BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Like I said there's a difference between choosing to do evil and creating evil.
Satan's deception.
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NO!!! If you choose to sin you have created evil and are living in sin = evil!!
(Ezek. 28:14)... has nothing to do with Satan..... Satan is never called a man... Let's look at the context!
Eze 28:2 "Son of man, say to the leader of Tyre, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Because your heart is lifted up And you have said, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods In the heart of the seas'; Yet you are a man and not God, Although you make your heart like the heart of God--
So we know the leader of Tyre was a man!!! Satan is never refered to as a man!!! So....
Eze 28:12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation over the (Man) king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 "You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared. 14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 "You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you....
Eze 28:17 Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom on account of your splendor. I threw you down to the ground; I placed you before kings, that they might see you.
Satan has not been thrown to the ground nor placed before kings.... Satan is still the god of this world until Jesus returns.....
Tyre is situated on the Mediterranean coast directly north of Jerusalem between the mountains of Lebanon and the Mediterranean Sea. In ancient times, Tyre flourished as a maritime city and a busy center for commercial trade. The area’s most valuable export was its then world-famous purple dye.
Only the Holy Spirit can open blind eyes.... Is Satan a man... I think not!
Eze 28:2 "Son of man, say to the leader of Tyre, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Because your heart is lifted up And you have said, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods In the heart of the seas'; Yet you are a man and not God, Although you make your heart like the heart of God--
So we know the leader of Tyre was a man!!! Satan is never refered to as a man!!! So....
Eze 28:12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation over the (Man) king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 "You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared. 14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 "You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you....
Eze 28:17 Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom on account of your splendor. I threw you down to the ground; I placed you before kings, that they might see you.
Satan has not been thrown to the ground nor placed before kings.... Satan is still the god of this world until Jesus returns.....
Tyre is situated on the Mediterranean coast directly north of Jerusalem between the mountains of Lebanon and the Mediterranean Sea. In ancient times, Tyre flourished as a maritime city and a busy center for commercial trade. The area’s most valuable export was its then world-famous purple dye.
Only the Holy Spirit can open blind eyes.... Is Satan a man... I think not!
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Lucifer="You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 "You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you....
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Lucifer was given great gifts from GOD . As has the church .
And lucifer had free will . And he let the gifts go to his head and thought he himself was the great power .
HE rebelled .
JESUS warned his own when he saw them rejoicing in the power they had been given .
JESUS saw this pride rising up in his own and he crushed in fast . YES , said JESUS , i have given you ALL POWER
over the serpents and etc , BUT REJOICE NOT IN THIS , RATHER rejoice that your names are wrote above .
My advice is , THE CHURCH better take heed to that cause i see many who act as though they are the
very power of GOD himself . full of pride , full of look at what i can do as though they the great thing .
MANY are filled full of this . MANY .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Barney i think the problem is real simple .
First lets look at GOD . IS IT WRONG for GOD to desire all the glory , all recognition , all worship .
NO .
Is it wrong for the created to do so . YES .
GOD gave free will my friend . ITS NOT WRONG for GOD to do this , BUT IT IS EVIL FOR THE CREATED
to desire and do . THEREIN LIES THE EVIL .
Lucifer was given free will , and with that will he fell in love with his own self . THE very gifts he was given
the power he was given , WENT RIGHT TO HIS HEAD . IT wasnt evil that GOD created lucifer
it was evil that GOD gave free will . REBELLION IS EVIL . ITS NOT EVIL for GOD to desire all worship . THAT IS GOOD
But for the created to do so , IS EVIL . Hope that helps . inquity was FOUND IN HIM
cause he chose that which is RIGHT ONLY FOR GOD , NOT FOR HIM . hope this helps .
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
No you haven't created evil when you choose to sin, when you choose to sin you're choosing to do something evil, not create evil.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
When we choose to think or believe we deserve to be worshiped it is wrong, yes. But when we choose to believe we deserve to be worshiped therefore desire all glory, we are still CHOOSING to do something evil, we're not CREATING evil.
Lucifer is a Latin word.... It has no meaning in Hebrew Scripture...
I want you to think about this.... Why is there only 1.... and I mean only 1 Latin word in the old Testament you read?
Think before you post....
I want you to think about this.... Why is there only 1.... and I mean only 1 Latin word in the old Testament you read?
Think before you post....
