Satan's deception.
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BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
What I texted in post #40 was very clear. God did not want Adam to be disobedient. God said at Genesis 2:16-17 "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." so this scripture shows us that God didn't want Adam to be disobedient to this command when he said to Adam, "thou shalt not eat of it." So are you saying that God wanted Adam to disobey God when God said to Adam, thou shalt not eat of it? The only reason man dies is because Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden tree, which they were commanded not to do.
Really?
So post #40 was very clear. That God did not want Adam to be disobedient....
YET... What do we read Barney Bright
Rom 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all....
Let go of your ankles.... Your theological spanking is complete....
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
And yet throughout the scriptures God has never approved of disobedience. So you can try all you want by using Romans 11:32 to say it was God's will or purpose for Adam to be disobedient, but Romans 11:32 isn't saying that. It was God's will his purpose for Adam to live forever on planet earth. God put Adam on planet earth, and told him he could eat from all the trees in the garden except the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God told Adam if he ate from the forbidden tree he would die. So Scripture teaches us that as long as Adam was obedient to the true God an refrained from eating of the forbidden tree he wouldn't die. You're saying it was God's will that Adam be disobedient. If God wanted Adam to be disobedient why was he punished for being disobedient and why has the scriptures always shown that God has never approved of disobedience.
Where have you been living???
ESV Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
Grab your ankles boy.....
NASB Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
NASB Tit 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
Listen to Jesus....
NASB Joh 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
NASB 1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
NASB Rev 17:14 "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."
You don't see... I will show you why....
1Ti 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
You can argue all you want, but you're teaching that God approves of disobedience when the scriptures have always shown that God has never approved of disobedience. So God didn't approve of Adam being disobedient to him when God told him not to eat from the forbidden tree. You can argue til eternity but the scriptures will continue to teach that God has never approved of disobedience
Silly Child...
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Yet... let's deal with Rom 8:20 at another time.....
Time for you to bend over and grab your ankles.... Silly Child.... Get ready for your Theological Spanking.... It's the other Paul that's going to destroy your post and concept....
1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
So Barney Bright... I just showed you and all whom read this thread.... That the Holy Spirit..... AND NOT YOU... Tells us whom will be given the Kingdom...
Thus... your total lack of understanding of ....
Predestination?
NASB Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
Net Eph 1:11 In Christ28 we too have been claimed as God's own possession,29(G280) since we were predestined (G4309) according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will
29 tn Grk "we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words "God's own" have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance: "In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance." See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 226-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue.
Word study
G2820
κληρόω
klēróō; contracted klērṓ, fut. klērṓsō, from klḗros (G2819), a lot. To cast lots, determine by lot, i.e., to determine something, choose someone. In Eph_1:11, it means, "in whom the lot has fallen upon us also, as foreordained thereto . . . to be" (a.t.). The idea expressed here is that Christians have become heirs of God due to the fact that God predestined them according to His purpose. In a manner of speaking, the "lot" fell to believers not by chance but solely because of the gracious and sovereign decision of God- Almighty to select them to be His heirs.
Deriv.: prosklēróō (G4345), to give or assign by lot.
Word study
G4309
proorízō; fut. proorísō, from pró (G4253), before, and horízō (G3724), to determine. To determine or decree beforehand (Act_4:28; Rom_8:29-30; 1Co_2:7; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11). The peace of the Christian Church has been disrupted due to the misunderstanding which surrounds this word. It behooves the Church to consider the divinely intended meaning of this word by carefully examining the critical passages where it is used.
In 1Co_2:7 it has a thing as its obj., namely, the wisdom of God. The purpose was our glory, i.e., our benefits of salvation.
In Act_4:28 the verb is followed by the aor. inf. genésthai (gínomai [G1096], to be, become), to be done. The action of Herod and Pontius Pilate in crucifying Jesus Christ is said to have been predetermined or foreordained by the hand and will of God. This indicates that Christ's mission, especially His death and resurrection, was not ultimately the result of human will but originated in the eternal counsel of God which decreed the event determining all its primary and secondary causes, instruments, agents, and contingencies.
