Sabbath-Keeping

[Phoneman777]

Whereas none of the NT authors make the slightest mention of the 10 commandments being separate from the OT law,

Did you ever read 2 Corinthians 7:19 KJV where Paul says circumcision doesn't matter, "but keeping the commandments of God" is what matters and then he goes on to say that stealing, dishonoring parents, etc. is forbidden? If that is not a clear distinction between the abolished Mosaic law and the yet binding Ten Commandment Moral law, what else it is? Every other Bible writer who mentions the Ten Commandments says NOTHING about the continuance of the Law of Moses, because they all understood that the Law of Moses was nailed to the cross while the Ten Commandments will be kept for all eternity.

Phoneman777,

There is nothing in the verses you gave (Exodus 4:29 - 5:5) that speaks to the sabbath at all. Also, you have provided no Scriptures to support your statement that the sabbath was observed throughout the OT, much less the NT. You have not addressed Nehemiah 9:14 at all, which contradicts everything you have just said. Please tell me what you have done with Nehemiah 9:14, have you snipped and cut it from your copy of the Bible?

Besides, use some common sense. If the Hebrews had a sabbath, why did they march out of the Land of Goshen on a Saturday?

Also, you have not shown a single Scripture to show that the sabbath was even mentioned in the book of Genesis, nor in the book of Exodus until Ex. 16:23 - all of this is about 2 ½ thousand years since Creation Week, no sabbath anywhere, at any time. What say you?

Zeke25

OK, please allow me to explain each point:

I. >Moses met with the Israelites first before going to Pharaoh (Genesis 4:30 KJV). Next thing we hear Pharaoh say is that Moses made the Israelites "rest" (: Shabbat) from their burdens (Genesis 5:5 KJV). What is "Shabbat"? This proves that the Sabbath commandment already existed and had to be restored before they even left for the wilderness, much less arrived at Mount Sinai.

>Exodus 16 says some Israelites were found breaking the Sabbath before God spoke the Ten Commandments at Mount Sinai, once again proving that it already existed.

>Abraham kept all of God's commandments, statutes, and laws, and if Moses had to restore the Sabbath after 400 years of pagan bondage, is it not reasonable to conclude that it was among the commandments, statutes, and laws that righteous Abraham kept before the 400 year bondage?


II. They marched out to the wilderness before the sun had set on the preparation day which was before the beginning of the Sabbath. Check the link. They no doubt rested on the Sabbath before continuing their journey. (http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-route-travel-times-distances-days.htm)

III. Acts 13:42-44 KJV proves the early church kept the Sabbath and is known as a "Grace Sandwich":

• 
  Verse 42 - On the Sabbath, the Gentiles ask Paul to come back and preach next Sabbath.
  
• 
  Verse 43 - Although preachers today would tell them they've “fallen from grace”, Paul tells these Sabbath keepers to “continue in grace”.
  
• 
  Verse 44 - The next Sabbath finds almost the entire city keeping the Sabbath, praise God.
  

The Sabbath is mentioned throughout the NT, 85 times in the book of Acts alone.

IV. Nehemiah 9:13-14 KJV proves that the Sabbath of the Ten Commandments which the entire congregation heard God speak in awful solemnity is separate and distinct from the sabbaths and laws given by the hand of Moses:

“Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments: And madest known unto them Thy holy sabbath (these are obviously the Ten Commandments) -----
***AND*** (a little word which separates what God spoke from what Moses wrote)
---- commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant: (these are obviously the Laws of Moses).

Daniel 9:10-11 KJV makes the exact same distinction.
The author of 2 Kings 21:8 KJV makes the exact same distinction.
The author of 2 Chronicles 33:8 KJV makes the exact same distinction.
There are many other examples that can be pointed out in Scripture which prove the same.

V. According to church historians, the Sabbath was universally kept for centuries after the Calvary and the Papacy claims responsibility for abolishing Sabbath and setting up Sunday:

"Almost all of the churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, refuse to do this.” - Greek historian Socrates Scholasticus, 450 A.D.

"I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, 'Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.' The Catholic Church says: 'No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.' And lo! The entire civilized world bows down in a reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church." - Priest T. Enright, C.S.S.R., 1884

No it is not. Someone being exempt from a law does not "do away with" the law itself as long as it still applies to someone else.

The saved are not exempt from the law, we are exempt from the condemnation of the law because we (commandment keepers) are walking in accordance with the law by grace through the power of the indwelling Christ.

Jesus said to the rich young ruler "if you will enter into life, keep the commandments" and when the ruler began naming the Ten Commandments, did Jesus say, "WHOA, WHOA!! What are you doing concerning yourself with that???" No, He exposed the commandment which he was breaking which was the last of the Ten Commandments. He didn't tell them to not worry about them because He knew the Holy Spirit writes them on the heart of New Covenant Christians.

Your claim that the Ten Commandments are only for those who can't possibly obey them (Romans 8:7 KJV) but are not for those who have received the Holy Ghost (Matthew 19:17 KJV) is the opposite of what Scripture claims.

 

[Keeth]

The 10 commandments are embodied in the 613 mitzvot, which are embodied in the Old Covenant. This is the Law. There is no distinction.

The Christian standard then...


You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

And again...
’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

This standard encompasses every "rule".

This is the liberty we have as Christians.

Shalom.

I don't know why so many deny that which is so very obvious. There is a major diffeference between the Ten Commandments and all the rest of scripture. No other words were given to humanity with such an awesome display of divinity while spoken to humanity by the mouth of God Himself, and written with His own finger twice. Without question, anyone who presumes to change, alter, or do away with any of the Ten Commandments is verily anti-christ. They are literally putting themselves in the place of God, by presuming authority to change that which has proceeded out of the mouth of God and was written by His own hand. The following testimony should settle the matter for all seeking and accepting the truth.

