Keiw
Well-Known Member
Satan has had 99% minimum mislead since the days of Eden. Many different religions with false gods, yet everyone believes they have God and truth.
Satan was right? Egads!
- Thread starter Rich R
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Satan has had 99% minimum mislead since the days of Eden. Many different religions with false gods, yet everyone believes they have God and truth.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Yes, I know. And then there is that "strong delusion" foretold. Still, if we believe, we are in the good hands of God who is faithful.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Actually these believe-Matt 7:22-23-- One does not want to hear those words from Jesus as judgement, but he says there( those who believe they are christian and believe) they work iniquity= practice a sin. Jesus shared with all in verse 21 what it takes--Those living( now) to do his Fathers will, get to enter his kingdom)--That will is--Man does not live by bread alone, but by EVERY utterance from God.
Years and years of study of his written word, but then one cannot understand alot of what is being said by themselves, they must be taught by the teachers Jesus appoints. Only they have Gods real truth. There are many posing as his teachers but in reality are these-2Cor 11:12-15
ScottA
Well-Known Member
That is all true enough. But it is also true that a moment of belief can and does fulfill every requirement. However, the greatest cautions that come from God are not for the simple who do not go to great means, but do that one thing that is needed Luke 10:42.
Thus, the danger...is to the scholars, and those who go to great lengths and still miss the mark--which speaks of that "strong delusion" like the blindness that came upon Israel, for having believed a lie. Which is not only a possibility, but a reality for our times spoken of and warned of by both Peter and Paul that would most definitely take place, and has; which was prefaced by Christ saying it is rather what "you do not expect" Matthew 24:44. And no, that is not out of context.
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Keiw
Well-Known Member
I just showed you Jesus words at Matt 7:22-23--belief did these no good whatsoever. It takes living now 24/7 doing Jesus Fathers will.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
Desire Of All Nations
Well-Known Member
The Bible shows in many passages that God has a face, nose, ears, mouth, hands, legs, feet, and hair on His head. When the Bible says human beings were made after God's own likeness, it's because He has the same exact features we do. God being a Spirit doesn't make it any less true that we were made in God's likeness. The only difference is that He is a Spirit and we are physical matter.
Jesus is not part of a "Trinity", and unless you can point out the passage(s) that shows Him saying it, you're teaching from your own imagination.
God wouldn't inspire biblical doctrines to be recorded for posterity that no Christian would be able to understand. Such an excuse is 100% illogical, considering the very 1st commandment shows God saying that He doesn't want His people to run the risk of worshiping a false god as God. That inherently implies that He wants people to know and understand who He is, and that He is fundamentally different from all the false gods that this world have constructed for itself.
The trinity doctrine sounds crazy because it is crazy, not because there is some "uber spiritual" dimension behind it that rational people are incapable of understanding. Watching trinitarians trip over themselves and the Bible trying explain this absurd doctrine is enough of a reason to reject it.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
You wont like learning the hard way. If it took one thing why is there thousands of pages in Gods written word? Jesus summed it up--Man does not live by bread alone but by every utterance from God--. And all can see clearly at John 3:36--Those who do not obey Jesus will not see everlasting life. So it most assuredly takes more than 1 thing.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
You get nowhere by using one quote from Jesus against another.
Jesus, summarizing his own Word said what I said...but you make it an argument.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
You can call it hate and mean all you wish. You simply have not grown up enough to have your pretty teachings exposed for what they are. You have no arguments at all against the points and conclusions I draw from your own words.
Others have called me a polytheist, for declaring Jesus is God. I don't get offended with my feelings hurt, but only defend the gospel I preach.
When you respond to any points I make to conclude you are an idolator idolizing a man made god and christ, who is not God, then we can continue.
Until then, I am not brother to idolaters such as yourself. I will not deny Jesus Christ is God in order to schmooze with you and your hero worship.
If we were neighbors, then I would love you by not contending with you, so long as you refrained from trying to proselytize me to your paganism.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
No one wants to. It's just a matter of defending the faith of Jesus.
At least you are honest in referring to your christ as son and god, not Son and God.
Pagan hero worshippers can at least be honest about what they believe, even when wrong:
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
If you ever want to know the Lord God, then you'll have to repent of your god, and the sinning you continue doing with him.
I'm not sinning with my Lord and my God, Jesus Christ. Not now and today anyway. Tomorrow has its own temptation to endure.
JohnPaul
Soldier of Jehovah and Christ
Where does the scriptures say I must believe in the trinity to be born again and therefore make me your brother? Wouldn't Romans 10:9 be enough?
Rom 10:9,
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
No trinity there, nor any requirement for belief that Jesus is God. But you seem to want to change scripture to say something like:
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth that Jesus is God and is the second person of the trinity, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Himself from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Since I haven't followed your directive for me to renounce Jesus as being the son of God, I will expect no reply as you clearly stated you won't do so. But if you change your mind, I'm always glad to discuss scripture with a brother or sister. It's up to you my friend!
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1 John 1:8,
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Now I'm beginning to see why you write much of what you write. You deceive yourself and the truth is not in you. Still, I think you are sincere and are in truth born again, just misinformed as were many of the believing Jews in the early church:
Rom 10:2,
For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rich, the end of Romans 9 has Paul referring to the Jews who were stumbled over Jesus Christ. If they rejected Jesus, how could they be part of the Christian congregation? Their zeal for God was not only inaccurate but also wrongly motivated as they were only concerned about their righteousness instead of God’s just as people today seem more interested in their personal salvation than in exalting God.