Worship
If we may let our Lord and King have the final word. Jesus plainly states, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers. God is spirit; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:23-24). Who does Jesus declare are the "true worshipers"? He insists, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father…" If we would be amongst the true worshipers we must be with Jesus worshiping this Father. Evidently, those who worship "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, three persons in one God," Are not said by Jesus to be the true worshippers. Those who worship the Father as the "only true God" are. The worshipper of the One God, the Father, as Jesus’ own affirmation that he is the true worshipper.
This is the biblical pattern throughout. The so-called Lord's prayer, the model prayer, teaches us to "pray in this way: our Father who art in heaven…"(Matt. 6:9). This pattern of prayer and worship prescribed by our Lord Jesus is followed and sanctioned by every example given in Scripture. See the following:
“Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus; that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom.15:5-6).
" For this reason I bow my knees before the Father," (Eph 3:14)
" giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, " (Eph 5:20)
" We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, "( Col 1:3 )
"giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light." (Col 1:12)
"And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father "through" him." (Col 3:17)
This list is by no means exhaustive. But it is sufficient to show that we are, with our Lord Jesus, to worship and pray to the Father. This is the usual pattern of prayer and worship in the New Testament. They prayed to the one God through the name or authority of Jesus Christ. They evidently were not aware that the Holy Spirit was God (a third person), for wherein all the pages of the Bible to the Saints pray to the Holy Spirit? And where in all the pages of Scripture do the worshipers of God sing to the Holy Spirit as is the general custom within Christendom today?
What about those passages where the Lord Jesus is worship? Or where the Lord Jesus is pray to?
Surely this is proof positive that Jesus is God because only God is to be worshiped? (The words of Jesus are often used to substantiate this belief: "You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve him only" (Matt. 4:10), as though Jesus meant: "I am the Lord your God, worship only me."
But this meaning is totally incongruous and has no parallel in the New Testament record.) Then, of course, there is God the Father's own directive to the Angels concerning Jesus the son of God: "and let all the Angels of God worship him" (Heb. 1:6). The fact that Jesus is worship by Thomas as he falls at his feet and honors him with the confession, "My Lord and my God!" Too many presents the final proof that Jesus is God (John 20:28).
To all of this there is a very simple solution. Once again it comes back to a failure to understand biblical culture; a failure to read the Bible through Hebrew eyes. In the Old Testament in main Hebrew word for worship is shachah. It occurs about 170 times but the surprising thing is that only about half of this number relate to the worship of God as God. This fact is hidden in our English translations. The translators prefer to say "bow down to" or "revere" when shachah refers to homage paid to noble persons, whether Angels or men, but say "worship" when God is the object. This is a false distinction the original texts does not support. Here are just a view
examples:
Lot "worshiped" the two strangers who looked like normal travelers as they entered Sodom (Gen. 19:1).
Abraham "worshipped" the Gentile leaders of the land where he lived (Gen. 23:7).
Jacob "worshipped" his older brother Esau (Gen. 33:3).
Joseph's brothers "worshipped" him (Gen. 43:26).
Ruth "worshipped" Boaz (Ruth 2:10).
David "worshipped" Jonathan (1 Sam. 20:41).
David "worshipped" King Saul (1 Sam. 24:8).
Mephibosheth fell on his face and "worshipped" David (2 Sam. 9:6).
Abigail "worshipped" David the outlaw (1 Sam 25:23, 41).
The whole congregation "worshipped" the King (1 Chron. 9:20).
These are just a few instances of the many that could be cited to show the reluctance of the translators to consistently translate shachah as "worship" when worship of important persons was obviously a common feature of Hebrew culture. In Scripture worship is offered to God and to men. There is no special word and the Old Testament for "worship" reserved exclusively for God.
But there is a reluctance to translate this one-word consistently. If you looked up your English translations of the above verses you will find that you do not use the "w" word. They prefer to say "bowed down" or "revered" or "pay homage to" instead of "worshiped." This inconsistency of translation has created the false impression that only God can be worshiped.