Ex 19:10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes, 11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai. 12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death: 13 There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount. 14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes. 15 And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives. 16 ¶ And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled. 17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount. 18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. 19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder,Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice. 20 And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the LORD called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up. 21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto the LORD to gaze, and many of them perish. 22 And let the priests also, which come near to the LORD, sanctify themselves, lest the LORD break forth upon them. 23 And Moses said unto the LORD, The people cannot come up to mount Sinai: for thou chargedst us, saying, Set bounds about the mount, and sanctify it. 24 And the LORD said unto him, Away, get thee down, and thou shalt come up, thou, and Aaron with thee: but let not the priests and the people break through to come up unto the LORD, lest he break forth upon them. 25 So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.

20:1 ¶ And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12 ¶ Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 13 Thou shalt not kill. 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15 Thou shalt not steal. 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s. 18 ¶ And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. 19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die. 20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not. 21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was. 22 ¶ And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.


How say those on these boards that there is no difference between the Ten Commandments and not only the other Mosaic laws, but indeed all of scripture?

 

[zeke25]

Did you ever read 2 Corinthians 7:19 KJV where Paul says circumcision doesn't matter, "but keeping the commandments of God" is what matters and then he goes on to say that stealing, dishonoring parents, etc. is forbidden? If that is not a clear distinction between the abolished Mosaic law and the yet binding Ten Commandment Moral law, what else it is? Every other Bible writer who mentions the Ten Commandments says NOTHING about the continuance of the Law of Moses, because they all understood that the Law of Moses was nailed to the cross while the Ten Commandments will be kept for all eternity.

OK, please allow me to explain each point:

I. >Moses met with the Israelites first before going to Pharaoh (Genesis 4:30 KJV). Next thing we hear Pharaoh say is that Moses made the Israelites "rest" (: Shabbat) from their burdens (Genesis 5:5 KJV). What is "Shabbat"? This proves that the Sabbath commandment already existed and had to be restored before they even left for the wilderness, much less arrived at Mount Sinai.

>Exodus 16 says some Israelites were found breaking the Sabbath before God spoke the Ten Commandments at Mount Sinai, once again proving that it already existed.

>Abraham kept all of God's commandments, statutes, and laws, and if Moses had to restore the Sabbath after 400 years of pagan bondage, is it not reasonable to conclude that it was among the commandments, statutes, and laws that righteous Abraham kept before the 400 year bondage?


II. They marched out to the wilderness before the sun had set on the preparation day which was before the beginning of the Sabbath. Check the link. They no doubt rested on the Sabbath before continuing their journey. (http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-route-travel-times-distances-days.htm)

III. Acts 13:42-44 KJV proves the early church kept the Sabbath and is known as a "Grace Sandwich":

• 
  Verse 42 - On the Sabbath, the Gentiles ask Paul to come back and preach next Sabbath.
  
• 
  Verse 43 - Although preachers today would tell them they've “fallen from grace”, Paul tells these Sabbath keepers to “continue in grace”.
  
• 
  Verse 44 - The next Sabbath finds almost the entire city keeping the Sabbath, praise God.
  

The Sabbath is mentioned throughout the NT, 85 times in the book of Acts alone.

IV. Nehemiah 9:13-14 KJV proves that the Sabbath of the Ten Commandments which the entire congregation heard God speak in awful solemnity is separate and distinct from the sabbaths and laws given by the hand of Moses:

“Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments: And madest known unto them Thy holy sabbath (these are obviously the Ten Commandments) -----
***AND*** (a little word which separates what God spoke from what Moses wrote)
---- commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant: (these are obviously the Laws of Moses).

Daniel 9:10-11 KJV makes the exact same distinction.
The author of 2 Kings 21:8 KJV makes the exact same distinction.
The author of 2 Chronicles 33:8 KJV makes the exact same distinction.
There are many other examples that can be pointed out in Scripture which prove the same.

V. According to church historians, the Sabbath was universally kept for centuries after the Calvary and the Papacy claims responsibility for abolishing Sabbath and setting up Sunday:

"Almost all of the churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, refuse to do this.” - Greek historian Socrates Scholasticus, 450 A.D.

"I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, 'Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.' The Catholic Church says: 'No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.' And lo! The entire civilized world bows down in a reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church." - Priest T. Enright, C.S.S.R., 1884

The saved are not exempt from the law, we are exempt from the condemnation of the law because we (commandment keepers) are walking in accordance with the law by grace through the power of the indwelling Christ.

Jesus said to the rich young ruler "if you will enter into life, keep the commandments" and when the ruler began naming the Ten Commandments, did Jesus say, "WHOA, WHOA!! What are you doing concerning yourself with that???" No, He exposed the commandment which he was breaking which was the last of the Ten Commandments. He didn't tell them to not worry about them because He knew the Holy Spirit writes them on the heart of New Covenant Christians.

Your claim that the Ten Commandments are only for those who can't possibly obey them (Romans 8:7 KJV) but are not for those who have received the Holy Ghost (Matthew 19:17 KJV) is the opposite of what Scripture claims.

I. In your 1st numbered para you said Ge 4:30, I believe you meant Ex 4:30; the same as your next quote of Ge 5:5, you must have meant Ex 5:5. Surely, you must be aware that the Hebrew word shabath has a multitude of meanings regarding resting, but it is not the word used for the Sabbath which is the Hebrew word of shabbath. This is faulty exegesis to mix and match words to meet your pre-determined agenda. Pharaoh was not accusing Moses of having the Hebrews observe a Sabbath day, he was accusing him of preventing them from attending to their duties. So, this does not in the least prove that the weekly sabbath was known among the Hebrews, or anyone else. You’re going to need some solid Scriptures to make your point, wishful thinking is not enough.

