5. Born-again - Jesus told Nicodemus he should have known what he was talking about. The concept of "born-again" was nothing new, it existed in Judaism. Christianity made it something totally new.
6. Bondage - I was not asking anyone to come under a legalistic Judaism. But what "faith" meant in the first century is not the same as what it means today. The correct translation is "the just shall live by his faithfulness", and in the Ephesian verse you quoted it means exactly the same - "saved by grace through faith(fulness)". Faithfulness is what repentance produces. And that is how you have faith. Don't confuse it with what Paul calls "works", which is trying to earn God's favour by observing the Torah, but your heart is far from God.
Galations 3
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
[sup]15[/sup] Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. [sup]16[/sup] Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,”who is Christ. [sup]17[/sup] And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ,[sup][j][/sup] that it should make the promise of no effect. [sup]18[/sup] For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
The bible is written by men, inspired by God....[2 Timothy 3:16]
The same God who sent us [believers] the helper, the Holy Spirit [John 14:15-18, 26] We do not need to understand Judaism to correctly interpret the bible...
1 John 2
24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.
Some scholars believe that the veil that lies over the hearts of the Jews when the Torah is read...is unbelief, others believe that it was spiritual blindness to the truth which is Jesus the coming [and is come] Messiah.
Judaic Jews believe that being born again - mean't turning from idols and idolatry to Judaism, observing Biblical Feasts and Festivals and observing the sabbath.
That is not what Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about...[John 3:1-21]
You do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, that is why you say that...
1 John 2:23
Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
G4102 pistis - faith
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
The word "works" Paul speaks about in Romans 10, is action accompanying faith, not works by earning something that has been freely given....James says...
James 2
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works [G2041].” Show me your faith without your works [G2041], and I will show you my faith by my works [G2041]. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works [G2041] is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works [G2041] when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works[G2041] and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
G2041 ergon
From ergō (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.
The word "works" used in this verse is an action. This action is accompanied by faith. If even the demons believe and shudder...then belief is not enough without the action that accompanies it...
When we first believed the word that was given to us about Jesus, we acted upon that belief by confessing that he truly is who he says he is [our Lord and savior...and that God had raised him from the dead] bible says that, by believing [faith] and acting upon that faith [works] we shall be saved.
This verse is corresponds with Romans 10 and speaks to all believers....
Romans 10
. 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth [acting upon your belief] the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart [faith] that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness [faith], and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation [acting upon your belief]. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
Christian believers do not need to study those who are under the Law to find out about the truth of the word...They just need to read the word for themselves and the Holy Spirit will teach them the truth...:)
Shalom!
Wow! That's a long post. I will retire by the time I answer all these :-)
1. Here is a little note written by Shmuel Playfair:
_______________
Many Christians teach that the "followers of Judaism" preach "salvation by works" (without relying on God's grace). Here is a story to illustrate what Jews really believe regarding the relationship between God's grace and our good works:
"The Winter Coat"
In the 18th century, Rabbi Yaakov Ben Z'ev Kranz, known as the "Maggid"(preacher) of Dubno used to tell this story: A poor man desperately needed a winter coat. He went to a major avenue and stood on a street corner begging for days until he had collected enough money. At the coat store he took the shopkeeper aside and explained how poor he was. He tried his best to convince the shopkeeper to give him a coat free of charge. The store owner took pity on him and gave him the coat. To the shopkeeper's surprise, the poor man handed him a handful of money -- all the money he had collected. After the poor man left the store, his daughter said to him, "Father, why did you ask for the coat for free, if you meant to pay?" The poor man said, "I was afraid I still wouldn't have enough. As long as I knew the shopkeeper was kind enough to give me the coat for nothing, I knew any money I could give him would be acceptable." The "Maggid" said: This is why we do not approach G-d on the Day of Judgement announcing our good deeds -- for who has done enough good deeds to pay for all the mercy that G-d has already shown us? We can offer nothing, but we can hope and pray for His charity (Hesed = grace) and that He will give us His blessings for nothing. Only then do we offer him what little we have, and hope that it will be acceptable to Him.
