Sabbath or Sunday? What did Jesus teach & show in scripture?

[GracePeace]

What does 'Keep My Commandments' mean then as He declared it..

John 15
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He [a]prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4Remain in Me, [c]and I in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit [d]of itself [e]but must remain in the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in Me. 5I am the vine, you are the branches; the one who remains in Me, and I in him [f]bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7If you remain in Me, and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so [g]prove to be My disciples. 9Just as the Father has loved Me, I also have loved you; remain in My love. 10If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and remain in His love. 11These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.
12“This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that a person will lay down his life for his friends. 14You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, because all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17This I command you, that you love one another.

1 John 3
23And this is His commandment: that we should believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and we should love one another just as He commanded us. 24Whoever keeps His commandments remains in God, and God in him. And by this we know that He remains in us: by the Spirit He has given us.

 

[BarneyFife]

Also,
… a covenant is an agreement between two parties, whereas a testament is a declaration made by the testator that is written down and becomes enforced after the

So, it just all depends on what you want to call whatever it is you want to be "in effect" or not.

Got it.

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[DJT_47]

So, it just all depends on what you want to call whatever it is you want to be "in effect" or not.

Got it.

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It's fact not whatever you choose to call it. Words have specific meaning. Don't argue with me because you don't like it, argue with God, it's his word not mine.

 

[BarneyFife]

It's fact not whatever you choose to call it. Words have specific meaning. Don't argue with me because you don't like it, argue with God, it's his word not mine.

Yeah, everybody says that. Which part am I arguing with?

.

 

[BarneyFife]

What did Yeshua and the Apostles say about worshipping on the Jewish Saturday Sabbath?

Jesus didn't say anything about a Jewish sabbath—He said that the Sabbath was made for mankind.

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[DJT_47]

Yeah, everybody says that. Which part am I arguing with?

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You appear to not be accepting the 2 different words. I.e.; Covenant vs. Testament and the biblical logic of why their meaning is different as relates to the context of this discussion. Covenant used in the OT and Testament used in the NT and how the sabbath is effected. If I'm wrong, I apologize. But back to the discussion, sabbath is OT and pertains to the Jews which was within the context of Jesus words, spoken when he was yet alive and under OT criteria. Sabbath has no meaning nor pertinenance to the Christian under NT criteria which came into effect upon Jesus's death, pursuant to tge aforementioned Hebrews 9 scripture. That's how I read it and what my belief is. If you don't agree so be it. Goodbye

 

[Grailhunter]

Jesus didn't say anything about a Jewish sabbath—He said that the Sabbath was made for mankind.

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Well the sun is hot even if no one says it is.....the Sabbath in the OT and NT was Jewish.....So the Jews observe the Saturday Jewish Sabbath....No Christian Sabbath.....Christians worship Yeshua on the Lord's Day....Sunday.

 

[BarneyFife]

You appear to not be accepting the 2 different words. I.e.; Covenant vs. Testament and the biblical logic of why their meaning is different as relates to the context of this discussion. Covenant used in the OT and Testament used in the NT and how the sabbath is effected. If I'm wrong, I apologize. But back to the discussion, sabbath is OT and pertains to the Jews which was within the context of Jesus words, spoken when he was yet alive and under OT criteria. Sabbath has no meaning nor pertinenance to the Christian under NT criteria which came into effect upon Jesus's death, pursuant to tge aforementioned Hebrews 9 scripture. That's how I read it and what my belief is. If you don't agree so be it. Goodbye

Theological word salad

But I accept your apology for being wrong.

Goodbye

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[BarneyFife]

Well the sun is hot even if no one says it is.....the Sabbath in the OT and NT was Jewish.....So the Jews observe the Saturday Jewish Sabbath....No Christian Sabbath.....Christians worship Yeshua on the Lord's Day....Sunday.

Oh, the sun is hot.

And that principle is what makes your arbitrary commentary denying plain statements of Scripture correct.

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[GracePeace]

Yes, and when he said that, the OT was still in effect, so the idea of the sabbath or Sunday shouldn't even be a consideration or discussed. It's clear that the disciples gathered together to worship on the 1st day of the week subsequent to Jesus's death, when the NT was in effect.

So what? Peter kept thinking only Jews could be saved, and sticking to the dietary law, not understanding the New Covenant, until God gave him that vision, and he ate with Gentiles, for which thing the Jewish Christians found fault with him. He didn't defend himself, saying, "No, guys, I kept kosher," he relayed to them the vision, and his eating with the Gentiles was accepted.

The point is that the New Covenant wasn't understood by the disciples, so they kept doing things the way they thought they should be done. Paul understood the New Covenant, and said he was DEAD to the Law (Gal 2:19), and taught other Jewish believers the same was true of them (Ro 7:1-6).

 

[Grailhunter]

What are the Jews to Christianity?…. What were the Jews to Christianity?