Ex 16 does not prove that the sabbath was known to anyone prior to Ex 16. It is obvious that they heard about it at that time, for the first time. Manna was given to them 3 weeks prior to the Ten Commandments. With the manna, God obviously instructed them to collect that manna for only 6 six days and to collect double on the 6th day so that they would have manna on the 7th. It is obvious also that they had no clue what a sabbath day was, as many of them went out to collect manna on day 7. Those that collected manna on day 7 did not suffer any harsh penalties or punishment. They were severely chastised, but was the end of it. Isn’t that just like our loving God to break them in slowly. He gave them 3 weeks to get used to the idea of a sabbath, before they were given the Ten Commandments and the harsh penalties that would go with them.

Abraham obeyed the laws he was given. The theory that he obeyed the Law of Moses has no Biblical support whatsoever. He even married his own half sister - hardly the actions of a man who was obeying the Law given to Moses.

II. You have such a mess of misinformation in this paragraph that it is almost impossible to straighten it out. First of all you gave a link to a Rabbinic Judaism calendar. Rabbinic Judaism and their calendar did not exist in all biblical times from Genesis to Revelation. It fits like a square peg in a round hole - in other words it does not fit at all.

The first Passover was on Friday Abib 14, and it is always on Friday Abib 14 for the rest of history according to the Calendar of Scripture. A new day always starts at sunrise, never sunset, and it still is the same. It is the Rabbinic Jews who have messed this up. The day of Passover ended at sunrise on Saturday Abib 15. There was no such thing as a preparation day before the Saturday in which the Hebrews began to leave Egypt. This is why is it called the Feast of Unleavened Bread. They left in a hurry and had no time to prepare leaven for their bread. Ex. 12:39. If they rested, as you suggest, then their leaven would have been fermenting and the Feast of Unleavened Bread would never have happened.


Phoneman, I could go through the rest of your exegesis and discount all of it with no problem at all. You have enough information that I’ve already given to you to feed yourself on. But it will do you no good for me to waste my time and try and teach you regarding every point you have made, when the points I did cover are so messed up by you. Repent of those points I have covered, ask for more Scriptures that support that which I said and I’ll continue on with the rest of your post. These points I’ve covered are your ground work. With a faulty foundation the rest of your argumentation will also fall quite easily. So, let’s stick with the foundation. It must be overhauled. Can you not agree with that?

Zeke25

 

[justaname]

I don't know why so many deny that which is so very obvious. There is a major diffeference between the Ten Commandments and all the rest of scripture. No other words were given to humanity with such an awesome display of divinity while spoken to humanity by the mouth of God Himself, and written with His own finger twice. Without question, anyone who presumes to change, alter, or do away with any of the Ten Commandments is verily anti-christ. They are literally putting themselves in the place of God, by presuming authority to change that which has proceeded out of the mouth of God and was written by His own hand. The following testimony should settle the matter for all seeking and accepting the truth.

Ex 19:10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes, 11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai. 12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death: 13 There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount. 14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes. 15 And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives. 16 ¶ And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled. 17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount. 18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. 19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder,Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice. 20 And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the LORD called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up. 21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto the LORD to gaze, and many of them perish. 22 And let the priests also, which come near to the LORD, sanctify themselves, lest the LORD break forth upon them. 23 And Moses said unto the LORD, The people cannot come up to mount Sinai: for thou chargedst us, saying, Set bounds about the mount, and sanctify it. 24 And the LORD said unto him, Away, get thee down, and thou shalt come up, thou, and Aaron with thee: but let not the priests and the people break through to come up unto the LORD, lest he break forth upon them. 25 So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.

20:1 ¶ And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12 ¶ Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 13 Thou shalt not kill. 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15 Thou shalt not steal. 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s. 18 ¶ And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. 19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die. 20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not. 21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was. 22 ¶ And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.


How say those on these boards that there is no difference between the Ten Commandments and not only the other Mosaic laws, but indeed all of scripture?

Starting with the second statement you make a grievous fallacy. Why would you elevate any portion of Scripture above another? Indeed man will not live on bread alone but on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

Let me ask do you worship the commands of God given to a sanctified people for His namesake or do you worship the God that gave them?

5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,

8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.
10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.
11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

The commands written on stone are the ministry of death. This ministry has no glory compared to the glory in the New Covenant, the ministry of righteousness. And how are we righteous? Through Christ for He is our righteousness. For we within our selves are not righteous, yet He who is in us, that is if we do indeed have His Spirit, is righteous. For it is not by our works that we obtain righteousness, rather through our faith.

The second point I assert is the Law is 613 mitzvot. This is the Law of Moses, the Old Covenant. Exodus 19 and 20 do not deny this, in fact they agree with me. Lets give the whole context in Exodus 19 starting with the first verse instead of in the middle of the text.

In the third month after the sons of Israel had gone out of the land of Egypt, on that very day they came into the wilderness of Sinai.
2 When they set out from Rephidim, they came to the wilderness of Sinai and camped in the wilderness; and there Israel camped in front of the mountain.
3 Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob and tell the sons of Israel:
4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings, and brought you to Myself.

5 ‘Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine;
6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.”

7 So Moses came and called the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which the Lord had commanded him.

8 All the people answered together and said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do!” And Moses brought back the words of the people to the Lord.

9 The Lord said to Moses, “Behold, I will come to you in a thick cloud, so that the people may hear when I speak with you and may also believe in you forever.” Then Moses told the words of the people to the Lord.

Indeed the covenant made was always united with the commands. Also concerning the commands God did not stop describing His command as the Scripture reveals. This portion picks up right where you conveniently left off.