_______________
Hope this clarifies a few things.
2. Let's say, there is an old Hungarian writing set sometime in the last century. Someone translates it into English and you read it. It will make a lot of sense to you, but you forget that your understanding of it is influenced by your own modern Angle-Saxon culture. You read that book through the glasses of your culture. And it will make a lot of sense.
However, if you want to truly understand it, you need to understand how Hungarians think, but beyond that you need to also understand the culture of the day it was written about. You will not get the full value of the book without it. First of all, you read a translation, and translations are always a trade-off. Nuances of words get lost. It is utterly impossible to translate Hungarian writings into English without loosing a lot of its meaning. So there is only one way to truly enjoy Hungarian literature, and that is, by learning the language.
You are talking about the Spirit enlightening you, but you forget the eschatology. The Spirit belongs to the immediate time before the Kingdom. Read Peter's message on the day of Pentecost. And you have the little flames sitting on the head of the disciples... fire from heaven... everyone is frightened... they want to be saved. He quotes Joel and says,
Acts 2
16 No, this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel:
17 ‘In the last days it will be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.
18 Even upon my slaves, both men and women, in those days I will pour out my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will show portents in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and smoky mist.
20 The sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the coming of the Lord’s great and glorious day.
21 Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.’
Once Jerusalem was destroyed and the Kingdom didn't come, the Spirit was no longer given. It belongs to a very specific time period shortly before the Kingdom. So no, the Spirit will not help you to understand these Jewish writings by reading English translations that are often theologically biased. You need to put in hard work to understand the scriptures as the writers intended it.
That verse about calling on the name of the Lord is also misused. It is clear from Joel what you had to be saved from. The wrath of God that was to come upon the world. Not from hell.
3. Now onto Jacob (I don't understand why English bibles translate his name as James). Since you don't understand the Torah let me explain a few things. The Torah is not "law", but "instruction". It is about how to live right. It has precepts about what not to do, and if you followed them you were not bad. But to be good you had to also follow those instructions that were positive. These are about doing charity. Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give drink to the thirsty, etc. These are the good works that Jacob is talking about.
Your life of faith is dead without the good works because you cannot be called faithful while ignoring the positive commands of the Torah.
4. Denying the son... denying the Father...
In what way do you deny them? Why do you think the implication is that one must accept the deity of Jesus?
If Caesar sent his emissary with full authority to a country, they had a choice. They either rejected him, and thereby insulted Caesar, or complied. Accepting his emissary meant accepting Caesar, while rejecting his emissary meant rejecting Caesar. The same is true in regards to the verse you quoted.
5. Faith of Abraham... Abraham believed God. The Hebrew term "believed" is the same as putting down the poles into the ground when you setup the tent. It carries the meaning that he was firm in God, unwavering. That means something for your life, for that tent had to stand. Yet, Abraham's story shows how to get into the covenant. The Torah shows you how to conduct yourself in it.
Hope this helps :-)
I am not Jewish, but....
Shalom
JN 10:25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."
JN 10:31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
JN 10:33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
ZEC 12:10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.
ZEC 14:3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
ZEC 14:6 On that day there will be no light, no cold or frost. 7 It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime--a day known to the LORD. When evening comes, there will be light.
ZEC 14:8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea and half to the western sea, in summer and in winter.
ZEC 14:9 The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.
And who is this ONE that the Jews had pierced and weep for? Why Jesus who was hung on a Cross and pierced by a spear. And whose name will be the ONLY Name? Why Jesus Christ will be the Name above all Names.
So the one they rejected and wanted to stone for blasphemy. The one who died for calling Himself "KING of the Jews" will become their King! That is Jesus but the Jews cannot see that yet! Their eyes are still spiritually blind to seeing that the Messiah has already come. First to be the Sacrificial Lamb to take away the Sins of the World and the Second time he will come with His army to fight and save His people and free up the city of Jerusalem.