So then, how do we explain this in light of the clear command that we are to worship God the Father alone as both the first commandment and Jesus himself command? Is this a contradiction after all? No way. The answer is that whenever men "worshiped" other men it was a relative worship. In most of the examples above it is clear that the ones worshiped were God's representatives. Once again we are back to the principle of Jewish agency. The Israelites had no difficulty in offering this proportional or relative worship to the ones who came in Gods Name, with God's message. It is obvious that the first commandment "You must not bow yourself down [shachah] to them nor serve them" is not a prohibition against a relative worship of those worthy of it. If this was the case then obviously all these Old Testament godly men and women sinned greatly. God even promises a coming day when He will make our enemies "to come and worship at your feet, and to know that I have loved you" (Rev. 3:9). Such worship of the Saints at God's degree is clearly a relative and proportional worship. It is perfectly legitimate to give honor to whom honor is due. This is why many Jews felt no impropriety in "worshiping" Jesus in the Gospels because they recognized him as a prophet of God, or the Messiah sent from God. But it is preposterous to think these good people believe Jesus was Jehovah God just because they worshiped him. When they saw and heard the mighty works of Jesus they glorified God through
him (Matt. 9:8; 11:27; 28:18; Luke 7:16; 9:11; 10:22). This fits the whole will of the New Testament teaching that it is God the Father who is to receive glory through His son Jesus (Eph. 1:3, 6, 12; 1 Pet. 1:3; Heb. 13:15, etc.). Christ’s exaltation is the means to a higher end. For
through him all worship is ultimately directed to God and Father.
To worship him (Jesus) as Lord Messiah is thus a divinely pleasing but subordinate or relative worship. It is instructive to read that in the coming Kingdom the Lord Jesus will orchestrate the worship of his brethren in the ultimate praise of his Father. He will "proclaim" the Name of God to his "brothers" and he will "in the mist of the congregation singing your praise" (Heb. 2:12).
There, in that glorious Kingdom, Jesus Christ will continue to be a joyful worshiper of God his Father. Thus, the one God and Father he is alone worshiped absolutely. All other divinely appointed worship is homage to persons who are not God himself. Jesus is among those worthy of such worship for he is worshiped as the one Messiah, God's supreme son and agent.
Jesus knew the prophecy: "Worship the Lord with reverence, and… do homage to the Son" (Ps.2: 11-12). Jesus knew God his Father had decreed "Let all the Angels of God worship him"
(Psalms 97:7). Jesus knew that the angelic messengers of Jehovah had in the past received relative worship from God-pleasing men and women. Jesus knew that of the one true God could be addressed as though they were God. And Jesus knew he was the Son and ultimately agent of God, so how much greater his destiny! As the "only begotten Son" whom the father had "sealed" and commissioned he knew that whoever honored him honored the Father also. This was his Father's decree (Psalms 2:11-12; 97:7).
Psalms 2:11-12 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
Psalms 97:7 All worshipers of images are put to shame, who make their boast in worthless idols; worship him, all you gods!
2Co 4:4 …the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
An angel who was a righteous angel when created, chose to dwell on improper or inappropriate thoughts when he started to believe he should be worshiped. He eventually acted on those improper thoughts when he lied about God when he told Eve she would not die if she ate from the forbidden tree, and instead he told her she would be like God knowing good and bad if she ate from the forbidden tree. This angel became the Satan and the Devil when he acted on his improper thoughts. This is something this angel chose to do. This angel wasn't created to be disobedient neither was this angel created to influence anyone to be disobedient. This angel chose to dwell on improper thoughts until he acted on those improper thoughts. He chose to do an act of evil he didn't create evil. This angel influenced Adam and Eve to join him in his rebellion so they chose to do an act of evil too as this angel had chosen to do an act of evil. It's an act of evil to disobey God. God didn't created anyone, angel or human, to do an act of evil.
Sure He does....
KJV Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Really...
Gen 3:5 "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
Evil was known before Eve took the fruit...
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "Now that the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil, he must not be allowed to stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
Adam was not created to live forever....
Thus your confusion....
Silly Child...
KJV Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Then show me the context of this verse... and how The "evil" is judgment counted by man as evil.
Probably Not... Best let the Spirit of God... to defend Us
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Yes Adam was created to live forever. The scriptures show as long as Adam loved God enough to exercise faith in the True God YHWH and was obedient to his command to not eat from the forbidden tree he wouldn't die. So anyone saying or implying God wanted Adam to be disobedient to that command, when he said to not eat of the forbidden tree, isn't being accurate of the truth in the scriptures.
God has never approved of disobedience, so for anyone to say or imply in any sense that it was God's will for Adam to be disobedient to his command concerning the forbidden tree, or to be disobedient to his will concerning the forbidden tree or be disobedient to his purpose concerning the forbidden tree isn't speaking of the truth about the True God in the scriptures.
Why do you think Adam was to live forever
Gen 3:5 "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
Gen 3:6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings. 8 They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
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