So the people stood at a distance, while Moses approached the thick cloud where God was.
22 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven.
23 ‘You shall not make other gods besides Me; gods of silver or gods of gold, you shall not make for yourselves.
24 ‘You shall make an altar of earth for Me, and you shall sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your oxen; in every place where I cause My name to be remembered, I will come to you and bless you.
25 ‘If you make an altar of stone for Me, you shall not build it of cut stones, for if you wield your tool on it, you will profane it.
26 ‘And you shall not go up by steps to My altar, so that your nakedness will not be exposed on it.’

Now let me again ask something of you. Do you sacrifice at the altar? I ask this because we can clearly see this portion of God's revelation and commands to the nation people of Israel is intrinsically tied to everything else within that context. To speak it another way, God gave these commands along with the others. It was the people who desired not to hear God, only from Moses.

 

[Phoneman777]

I don't know why so many deny that which is so very obvious. There is a major diffeference between the Ten Commandments and all the rest of scripture. No other words were given to humanity with such an awesome display of divinity while spoken to humanity by the mouth of God Himself, and written with His own finger twice. Without question, anyone who presumes to change, alter, or do away with any of the Ten Commandments is verily anti-christ. They are literally putting themselves in the place of God, by presuming authority to change that which has proceeded out of the mouth of God and was written by His own hand. The following testimony should settle the matter for all seeking and accepting the truth.

Ex 19:10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes, 11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai. 12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death: 13 There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount. 14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes. 15 And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives. 16 ¶ And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled. 17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount. 18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. 19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder,Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice. 20 And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the LORD called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up. 21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto the LORD to gaze, and many of them perish. 22 And let the priests also, which come near to the LORD, sanctify themselves, lest the LORD break forth upon them. 23 And Moses said unto the LORD, The people cannot come up to mount Sinai: for thou chargedst us, saying, Set bounds about the mount, and sanctify it. 24 And the LORD said unto him, Away, get thee down, and thou shalt come up, thou, and Aaron with thee: but let not the priests and the people break through to come up unto the LORD, lest he break forth upon them. 25 So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.

20:1 ¶ And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12 ¶ Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 13 Thou shalt not kill. 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15 Thou shalt not steal. 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s. 18 ¶ And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. 19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die. 20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not. 21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was. 22 ¶ And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.


How say those on these boards that there is no difference between the Ten Commandments and not only the other Mosaic laws, but indeed all of scripture?

The distinction is so blatant.

• The Moral Law was re-written by the finger of God (Exodus 34:1 KJV) after the first tables of stone were broken, and yet people still don't get the eternal nature of them.
• The Mosaic Law was written by the hand of Moses.

• The tables of stone were on the inside of the ark. (Deuteronomy 31:24-26)
• The Mosaic law was kept separate on the outside of the ark.(Deuteronomy 31:24-26)

• The Mosaic law of the priesthood was a "carnal commandment". (Hebrews 7:16 KJV)
• Paul says in Romans 7:12 KJV that "the law is holy and the commandment holy, just, and good" . Can the same law be simultaneously holy and carnal? Paul's frequent mention of the Ten Commandments in the NT evidences to what law he refers in Romans 7:12 KJV.

• You can nail paper scrolls to a Cross all day long.(Colossians 2:14 KJV)
• You can't nail tablets of stone to anything.

• The Mosaic Law was "against us", according to Deuteronomy 31:24-26 KJV, and the law Paul said was nailed to the cross was "the handwriting of ordinances that was against us"(Colossians 2:14 KJV)
• The Moral Law was written by the finger of God and will never be pass away (Psalm 111:7-8 KJV)\

• Revelation 22:14 KJV, the last chapter of the last book of the Bible, says that only those who "keep His commandments may have a right to the Tree of Life" and the following verse proceeds to condemn as "dogs" those who engage in Ten Commandment breaking such as lying, murder, whoremongering (adultery), sorcery (idolatry), and loving lies.
• The Mosaic Law was a "carnal commandment" that was "against us" and was "nailed to the cross" and we are to judge no man according to what was written in it. (Colossians 2:14-16 KJV) The sabbaths referred to here are the Jewish yearly sabbaths which were "shadows" of things to come, are are BESIDE THE (weekly) SABBATHS OF THE LORD THY GOD." (Leviticus 23)

 

[JimParker]

Will I be able to have Satan as my god before God in heaven?
Will I be able to fashion graven images and bow myself down to them in heaven?
Will I be able to run around heaven blaspheming God's name?
Will I be able to lie, steal, kill, etc. in heaven?

Iniquity means "known, deliberate commandment breaking". Please stop fighting against God's eternal Ten Commandments. The most tragic words ever spoken will be Jesus saying to shocked, panicked, utterly confounded so-called "Christian" commandment breakers, "I never knew you. Depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."

Do you have a point?

Will I be able to have Satan as my god before God in heaven?
Will I be able to fashion graven images and bow myself down to them in heaven?
Will I be able to run around heaven blaspheming God's name?
Will I be able to lie, steal, kill, etc. in heaven?

Iniquity means "known, deliberate commandment breaking". Please stop fighting against God's eternal Ten Commandments. The most tragic words ever spoken will be Jesus saying to shocked, panicked, utterly confounded so-called "Christian" commandment breakers, "I never knew you. Depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."

You didn't respond to anything I posted.

Do you have a point?

If so, please state it clearly.

 

[Phoneman777]

I. In your 1st numbered para you said Ge 4:30, I believe you meant Ex 4:30; the same as your next quote of Ge 5:5, you must have meant Ex 5:5. Surely, you must be aware that the Hebrew word shabath has a multitude of meanings regarding resting, but it is not the word used for the Sabbath which is the Hebrew word of shabbath. This is faulty exegesis to mix and match words to meet your pre-determined agenda. Pharaoh was not accusing Moses of having the Hebrews observe a Sabbath day, he was accusing him of preventing them from attending to their duties. So, this does not in the least prove that the weekly sabbath was known among the Hebrews, or anyone else. You’re going to need some solid Scriptures to make your point, wishful thinking is not enough.

