Sanctification is not a Process

[stunnedbygrace]

For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

And here again- that we might be. Chastens them that they might be Partakers of His holiness.
The “process” is learning righteousness, being instructed in righteousness, having the mind renewed, that we might be at some point partakers of His holiness.

 

[marks]

Yeah I don’t understand it. But, Epi helped me a bit by explaining the “being” shouldn’t be there. But yeah, as written, it makes zero sense to me.

"being" definitely belongs. You can look at my resources, check wherever you wish, but it is correct.

Much love!

 

[marks]

But yeah, as written, it makes zero sense to me.

Do you wish to have it explained?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

"being" definitely belongs. You can look at my resources, check wherever you wish, but it is correct.

Much love!

One of them doesnt belong. You have necessarily got to get rid of one of them to make it make sense in English.
And no, please, don’t try to explain it to me! Lol.

 

[marks]

Heb 12:9-11

Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

This, to me, seems to be a very strong statement that we may still be works in process.

Much love!

 

[marks]

One of them doesnt belong. You have necessarily got to get rid of one of them to make it make sense in English.
And no, please, don’t try to explain it to me! Lol.

The thing is, it's the Greek grammar. It's just what the Bible says. We can't just get rid of part so that it's easier for us.

And no, please, don’t try to explain it to me! Lol.
:)

Much love!

 

[marks]

And here again- that we might be. Chastens them that they might be Partakers of His holiness.

yes, "chastens them". That's different then "you must crucify your outer man and petition to be called up higher".

And keep reading . . .

Hebrews 12:10-11 KJV
10) For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11) Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

yes, "chastens them". That's different then "you must crucify your outer man and petition to be called up higher".

Part of learning righteousness is learning how weak and unable you are so you go to Him for more grace/power to overcome. And also, you cannot take one verse about the peaceable fruit of righteousness and then do away with the verse that talks of becoming partakers of His holiness. The one deals with righteousness and the other with holiness.

You also cannot get rid of pick up your cross and follow. And you also cannot get rid of sell all you have and even give up your life. The cost between learning righteousness and being a partakers of His holiness is ALL YOU HAVE.

 

[marks]

Part of learning righteousness is learning how weak and unable you are so you go to Him for more grace/power to overcome. And also, you cannot take one verse about the peaceable fruit of righteousness and then do away with the verse that talks of becoming partakers of His holiness. The one deals with righteousness and the other with holiness.

You also cannot get rid of pick up your cross and follow. And you also cannot get rid of sell all you have and even give up your life. The cost between learning righteousness and being a partakers of His holiness is ALL YOU HAVE.

It sounds like you see Scriptures in conflict with each other, so that we have to somehow modify things that they plainly state, in order to make sense of them. I repeat, it sounds like it.

And it sounds like you're saying I ignore parts. Maybe you can clarify these things.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Part of learning righteousness is learning how weak and unable you are so you go to Him for more grace/power to overcome.

According to many Scriptures, He's given us this grace.

Romans 5:1-2 KJV
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

It's by faith in Jesus Christ that He justifies us, and that also give us access into the grace in which we stand.

What if what we're really doing is learning how to hold that faith so that we stand in His grace?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It sounds like you see Scriptures in conflict with each other, so that we have to somehow modify things that they plainly state, in order to make sense of them. I repeat, it sounds like it.

I know it sounds that way to you. I also know WHY it sounds that way to you - because you cannot see a distinction between righteousness and holiness and that some verses talk about one and some about the other.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Romans 5:1-2 KJV
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Counted by God to have done the right thing to have trusted, leading to peace with God through trusting Jesus:
By whom also we have access to (by that faith grown) power to overcome and hope

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I was ready to respond but it’s deleted now.

 

[marks]

I also know WHY it sounds that way to you - because you cannot see a distinction between righteousness and holiness and that some verses talk about one and some about the other.

You know? Or you think you know? Isn't this just your opinion? We've never even really discussed this, as I recall. And I've seen a number of times when you haven't understood things I've written. I don't say that against you, my wife doesn't always understand me. She says I talk like Yoda sometimes. I think I can get convoluted!

But suddenly we're talking about me instead of the topic, and I'm not as interested in discussing me.

I think we could be able to discuss the particular verses without reverting to saying that one or the other has some particular blindness.

Much love!

 

[APAK]

I agree with Episkopos on this point. Why would we not be able to fully walk in the Spirit? I know most of us spend our lives learning to do that, but are you certain it must be that way?

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. What if we trust that we are able to do just that, because we've been freed from sin, and made alive unto God.

Can we live as those who are now alive from among the dead ones? I believe the answer is, yes we can, if we will trust.

It's our own ideas about ourselves that prevent us from trusting Him that way, I think.

Much love!

Marks the point is this....there is not an instant fill-up to 100% full of the Spirit through any amount of sincere pray to God to give it to us for extra credit, and then to sustain such an impossible walk by our own means or self-work. We cannot force this on God to be true through our own efforts at all. God is the judge of what this means to be 100% filled with his Spirit, not us. He knows our walk condition with him. How can we even know how we rate beside knowing we are actually maturing (fruits) in the Spirit of God?! We can experience and sense this for sure. It is absurd to believe we can work or take the initiative to increase God's Spirit within us from say 90% to 100%. As a believer I still wait upon the Spirit of God to lead and guide me as I walk in his presence, period.