I had a Bible in my hand when I was riding around in diapers as friends and family played and sang bluegrass and Christian hymns. I grew up in a theological atmosphere were the church was the focus of our lives….

LOL but my mom was Catholic and my dad was Southern Baptist and they both were well versed in the scriptures. And you can bet debates ensued. I am sure that it was one of the reasons that I became a theologian. And it is one of the reasons that I started my ministry pretty early. And I defined my mission to find the truth ….and I did not care what the truth was.

When I was young the weirdest Christian religion around was the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Not that everybody knew what they believed but the fact that people calling themselves Christians and then named themselves Jehovah’s Witnesses instead of Jesus’ Witnesses was enough to close the door in their faces. That and the fact that they worshipped on Saturday and the windows in the kingdom halls were blacked out led a lot of people to call them a cult.

Today we have a lot of Jew want-ta-bees. Like the Seventh Day Adventists and the Jehovah’s Witnesses who embrace the Old Testament morals and customs and conjure up prophecies for the dates of the apocalypse which fail over and over again.

You are not going to see a Theologian endorse these types of religions. For one there are too many negatives….How far do you engage Judaism until you run into the curse that separates you from Christ and you have fallen from Grace. Without Grace will you make it to Heaven? Then there is the negative and cruel spirit of Judaism in the Old Testament. A cruelty that was driven by Laws that were mandatory to obey….613 Mosaic Laws, that shaped the Israelite / Jewish society to be cruel and violent. Do you want that horrendously cruel and unfair spirit in Christianity? Do you think Christ would endorse killing a woman just because she was raped?

So then the Jews rejected Christ and had him crucified. Crucify Him! Crucify Him! Let His blood be on us and our children! And this curse followed them through most of their history.

The Jews turned against the Christians killing Stephen and harassing the Christians. So once the Christians came into power they remembered Crucify Him! Crucify Him! And saw the Jews as the killers of Christ. The enemies of Christ, the enemies of Christianity. So they treated the Jews like witches and tortured them and burnt them at the stake. Most Christian countries would not allow Jews in their country so Jews were again nomads.

So considering the history of it all, for Christians to do this juggling act between the Old and New Covenant just does not make any sense and can even put their salvation in jeopardy.

You don’t think that abandoning the Lord’s Day for the Jewish Saturday Sabbath does not send a message to Christ?

 

[RedFan]

You somehow miss the point of effectivity of the new covenant. That's the entire matter as relates to this issue. The sabbath was OT not NT. It related to that only as well as to Jews, not Christians. The ushering in of the NT upon the death of Jesus (Hebrews 9) means that the sabbath is no longer applicable. The scriptures corroborate this since the disciples did not worship the Lord on the sabbath, but rather on the first day of the week.

We are talking past each other. I AGREE WITH YOU that keeping the Sabbath is not binding on Christians. But distilling that fact from the ninth chapter of Hebrews is just untenable. That the earliest Christians did not worship on the sabbath may corroborate a dozen scripture passages which indicate the sabbath is not binding on us. Hebrews 9 is just not one of those dozen. It's not. Sorry, it's not. That was my only point. That IS my only point.

 

[DJT_47]

We are talking past each other. I AGREE WITH YOU that keeping the Sabbath is not binding on Christians. But distilling that fact from the ninth chapter of Hebrews is just untenable. That the earliest Christians did not worship on the sabbath may corroborate a dozen scripture passages which indicate the sabbath is not binding on us. Hebrews 9 is just not one of those dozen. It's not. Sorry, it's not. That was my only point. That IS my only point.

You are missing the point of Hebrews 9:16-17 which simply states when the NT criteria actually went into effect for all pertinent topics such as baptism. I use that as an example because people erroneously claim that thief on the cross wasn't baptized, as an errant argument that baptism isn't required for salvation, but that's where Hebrews 9:16-17 come into play, clarifying why it wasn't yet in effect, and that Christ simply forgave the thief as he did others while he was alive, the OT still being in effect and not the NT and it's baptism criteria.

 

[Hobie]

Hebrews 4 extends Sabbath rest to the New Testament.

Now, rest isn't observance. The original commandment was about rest, too. It was the Pharisees that turned a rest day into a day of labors.

True, it was to cease from work and come and worship and give praise to the the Creator, and commune with Him.

 

[Hobie]

John 15
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He [a]prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4Remain in Me, [c]and I in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit [d]of itself [e]but must remain in the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in Me. 5I am the vine, you are the branches; the one who remains in Me, and I in him [f]bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7If you remain in Me, and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so [g]prove to be My disciples. 9Just as the Father has loved Me, I also have loved you; remain in My love. 10If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and remain in His love. 11These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.
12“This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that a person will lay down his life for his friends. 14You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, because all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17This I command you, that you love one another.

1 John 3
23And this is His commandment: that we should believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and we should love one another just as He commanded us. 24Whoever keeps His commandments remains in God, and God in him. And by this we know that He remains in us: by the Spirit He has given us.

Need to bear fruit, and of the Holy Spirit..