Ex 16 does not prove that the sabbath was known to anyone prior to Ex 16. It is obvious that they heard about it at that time, for the first time. Manna was given to them 3 weeks prior to the Ten Commandments. With the manna, God obviously instructed them to collect that manna for only 6 six days and to collect double on the 6th day so that they would have manna on the 7th. It is obvious also that they had no clue what a sabbath day was, as many of them went out to collect manna on day 7. Those that collected manna on day 7 did not suffer any harsh penalties or punishment. They were severely chastised, but was the end of it. Isn’t that just like our loving God to break them in slowly. He gave them 3 weeks to get used to the idea of a sabbath, before they were given the Ten Commandments and the harsh penalties that would go with them.

Abraham obeyed the laws he was given. The theory that he obeyed the Law of Moses has no Biblical support whatsoever. He even married his own half sister - hardly the actions of a man who was obeying the Law given to Moses.

II. You have such a mess of misinformation in this paragraph that it is almost impossible to straighten it out. First of all you gave a link to a Rabbinic Judaism calendar. Rabbinic Judaism and their calendar did not exist in all biblical times from Genesis to Revelation. It fits like a square peg in a round hole - in other words it does not fit at all.

The first Passover was on Friday Abib 14, and it is always on Friday Abib 14 for the rest of history according to the Calendar of Scripture. A new day always starts at sunrise, never sunset, and it still is the same. It is the Rabbinic Jews who have messed this up. The day of Passover ended at sunrise on Saturday Abib 15. There was no such thing as a preparation day before the Saturday in which the Hebrews began to leave Egypt. This is why is it called the Feast of Unleavened Bread. They left in a hurry and had no time to prepare leaven for their bread. Ex. 12:39. If they rested, as you suggest, then their leaven would have been fermenting and the Feast of Unleavened Bread would never have happened.


Phoneman, I could go through the rest of your exegesis and discount all of it with no problem at all. You have enough information that I’ve already given to you to feed yourself on. But it will do you no good for me to waste my time and try and teach you regarding every point you have made, when the points I did cover are so messed up by you. Repent of those points I have covered, ask for more Scriptures that support that which I said and I’ll continue on with the rest of your post. These points I’ve covered are your ground work. With a faulty foundation the rest of your argumentation will also fall quite easily. So, let’s stick with the foundation. It must be overhauled. Can you not agree with that?

Zeke25

Yes, I am a bit under the weather.
> Brother, please, if there was one day that Moses would tell the people to "shabbat", do you really think it would be any other day than "Sabbath", especially since they were later commanded to work the other six? "Come now, let us reason together."

> You contend that the Sabbath commandment didn't exist until after the captivity when it was codified at Mount Sinai, but will you argue that killing and adultery were not part of the laws that Abraham kept because they were not mentioned until Sinai? What about Cain? What about Joseph? Your argument is extremely inconsistent. Of course all these were aware of the Ten Commandments and God's desire that they keep them. Cain married his sister as did the other children of Adam and it was not until long after Abraham that God in His wisdom saw the the thinning gene pool would no longer allow for it. Abraham didn't obey that law because it did not exist, but the Sabbath goes all the way back to Creation week.

> Yes, it is very loving of God to break them in slowly, seeing that they had 400 years of paganism to corrupt themselves with Sun worship on the first day of the week.

> It is your exegesis which is faulty seeing that according to Scripture, a Biblical day starts at sunset (go back to Genesis 1 and read about creation week) and is when the Sabbath begins.

> I thank you for the opportunity to debate Scripture with you and I will remind you that only those who will keep the Sabbath in the kingdom will now "keep His commandments that they might have a right to the Tree of Life", because those who engage in lying, murder, idolatrous sorcery, adulterous whoremongering, or break any other of the eternal Ten Commandments will be lost forever.

Do you have a point?

You didn't respond to anything I posted.

Do you have a point?

If so, please state it clearly.

The entire premise of your argument is that there is no distinction between the Ten Commandments and the Mosaic law. I have proven that there is just such a distinction (post 181 and 185). If you aren't willing to recognize the distinction, the most glaring being that the Ten Commandments stand forever and ever (Psalm 111:7-8 KJV) while the "handwriting of ordinances that was against us" which is the Mosaic Law (Deuteronomy 31:26 KJV) was nailed to the Cross (Colossians 2:14 KJV), then what's the point of further debate? It's like me trying to show you the difference between fiber optic and copper cable splicing while you insist that it's absurd for me to suggest any difference exists at all.

 

[justaname]

Yes, I am a bit under the weather.
> Brother, please, if there was one day that Moses would tell the people to "shabbat", do you really think it would be any other day than "Sabbath", especially since they were later commanded to work the other six? "Come now, let us reason together."

> You contend that the Sabbath commandment didn't exist until after the captivity when it was codified at Mount Sinai, but will you argue that killing and adultery were not part of the laws that Abraham kept because they were not mentioned until Sinai? What about Cain? What about Joseph? Your argument is extremely inconsistent. Of course all these were aware of the Ten Commandments and God's desire that they keep them. Cain married his sister as did the other children of Adam and it was not until long after Abraham that God in His wisdom saw the the thinning gene pool would no longer allow for it. Abraham didn't obey that law because it did not exist, but the Sabbath goes all the way back to Creation week.

> Yes, it is very loving of God to break them in slowly, seeing that they had 400 years of paganism to corrupt themselves with Sun worship on the first day of the week.

> It is your exegesis which is faulty seeing that according to Scripture, a Biblical day starts at sunset (go back to Genesis 1 and read about creation week) and is when the Sabbath begins.