RO 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.
RO 11:7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8 as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day."
RO 11:9 And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
RO 11:10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."
RO 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
RO 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
RO 11:27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
RO 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
JN 10:31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
JN 10:33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
ZEC 12:10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.
ZEC 14:3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
ZEC 14:6 On that day there will be no light, no cold or frost. 7 It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime--a day known to the LORD. When evening comes, there will be light.
ZEC 14:8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea and half to the western sea, in summer and in winter.
ZEC 14:9 The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.
And who is this ONE that the Jews had pierced and weep for? Why Jesus who was hung on a Cross and pierced by a spear. And whose name will be the ONLY Name? Why Jesus Christ will be the Name above all Names.
So the one they rejected and wanted to stone for blasphemy. The one who died for calling Himself "KING of the Jews" will become their King! That is Jesus but the Jews cannot see that yet! Their eyes are still spiritually blind to seeing that the Messiah has already come. First to be the Sacrificial Lamb to take away the Sins of the World and the Second time he will come with His army to fight and save His people and free up the city of Jerusalem.
RO 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.
RO 11:7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8 as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day."
RO 11:9 And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
RO 11:10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."
RO 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
RO 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
RO 11:27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
RO 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
John 10:33 - the Jews accuse Jesus that he made himself God. Is this a theological statement? Were they right? Why don't we ask Jesus about it, for he replies to them. Not surprisingly you stopped quoting the passage before Jesus' reply.
John 10:
34 Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If those to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’ —and the scripture cannot be annulled— 36 can you say that the one whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, ‘I am the son of God’?
Ops! The term "god" can refer to human superiors, as it is applied to Moses, the judges of Israel and even to Jewish kings. The term simply means "power". So Jesus is correcting them and says that not only that he did not even claim to be "god" (human superior), he simply claimed to be the "son of God" (a holy man of God).
For the rest of your quotes you need to read about the concept of the "shaliach", or "intermediary". Do your own homework, I will not answer every single bible verse.
Yes it does...:)
You are not a Christian...you are a Torah observer/keeper and the Holy Spirit cannot help you understand the word of God because you do not have the Holy Spirit abiding in you.
Ephesians 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Hebrews 9
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
I will be praying for you..
Shalom!
You are not a Christian...you are a Torah observer/keeper and the Holy Spirit cannot help you understand the word of God because you do not have the Holy Spirit abiding in you.
Ephesians 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Hebrews 9
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
I will be praying for you..
Shalom!
No. I am not a Jew. I am a Gentile.
Now you need to explain - according to your theology - how is it that I don't have the Spirit. Because I am sure you believe all "born-again" believers receive it forever.
So, I once was one of these "born-again" believers - according to Evangelical definition. About ten years, a theological degree and full time ministry later I examined Christian theology and I found that it was incorrect.
According to your belief, was the Spirit taken away from me then? Shouldn't have happened. It is given forever, and you can never be lost. Ops!
But my eschatology is different and I am convinced that the Spirit belongs to the end times, that is what Joel said. God would pour out in the last days, before the terrible day of the LORD. The Spirit was never meant to be given any other time. You need to ignore Joel to maintain the belief that it was meant to be given in every age.
I am debating with a Preterist who believes that the end times occurred in 70AD and the Kingdom is spiritual. His argument makes sense, I must consider it, though I am not sure how he interprets literal Messianic prophecies. I need to see it. He also contends that the Spirit was only given in a specific period of time.
Hi belantos!
John 16:7-15
[sup]7[/sup] Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. [sup]8[/sup] And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: [sup]9[/sup] of sin, because they do not believe in Me; [sup]10[/sup] of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; [sup]11[/sup] of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
[sup]12[/sup] “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. [sup]13[/sup] However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. [sup]14[/sup] He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. [sup]15[/sup] All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you
John 7:39
But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Work it out for yourself...:)
Based on whose standard??? :huh:
Please consider...if end times occurred in 70AD, then who are we ? The Kingdom has always been a Spiritual Kingdom because God is Spirit John 14:23-25 and "flesh and blood cannot enter it ...1 Corinthians 15:49-50 until this flesh is swallowed up by life 2 Corinthians 5:4
Blessings!!!