In Rom_8:29-30, predestination is used of God's actions in eternally decreeing both the objects and goal of His plan of salvation. Proorízō has a personal obj., the pl. relative pron. hoús, whom. This relative pron. refers to those previously mentioned as those whom God foreknew (proégnō [G4267]). The translation is, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate." The objects of predestination are those whom He foreknew. Predestination does not involve a predetermined plan only but also includes the individuals for whom the plan is devised. The goal of predestination is expressed in the phrase, "to be conformed to the image of his Son."
In Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11 this same purpose of foreordination is termed adoption. Adoption (huiothesía [G5206]) is the placing into sonship or legal heirship of those who are born of God. According to Eph_1:5 the basis of this prior decree is "the good pleasure of His will." The word rendered "good pleasure" is eudokía (G2107) and means pleasure or satisfaction, that which seems good. Paul is careful to add that it is the good pleasure of God's will, it is what seems good to God-not man. Similarly, in Eph_1:11 foreordination is based upon "the purpose (próthesis [G4286]) of the One who is working all things ([neut. acc. pl.] tá pánta [G3844], an idiom for the entire metaphysical and physical universe) according to the decision of His will" (a.t.). This same thinking is reflected in Rom_8:30 where foreordination is joined successively to foreknowledge. Here it is presented not as a capricious, arbitrary or whimsical exercise of raw will or unreasoned impulse, but as the expression of a deliberate and wise plan which purposes to redeem those undeserving sinners whom God freely favors as the objects of His mercy.
Because it is neither possible nor permissible for us to pry into God's secret counsel, it is not proper to be fixated with determining who the predestined are. Instead, we should contemplate the glories of what they are predestined to, i.e., salvation, adoption, or glory.
Syn.: protássō (G4384), to appoint before; procheirízō (G4400), to appoint beforehand; proetoimázō (G4282), to prepare before.
Silly Child..... It's all summed up here in act 13:48
NASB Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Barney BOY... You have much to learn...
Your Problem Barney... is you do not Believe scripture.... The wages of sin is Death.... You fail to see this... You believe the wages of sin is the greek concept of eternal torment.... Thus whay you fail.... Jesus died on the cross for your sins... Jesus did not burn in eternity for your sins...
I mean is really is that simple...
The other Paul
I mean is really is that simple...
The other Paul
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
You can argue and huff and puff all you want. You can say anything about me all you want. But the true God YHWH never has approved of disobedience. So anyone trying to argue that God planned or it was God's purpose for disobedience to be part of his plan or purpose they are the one's who are wrong. YHWH God has always disapproved of disobedience. So God's purpose or plan regarding creation never included disobedience. If disobedience was part of God's plan or purpose that would mean God wanted Adam to be disobedient when God told him not to eat from the forbidden tree.
I'm not arguing against predestination, I'm arguing against your interpretation of predestination. You want people to think that God chose every individuals choice for them, that God chose before they were even born that they were destined to be eternally destroyed and they had nothing to do with it. Peoples choices matter. God didn't make those choices for them. Whether those people chose to be obedient to God or not it was their choice not God's choice made long ago before they were even born.
God's will or purpose or plan whatever you wish to call it after Adam and Eve sinned is stated right there in Genesis 3:15. This purpose wasn't stated until after Adam and Eve sinned, not before. Anything having to do with predestination would be before Abel not before Adam was in existence. The scriptures teach us that God didn't come up with a plan to save mankind until mankind was in a situation that they needed to be saved. That was after Adam and Eve sinned not before, which is why God stated Genesis 3:15 after they sinned not before they sinned
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Then continue on deceiving yourself and those who listen to you that disobedience God approves of because you say it's Gods will that people are disobedient to him.
Really... Barney?
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
NASB Pro 20:24 Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way?
NET Bible Pro 20:24 The steps of a person73 are ordained by74 the LORD — so how can anyone75 understand his own76 way?
Pro 20:24
73 tn Heb "the steps of a man"; but "man" is the noun גֶּבֶר (gever, in pause), indicating an important, powerful person. BDB 149-50 s.v. suggests it is used of men in their role of defending women and children; if that can be validated, then a translation of "man" would be appropriate here. But the line seems to have a wider, more general application. The "steps" represent (by implied comparison) the course of life (cf. NLT "the road we travel").