> I thank you for the opportunity to debate Scripture with you and I will remind you that only those who will keep the Sabbath in the kingdom will now "keep His commandments that they might have a right to the Tree of Life", because those who engage in lying, murder, idolatrous sorcery, adulterous whoremongering, or break any other of the eternal Ten Commandments will be lost forever.

The entire premise of your argument is that there is no distinction between the Ten Commandments and the Mosaic law. I have proven that there is just such a distinction (post 181 and 185). If you aren't willing to recognize the distinction, the most glaring being that the Ten Commandments stand forever and ever (Psalm 111:7-8 KJV) while the "handwriting of ordinances that was against us" which is the Mosaic Law (Deuteronomy 31:26 KJV) was nailed to the Cross (Colossians 2:14 KJV), then what's the point of further debate? It's like me trying to show you the difference between fiber optic and copper cable splicing while you insist that it's absurd for me to suggest any difference exists at all.

Please refer to post #184...

 

[JimParker]

Yes, I am a bit under the weather.
> Brother, please, if there was one day that Moses would tell the people to "shabbat", do you really think it would be any other day than "Sabbath", especially since they were later commanded to work the other six? "Come now, let us reason together."

> You contend that the Sabbath commandment didn't exist until after the captivity when it was codified at Mount Sinai, but will you argue that killing and adultery were not part of the laws that Abraham kept because they were not mentioned until Sinai? What about Cain? What about Joseph? Your argument is extremely inconsistent. Of course all these were aware of the Ten Commandments and God's desire that they keep them. Cain married his sister as did the other children of Adam and it was not until long after Abraham that God in His wisdom saw the the thinning gene pool would no longer allow for it. Abraham didn't obey that law because it did not exist, but the Sabbath goes all the way back to Creation week.

> Yes, it is very loving of God to break them in slowly, seeing that they had 400 years of paganism to corrupt themselves with Sun worship on the first day of the week.

> It is your exegesis which is faulty seeing that according to Scripture, a Biblical day starts at sunset (go back to Genesis 1 and read about creation week) and is when the Sabbath begins.

> I thank you for the opportunity to debate Scripture with you and I will remind you that only those who will keep the Sabbath in the kingdom will now "keep His commandments that they might have a right to the Tree of Life", because those who engage in lying, murder, idolatrous sorcery, adulterous whoremongering, or break any other of the eternal Ten Commandments will be lost forever.

The entire premise of your argument is that there is no distinction between the Ten Commandments and the Mosaic law. I have proven that there is just such a distinction (post 181 and 185). If you aren't willing to recognize the distinction, the most glaring being that the Ten Commandments stand forever and ever (Psalm 111:7-8 KJV) while the "handwriting of ordinances that was against us" which is the Mosaic Law (Deuteronomy 31:26 KJV) was nailed to the Cross (Colossians 2:14 KJV), then what's the point of further debate? It's like me trying to show you the difference between fiber optic and copper cable splicing while you insist that it's absurd for me to suggest any difference exists at all.

<<I will remind you that only those who will keep the Sabbath in the kingdom will now "keep His commandments that they might have a right to the Tree of Life",>>

All who believe have entered His Sabbath rest.

<< The entire premise of your argument is that there is no distinction between the Ten Commandments and the Mosaic law.>>

No, it's not.

<<I have proven that there is just such a distinction>>

No, you have only proven that you have made a point where there is none to be made.

<<while the "handwriting of ordinances that was against us" which is the Mosaic Law>>

Wrong again. All of the Law, in stone and otherwise, was handwriting.

<<then what's the point of further debate?>>

Probably none since you can't get beyond the nonsense you have been taught.

<< It's like me trying to show you the difference between fiber optic and copper cable splicing while you insist that it's absurd for me to suggest any difference exists at all.>>

REEEELY bad analogy.

That is based on observable data.

Mother White's Sabbath-keeping is based on her ignorance.

 

[zeke25]

Phoneman777 said:


the Sabbath goes all the way back to Creation week.

a Biblical day starts at sunset (go back to Genesis 1 and read about creation week) and is when the Sabbath begins.

Zeke25 reply:
There was no sabbath in Creation Week. A biblical day begins at sunrise, that is exactly what is taught in Genesis Chp 1. But you have not the desire to learn the truth. So, you bail out. Your loss.

Zeke25

 

[JimParker]

Yes, I am a bit under the weather.
> Brother, please, if there was one day that Moses would tell the people to "shabbat", do you really think it would be any other day than "Sabbath", especially since they were later commanded to work the other six? "Come now, let us reason together."

> You contend that the Sabbath commandment didn't exist until after the captivity when it was codified at Mount Sinai, but will you argue that killing and adultery were not part of the laws that Abraham kept because they were not mentioned until Sinai? What about Cain? What about Joseph? Your argument is extremely inconsistent. Of course all these were aware of the Ten Commandments and God's desire that they keep them. Cain married his sister as did the other children of Adam and it was not until long after Abraham that God in His wisdom saw the the thinning gene pool would no longer allow for it. Abraham didn't obey that law because it did not exist, but the Sabbath goes all the way back to Creation week.

> Yes, it is very loving of God to break them in slowly, seeing that they had 400 years of paganism to corrupt themselves with Sun worship on the first day of the week.

> It is your exegesis which is faulty seeing that according to Scripture, a Biblical day starts at sunset (go back to Genesis 1 and read about creation week) and is when the Sabbath begins.

> I thank you for the opportunity to debate Scripture with you and I will remind you that only those who will keep the Sabbath in the kingdom will now "keep His commandments that they might have a right to the Tree of Life", because those who engage in lying, murder, idolatrous sorcery, adulterous whoremongering, or break any other of the eternal Ten Commandments will be lost forever.