Paul said at 1 Corinthians 1:10: “Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
Surely true Christians would think and speak in agreement about the basic identity of God the Father and his Son. I do appreciate your efforts to show kindness though. “A slave of the Lord does not need to fight but needs to be gentle towards all.” (2 Timothy 2:24) A good goal.
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First of all, I didn't write what I wrote because of that guy's Trinitarian stance. I wrote it because of the utter vitriol and hate he demonstrates towards a brother in Christ who doesn't agree with his doctrine. That's where he lacks knowledge.
I would also think the church could agree on the basic identity of God is the Father and Jesus as His son, but the debate has been going on since before Paul even died. He talked about another Jesus being preached in his letter to Timothy. I believe that was the Jesus that was being made into God, something the early church, composed of mostly Jews, would have been aghast at such a suggestion. They were always expecting a man, a man descended from the line of David.
I don't see how crediting God with being resourceful enough to convince free will people to do His will would not be exalting Him, more so than simply coming down and fixing things Himself. There would have been no doubt as to Him resisting all temptation (of course, God can't even be tempted), and believing Himself that He'd raise Himself from the dead. And for Him to convince a man, tempted in all points like you and I, to remain sin free by his own free will and submit to the cross is also much greater than God simply coming down.
All in all, I think making Jesus God both minimized God's love and patience in working with people as well as minimizing the work the man Jesus did on our behalf. He's called the Second Adam for a reason. They were both men.
Anyway, someday Jesus will come back and we'll all know the whole deal. Waiting for that! :)
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One of the most theologically in-depth passages in all Scripture is John 1:1. This verse is a Christian gem. It’s a verse you could quickly coast over, yet it’s stunning how much truth is embedded in such a few words:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (John 1:1)
The trigger word is 'Word.' It’s a translation of the Greek word 'Logos' and serves as a title referring to Jesus. The Logos is God’s quintessential self-unveiling to humankind in the Person of Jesus Christ:
- John 1:1 reveals that the Word was eternal. The word 'was' is in the imperfect tense, indicating a continued existence. So we can unpack it in this way, that the Word, the eternal logos, Jesus Christ, was already in the beginning before the beginning became a beginning. Before time began, the Word was already existing ~ eternally existing. He was there before all of creation was here.
NOTE: The Jehovah's Witness argument against this is that Paul later says, in Colossians 1:15, that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. But His context throughout Colossians 1 is not that Christ was the "first created being," but that He is preeminent over all creation. Paul even (very clearly) explains what he means by firstborn in immediately following, as what amounts to an extended appositive, saying:
"For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities ~ all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything He might be preeminent." (Colossians 1:16-18)
"For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities ~ all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything He might be preeminent." (Colossians 1:16-18)
- John 1:1 calls the Word “God.” Now John takes us deeper into the theology of the eternal logos by attributing deity to Jesus Christ. In the final part of John 1:1 he writes, “and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Jesus was not only with God, but He is God. Jehovah’s Witnesses translate John 1:1 as "the Word was a god" because there is no definite article in the Greek before the final word for God here. What's astounding is that in believing as they do, they inadvertently claim that God Himself is advocating either polytheism or idolatry.
Jesus is divine. He’s God in the flesh. Here’s a clear example of where cultic apologetics are lost in the Greek. The original languages don’t reveal a Jesus who is "a god," but rather reveal a Jesus who is God. It’s not the article (or lack thereof) that determines the translation of the Word, but rather the context. John 1 is merely the beginning of John's gospel; his chief purpose throughout his gospel is showing that Jesus is God. Words surely matter, especially when talking about the Word.
Grace and peace to all.
How does John 1:1 show the Logos to be eternal. God has no beginning. The beginning that John refers to is the beginning at Genesis 1:1, the beginning of the heavens and the earth. The Logos was not God there, he was “with” God. God created all things through him. He didn’t create on his own.
As to the different uses of the indefinite article in John, there are different forms of the Greek word for God. Theos, Theon, Theou. Check out John 1:6, 1:12, 1:13 and 1:18 in the interlinear at Biblehub.com and you will see that all four do not say Theos like John 1:1. I’m not a Greek scholar, but the grammar varies for them regarding the use of articles. Tigger 2 could help you with this.
The issue in Colossians 1:15 as regards eternity is not what rank Jesus had, his preeminence. The translation you use says he is “over” creation. Many translations read he was “of” creation such as American Standard, Amplified, Douay, English Standard, Jerusalem, King James, New American Standard, Revised Standard to mention a few. If Jesus is “of creation” trinitarians have a problem.
Interestingly, protokokos is used again 3 verses later at Colossians 1:18 and reads he is “firstborn from the dead.” I can’t find any Bible that reads “over” the dead.
The chief purpose of John’s Gospel is stated by John at 20:17:
“But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.”
We agree on many things. I completely agree making Jesus God minimizes what they both did. I can’t agree with you that those who fail to sanctify God’s name, who support its replacement in His own Word, those who accept and promote elevating Jesus to a trinity, those who believe that Jehovah eternally tortures in fires of hell are my spiritual brothers. I try to kindly help them but they need to get out of Babylon the Great or they will receive part of her plagues when Jesus comes.
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