And there is not even a 'slow' build up to 100% full of the Spirit in our walk, and then to try and constantly sustain it without any spiritual leakage caused by the flesh to sin for example. It's impossible. This type philosophy can quite easily turn into self-work very quickly.

We are IN THE FLESH and fall down in sin every once and awhile, although it's decreasing by the years, for me at least. We are not perfected yet.

God did not design us as believers to be his Son EXACTLY, in perfection and sinless, after pleading, openly praying and crying to God to give me all the rest of your grace you are hiding from me, or holding back as Epi would make me or anyone believe. It does not work that way and its a gross distortion of salvation, being saved, and the walk of life as a believer up until glorification.

The moment of rebirth, there is no instant fully-developed transformation of our spirit to what God desires as his Son, without this holy walk of maturing over time - sanctification if you will as a progression in time. We start out at milk drinkers....And then to say we
sustain this mature level all the time if one means FULLY walking in the Spirit is nuts. New sin before repentance will always place us less than 100% in the Spirit until we repent or know we are forgiven... That is my experience anyway.

So, no, I think Epi's analogy of filling up the tank etc, is very unrealistic, unscriptural and dangerous to believe in.

And the scripture that says if we are living in the Spirit then let us also walk in the Spirit is very true as I do walk in the Spirit today. I believe I also understand what this scripture means in very simple language.

This again does NOT say or infer we are 100% full of the Spirit as we walk spiritually, at all the moment AFTER we are being saved. It means we live by the Spirit because God has placed us there with him and the seed of the spirit his Son to be transformed into his likeness and grow into him with increased and stronger faith beyond the measure he gave us initially when we first believed.

We are in the flesh and not glorified as of yet the last time I checked! Some think we can be perfected in the flesh already, even today.

 

[Lizbeth]

Those first verses you gave do not speak the same certain immediacy and religious certainty to me as to others.
That we might
By the which we are or will
That they also might be
That He might

What I’m trying to say is…
My sister and I bought apple stock (we didn’t, we’re both quite poor!) that we might one day have something for retirement.

I started an education fund for junior and his little sister that they also might one day be able to go to college.

My husband bought an insurance policy in case he dies, that he might not , at that time, put financial strain on me with funeral costs.

I went to the grocery store this morning that I might cook a nice dinner. Already cooked and eaten an hour ago.

 

[APAK]

Although, do you realize, "those he called he also justified, and those he justified, he also glorified", all are in the same past tense. Interesting, isn't it?

Much love!

The key word I believe you want me to focus on is 'glorified' and how do you view its meaning in this context? thanks

 

[marks]

The key word I believe you want me to focus on is 'glorified' and how do you view its meaning in this context? thanks

I'm only pointing out the grammar, that glorified is in the same past tense as the others.

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

And here again- that we might be. Chastens them that they might be Partakers of His holiness.
The “process” is learning righteousness, being instructed in righteousness, having the mind renewed, that we might be at some point partakers of His holiness.

Chastening doesn't take place in an instant, it is an ongoing process that we might be partakers of His holiness.

He is the potter, we are the clay.....we are His workmanship. (That doesn't mean we don't have our part in this though.)

 

[marks]

and then to sustain such an impossible walk by our own means or self-work.

Where do you see this in my words?

This type philosophy can quite easily turn into self-work very quickly.

Not in the slightest!

Well, OK. If it's a "philosophy", yes, all manner of ill can follow. But when it's a reality, that's an entirely different thing.

What happens when you come to see that you've really actually been freed from sin, just like the Bible says, and when you find that trusting God in His promises actually does overwhelm and completely subdue the motions of sin in the flesh?

The whole idea is that you stop your work, that you recognize that your struggle is your own efforts, and that in God's grace you can walk in the Spirit?

Yes, we falter, we lapse, and there is a great tendency to place the foundation of our reconciliation to God in our own behavior, but we are not reconciled to God based on our obedience, rather, based on Jesus' obedience.

Being reconciled to God in Christ means that my reconciliation isn't determined by my behavior. And this is the truth that sets us free.

"for the motions of sin in our members, which are by the Law . . ."

God's grace in our reconciliation allows us to live apart from the Law, and to freely be with God. And being with God, knowing He is here with me, He loves me, and He is doing what is right and good for me, I then enjoy His communion, and sin is not a part of that.

We struggle and fight to control our flesh, when if we simply fill our minds and hearts with God, and all that is in Him, all of that fleshy stuff, it's gone.

But if you think you've done something that takes you away from Him, that's not the faith in which we stand. Or we just get caught up in the flow of something, and fail to realize that envy has crept in, or worry has crept in, or whatever it is, fleshiness creeps in, and we need to spot it, and repudiate it, and realize that we can by faith put that off, and put on the new man, with his new mind, the mind of Christ.

But this is absolutely not a self-work. The thing is, you cannot walk in the Spirit by your own effort. It's opposite that.

Much love!