The entire premise of your argument is that there is no distinction between the Ten Commandments and the Mosaic law. I have proven that there is just such a distinction (post 181 and 185). If you aren't willing to recognize the distinction, the most glaring being that the Ten Commandments stand forever and ever (Psalm 111:7-8 KJV) while the "handwriting of ordinances that was against us" which is the Mosaic Law (Deuteronomy 31:26 KJV) was nailed to the Cross (Colossians 2:14 KJV), then what's the point of further debate? It's like me trying to show you the difference between fiber optic and copper cable splicing while you insist that it's absurd for me to suggest any difference exists at all.

<< the Ten Commandments stand forever and ever (Psalm 111:7-8 KJV) while the "handwriting of ordinances that was against us" which is the Mosaic Law (Deuteronomy 31:26 KJV) was nailed to the Cross (Colossians 2:14 KJV),>>

Please tell us exactly what to do to keep the Sabbath holy using ONLY the 10 Commandments as your source since what you thinks is the "Mosaic Law" was nailed to the cross.

Don't use anything from the "Mosaic Law." Explain what the 10 Commandments tells us we must do to keep the Sabbath.

 

[Phoneman777]

Starting with the second statement you make a grievous fallacy. Why would you elevate any portion of Scripture above another? Indeed man will not live on bread alone but on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

Let me ask do you worship the commands of God given to a sanctified people for His namesake or do you worship the God that gave them?

5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,

8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.
10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.
11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

The commands written on stone are the ministry of death. This ministry has no glory compared to the glory in the New Covenant, the ministry of righteousness. And how are we righteous? Through Christ for He is our righteousness. For we within our selves are not righteous, yet He who is in us, that is if we do indeed have His Spirit, is righteous. For it is not by our works that we obtain righteousness, rather through our faith.

The second point I assert is the Law is 613 mitzvot. This is the Law of Moses, the Old Covenant. Exodus 19 and 20 do not deny this, in fact they agree with me. Lets give the whole context in Exodus 19 starting with the first verse instead of in the middle of the text.

In the third month after the sons of Israel had gone out of the land of Egypt, on that very day they came into the wilderness of Sinai.
2 When they set out from Rephidim, they came to the wilderness of Sinai and camped in the wilderness; and there Israel camped in front of the mountain.
3 Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob and tell the sons of Israel:
4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings, and brought you to Myself.

5 ‘Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine;
6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.”

7 So Moses came and called the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which the Lord had commanded him.

8 All the people answered together and said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do!” And Moses brought back the words of the people to the Lord.

9 The Lord said to Moses, “Behold, I will come to you in a thick cloud, so that the people may hear when I speak with you and may also believe in you forever.” Then Moses told the words of the people to the Lord.

Indeed the covenant made was always united with the commands. Also concerning the commands God did not stop describing His command as the Scripture reveals. This portion picks up right where you conveniently left off.

So the people stood at a distance, while Moses approached the thick cloud where God was.
22 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven.
23 ‘You shall not make other gods besides Me; gods of silver or gods of gold, you shall not make for yourselves.
24 ‘You shall make an altar of earth for Me, and you shall sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your oxen; in every place where I cause My name to be remembered, I will come to you and bless you.
25 ‘If you make an altar of stone for Me, you shall not build it of cut stones, for if you wield your tool on it, you will profane it.
26 ‘And you shall not go up by steps to My altar, so that your nakedness will not be exposed on it.’

Now let me again ask something of you. Do you sacrifice at the altar? I ask this because we can clearly see this portion of God's revelation and commands to the nation people of Israel is intrinsically tied to everything else within that context. To speak it another way, God gave these commands along with the others. It was the people who desired not to hear God, only from Moses.

I. Why would you elevate any portion of Scripture above another? Indeed man will not live on bread alone but on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
Jesus elevated Scripture above other Scripture, did He not? “On these two commandments (Deuteronomy 6:4 KJV, Leviticus 19:17 KJV) hang all the law and the prophets." (Matthew 22:40 KJV)
The fact that Jesus considers God's very own commands to love Him and others to be that which every other Scripture ("the Law and the Prophets") is subordinate is undeniable, and the first four of the Ten commandments prove your love for God and the last six, your love for your neighbor.

II. Let me ask do you worship the commands of God given to a sanctified people for His namesake or do you worship the God that gave them?
“Know ye not to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether sin (“transgression of the law” - 1 John 3:4 KJV) unto death or obedience unto righteousness”. (Romans 6:16 KJV)
A person can claim allegiance to Jesus all he wants but the proof is obedient surrender. "Why call ye Me, Lord Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46 KJV)

III. The commands written on stone are the ministry of death.
The Ten Commandments are indeed a ministry of death to those who attempt to gain salvation by them, but a “Law of Liberty” to New Covenant Christians who “speak and do” them by His grace because they are written on their hearts. (James 2:10-12 KJV) (2 Corinthians 3:1-3 KJV) (Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV)

IV. This is the Law of Moses, the Old Covenant.
If you are correct that the Law of Moses was the Old Covenant, then we should have no problem replacing the word “law” with “Old Covenant” in Romans 3:31 KJV, right? Let's try it:

“Do we then make void the (Old Covenant) through grace? God forbid, we establish the (Old Covenant).” Uh, no...the law is most certainly not the Old Covenant.

A covenant is "an agreement between two parties based on mutual promises":

• God said, “Obey Me and I'll bless you."
• The Israelites said, “All that the Lord has spoken we shall do and be obedient". They failed in their self assurance, not recognizing that "apart from Me ye can do nothing".