74 tn Heb "from the LORD"; NRSV "ordered by the Lord"; NIV "directed by the Lord."
sn To say that one's steps are ordained by the LORD means that one's course of actions, one's whole life, is divinely prepared and sovereignly superintended (e.g., Gen_50:26; Pro_3:6). Ironically, man is not actually in control of his own steps.
75 tn The verse uses an independent nominative absolute to point up the contrast between the mortal and the immortal: "and man, how can he understand his way?" The verb in the sentence would then be classified as a potential imperfect; and the whole question rhetorical. It is affirming that humans cannot understand very much at all about their lives.
76 tn Heb "his way." The referent of the third masculine singular pronoun is unclear, so the word "own" was supplied in the translation to clarify that the referent is the human individual, not the Lord.
Just trying to help...
Paul
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
The Great Potter doesn't arbitrarily determines the eternal destiny of any of us long before we are born, as the Calvinistic teaching of predestination would have it. Not at all! His creatures determine their own destiny by the course of action they take. But the Great Potter can and does, for his own wise, just and loving reasons, choose the time, manner and circumstances for rewarding the righteous and punishing the wicked.
Note how clear this point is made at Jeremiah 18:6-8: “Look! As the clay in the hand of the potter, so you are in my hand, O house of Israel. At any moment that I may speak against a nation and against a kingdom to uproot it and to pull it down and to destroy it, and that nation actually turns back from its badness against which I spoke, I will also feel regret over the calamity that I had thought to execute upon it.”
This shows us that when people are repentant and change their course of sinning against the true God, because God had judged a nation or city to be destroyed because of their sinful course, God shows mercy to that nation or city and decides not to destroy it as he had judged to do. Repentance has to come from a willing heart, someone who loves God enough to change his/her course of sin and exercise faith in him. You can't force anyone to love anybody, you can't even force anyone to love God. So a person who shows true repentance isn't like some robot programmed to repent. People choose to repent choose to love God choose to exercise faith in him.
It wasn't God's will or purpose for Adam to sin. God is and has always been against disobedience. The scriptures show us this Pierac. If you want to disagree with
this, that's your choice, but God didn't want Adam to be disobedient. When God told Adam to not eat from the forbidden tree Adam was perfectly capable of obeying that command, and God doesn't give impossible commands to obey. Obedience is something that God has always required. So people can choose to obey God or not obey God. God of course wants everyone to be obedient, but that has to be every individuals personal choice if they are going to love God enough to exercise faith in him and be obedient.
Satan is the last one to blame compared to my own choices… besides Satan is not even around anymore. Darkness is, and it exist in every human being considering all are spiritually dead or at least start out that way.
Matthew a blanket statement about Satan that is not even true at this present time. World events that are occurring at this present time, show just how wrong your claim is.
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BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
If you don't believe Satan is around anymore then not only are you going against scripture but you're deceiving yourself. Satan will not be thrown into the Abyss where he won't be able to influence or tempt mankind until when Armageddon happens. When this wicked world we're living in is destroyed at Armageddon then Satan will be thrown into the abyss with his angels and for a thousand years not be able to influence or tempt mankind. So Satan and his demons are around today in this wicked world we're living in.
What makes you believe that? The scripture talks about getting rid of the devil. Therefore if it is me whom is believed that it is true, why wouldn’t it be true because of the Bible saying so, Barney bright?
Am I deceiving myself or, am I delusional and deceived by the scripture?
You are more than free to believe that is still going to happen, will love you, even if you disagree with me believing those things have happened already.
Yeah that makes a lot of good sense if the revelation was written for us now today, which it is not.
I don’t agree with that. I believe Satan and his demons have been done away with.
What remains is the darkness of one’s of heart, and also the spiritual influences of the forces here in this world that wanna take people down dark path ways, and not give give recognition towards God at all.
I don’t see people being possessed by demons or the devil still around today, but you may and others may too? And if you do I love you and respect you if you wanna believe they are still around that is between you and God.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
MatthewG said:
You are more than free to believe that is still going to happen, will love you, even if you disagree with me believing those things have happened already.[/QUOTE\]
Since Armageddon hasn't happened yet, Satan hasn't been thrown into the Abyss yet. It's when Satan and his demons have been thrown into the Abyss, which will happen when Armageddon happens that Satan and his demons they will not be able to influence or tempt mankind for a thousand years.
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