John 16:7-15
[sup]7[/sup] Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. [sup]8[/sup] And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: [sup]9[/sup] of sin, because they do not believe in Me; [sup]10[/sup] of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; [sup]11[/sup] of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
[sup]12[/sup] “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. [sup]13[/sup] However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. [sup]14[/sup] He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. [sup]15[/sup] All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you
John 7:39
But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Work it out for yourself...:)
Based on whose standard??? :huh:
Then you better tell that to the Holy Spirit who dwells in every one of his believers today, that he is here too early and must come back later...Lol!
Please consider...if end times occurred in 70AD, then who are we ? The Kingdom has always been a Spiritual Kingdom because God is Spirit John 14:23-25 and "flesh and blood cannot enter it ...1 Corinthians 15:49-50 until this flesh is swallowed up by life 2 Corinthians 5:4
Blessings!!!
You need to interpret John's statements in the light of Joel. The Spirit was only given in the last days before Jerusalem fell. It was not given after that time. It belongs to that time alone. Don't deceive yourself.
By what standard? First of all, it is well known to evangelical theologians that the Tanakh often employs figurative language. Trees clap their hands, wisdom builds a house and has children, etc. The very same language is used of the Spirit of God throughout the bible. Bummer! The Spirit of God is not a person, it is only personified. I only employed on the Spirit the methods proposed by trinitarian theologians. The deity of Jesus is a bit harder to disprove because it requires that you read all those "proof" passages in context.
Besides, you have a vast arsenal of other knowledge shored up by trinitarian theologians, you only need to apply them. When I did this test I used nothing but trinitarian resources, I just applied them without bias.
Oh, and the Spirit doesn't dwell in anyone today. There would be evidence, for example, unity of doctrine. However, Christian theology is a jungle. You cannot find two commentaries that agree. Christianity is more splintered than any other religions, yet, they claim they all have the Spirit.
Sadly, they don't. They have religious feelings and they confuse it with the Spirit.
There are various opinions about the Kingdom. The Preterists believe it is spiritual. I believe it is spiritual for now, but it will be physical one day. Gentiles will visit Jerusalem and observe the feasts, the law will go forth from Jerusalem, universal peace and prosperity, longevity of life restored, etc, none of which have been fulfilled.
And the renewed covenant of Jeremiah is only for the Jews, not for Gentiles. Jesus' covenant goes back to an earlier promise made to Abraham, that he will be the father of many nations.
Jesus is the Son of God Emmanuel (God with us)
I would say that Jesus was sent to save us ( humans only) not trees ect.
The big fella God is all encompassing some thing that we can not really totally fathom in depth and to have a try is just only that so we have to come to Jesus as he is the one and only way to God and anyone who rejects that is a fool just running around chasing ones tail. and as humans we must come to Christ as he is our Savior.
We have the Father the Son & the Holy Spirit and if you don't comprehend that you are just of with the pixies.
The poor miserable Jews are or were to hard hearted to see it but the true Israelites could comprehend Jesus Christ as they did build his Church.
The problem is with worldly people just running around pushing their poor filthy trash above the Holy Spirit and i am sorry to say their rubbish will all in vain.
Jesus Christ is the Light of the world and the truth and noting but the truth is in him.
Jesus was fully God, but the only way it can be truly imparted to humans is as being the Son. God is so great! as that we can become in the Spirit.
I would say that Jesus was sent to save us ( humans only) not trees ect.
The big fella God is all encompassing some thing that we can not really totally fathom in depth and to have a try is just only that so we have to come to Jesus as he is the one and only way to God and anyone who rejects that is a fool just running around chasing ones tail. and as humans we must come to Christ as he is our Savior.
We have the Father the Son & the Holy Spirit and if you don't comprehend that you are just of with the pixies.
The poor miserable Jews are or were to hard hearted to see it but the true Israelites could comprehend Jesus Christ as they did build his Church.
The problem is with worldly people just running around pushing their poor filthy trash above the Holy Spirit and i am sorry to say their rubbish will all in vain.
Jesus Christ is the Light of the world and the truth and noting but the truth is in him.
Jesus was fully God, but the only way it can be truly imparted to humans is as being the Son. God is so great! as that we can become in the Spirit.
The part about only for the Jews is what i see as just full on racist clap trap. like where are the true Jews bro ! how many of them is there, like 6 % of the so called Jews may be from the true race has been a reported figure but the rest are only like having some % of being so.
I have seen some religions push this stuff about the Jews being some how above all the rest when they find out my sir name is Jewish they make such a fuss with you they have done this with my brother trying to get him to swallow it all and i had to drag him out of it's dilution.
Jesus Christ is our only savior end of story.
Replacement Theology. For those who do not know what that is, it is where Christians think the Church which is full of Gentiles has taken over from Israel which was God's Nation. That the Church now has all the promises given orginally to Israel. Some even go as far as to think that no Jew today will ever get saved that their ability to become Christians is zero, because they rejected Jesus and sent Him off to be crucified (because they could not see Jesus was God they crucified him for blasphhemy). So many think that Israel's rejection of the Messiah meant they lost their place with God.
Well how do you explain the Apostles and all the Jews that came to Christ and formed the Early Church and all the Messianic Jews of today?
If you think God has finished with the Jews than you are Ignorant of what is written about their situation and their future. Paul clarifies where the people of Israel stand before God today. Remember the Gospel is for the Jews and NOT JUST for Gentiles.
For those who are Saved Don't be conceited Israel is the Tree and you are the ingrafted branches. It is Israel that sustains us as Christians and not all the natural branches have been removed and don't you think God is not restoring Israel back to Himself. God is in the process of restoring Israel the Nation to Himself. Until the full number of the Gentiles comes into salvation they are blinded on purpose for rejecting God as a Nation. There are still individual Jews who come to salvation through Christ Jesus today. However Israel is God's nation and the promises God made to Israel as a Nation the following scriptures tells us are IRREVOCABLE.
After Christ's death both Jews and Gentiles were evangelised. The Gospel is for all who would receive Christ. The Jews were not denied salvation and they still are coming to Christ today.
If you actuall knew and understood the Old Testament you would see the Jews or Hebrews living with Jesus in Jerusalem and living there in peace (no more will the nations surrounding the Jews attack her) and safety, worshiping the Lord.
First God will punish them for their rejection of the Messiah which we are seeing today. However as Paul says in Romans 9, 10 & 11 there is a remnant of Israel that he will restored.
You are already deceived... the Holy Spirit has been around since the beginning of creation [Genesis 1:2] and has appeared in these last days after the death and resurrection of Yeshua HaMashiach. [John 15:20-26]. His purpose is to dwell in believers [John 14:23] [2 Corinthians 6:14-16] and teach truth [1 Corinthians 2:12-16] [John 16:13] to all who believe in Jesus. The seal of the Holy Spirit's presence, is the gaurantee of our redemption [Ephesians 1:13] [Ephesians 4:30] when he comes again [Hebrews 9:27]
1 John 3
[sup]23[/sup] And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
The Spirit of Truth and the Spirit of Error
[sup]24[/sup] Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
So...you you base your understanding on Judaism.....we are not Jewish, we are Christian, Gentile believers. Were the Jewish Chief priests and officers, not the ones who crucified the Lord of Life? [John 19:6-7] [John 19:20-22] Why would anyone want to look for understanding from those who have no understanding....[not yet anyway]
God does not go backward....If sacrifices were re-introduced then Christ died for nothing and they will perish without any hope....:huh:
Shalom!
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