[SIZE=9pt]The problem was not the Ten Commandment law, which is "holy, just, and good" - it was the promises of the people which were faulty. The New Covenant is based on "better promises", not exemption from obedience: [/SIZE]

• God: "Keep My law and I'll bless you, and BTW if you surrender to Me I'm going to come into your heart and keep it for you and give you credit for what I have done."
• Us: "Praise God from Whom all blessings flow and thank you, dear Lord, for the Cross which is both pardon for sin and the power to live a holy life which is my reasonable service!" (Romans 12:1 KJV)

[SIZE=9pt]So, you see that the law was merely a component of the Old Covenant, not the Old Covenant itself, and God Himself says it is a component of the New Covenant which the Holy Spirit writes on the hearts of those who partake of it. (Hebrews 8:8-10 KJV, 2 Corinthians 3:1-3 KJV)[/SIZE]

Soap box time:
This entire debate is IMHO silly. No Christian will ever claim that they are at liberty to fornicate, sleep with their sister in law, steal, lie, blaspheme, engage in idolatry, dishonor their parents, covet, kill, or hold Satan above God Almighty, but because of the Sabbath (*sigh*)... If people worked as hard figuring out how to keep the Ten Commandments as they do trying to get around them, the jails would be empty, marriages would last a lifetime, bars on windows and doors would disappear, and it is no wonder that criminals don't feel a need to obey the law when they see so-called “Christians” claiming that they are exempt from God's law.

I. In your 1st numbered para you said Ge 4:30, I believe you meant Ex 4:30; the same as your next quote of Ge 5:5, you must have meant Ex 5:5. Surely, you must be aware that the Hebrew word shabath has a multitude of meanings regarding resting, but it is not the word used for the Sabbath which is the Hebrew word of shabbath. This is faulty exegesis to mix and match words to meet your pre-determined agenda. Pharaoh was not accusing Moses of having the Hebrews observe a Sabbath day, he was accusing him of preventing them from attending to their duties. So, this does not in the least prove that the weekly sabbath was known among the Hebrews, or anyone else. You’re going to need some solid Scriptures to make your point, wishful thinking is not enough.

Ex 16 does not prove that the sabbath was known to anyone prior to Ex 16. It is obvious that they heard about it at that time, for the first time. Manna was given to them 3 weeks prior to the Ten Commandments. With the manna, God obviously instructed them to collect that manna for only 6 six days and to collect double on the 6th day so that they would have manna on the 7th. It is obvious also that they had no clue what a sabbath day was, as many of them went out to collect manna on day 7. Those that collected manna on day 7 did not suffer any harsh penalties or punishment. They were severely chastised, but was the end of it. Isn’t that just like our loving God to break them in slowly. He gave them 3 weeks to get used to the idea of a sabbath, before they were given the Ten Commandments and the harsh penalties that would go with them.

Abraham obeyed the laws he was given. The theory that he obeyed the Law of Moses has no Biblical support whatsoever. He even married his own half sister - hardly the actions of a man who was obeying the Law given to Moses.

II. You have such a mess of misinformation in this paragraph that it is almost impossible to straighten it out. First of all you gave a link to a Rabbinic Judaism calendar. Rabbinic Judaism and their calendar did not exist in all biblical times from Genesis to Revelation. It fits like a square peg in a round hole - in other words it does not fit at all.

The first Passover was on Friday Abib 14, and it is always on Friday Abib 14 for the rest of history according to the Calendar of Scripture. A new day always starts at sunrise, never sunset, and it still is the same. It is the Rabbinic Jews who have messed this up. The day of Passover ended at sunrise on Saturday Abib 15. There was no such thing as a preparation day before the Saturday in which the Hebrews began to leave Egypt. This is why is it called the Feast of Unleavened Bread. They left in a hurry and had no time to prepare leaven for their bread. Ex. 12:39. If they rested, as you suggest, then their leaven would have been fermenting and the Feast of Unleavened Bread would never have happened.


Phoneman, I could go through the rest of your exegesis and discount all of it with no problem at all. You have enough information that I’ve already given to you to feed yourself on. But it will do you no good for me to waste my time and try and teach you regarding every point you have made, when the points I did cover are so messed up by you. Repent of those points I have covered, ask for more Scriptures that support that which I said and I’ll continue on with the rest of your post. These points I’ve covered are your ground work. With a faulty foundation the rest of your argumentation will also fall quite easily. So, let’s stick with the foundation. It must be overhauled. Can you not agree with that?

Zeke25

The only foundation in need of overhaul is your foundation, which is built upon sin unto death instead of obedience unto righteousness.

 

[justaname]

Phoneman777,

I apologize you misunderstood the first portion of the post was to Keeth...

I have become convinced you are indoctrinated in your denomination. Your Romans 13 ploy proves nothing...

I have proven through the Scriptures themselves the 10 commands are apportioned to the Law, which is apportioned to the Old Covenant.

The covenant was established before God spoke the 10 commands to the people.

Your fallacy is not my obligation. The liberty we have is love. Yes God does say to keep His commands, and He explicitly directs His commands to the New Covenant believer...

23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.
1 John 3:23-24

The Spirit God has given testifies to the truth, not my practice of the Shabbot.

 

[Phoneman777]

Phoneman777,

I apologize you misunderstood the first portion of the post was to Keeth...

I have become convinced you are indoctrinated in your denomination. Your Romans 13 ploy proves nothing...

I have proven through the Scriptures themselves the 10 commands are apportioned to the Law, which is apportioned to the Old Covenant.

The covenant was established before God spoke the 10 commands to the people.

Your fallacy is not my obligation. The liberty we have is love. Yes God does say to keep His commands, and He explicitly directs His commands to the New Covenant believer...

23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.
1 John 3:23-24

The Spirit God has given testifies to the truth, not my practice of the Shabbot.

No apologies necessary. I welcomed the opportunity to respond with what I thought were solid points of doctrine, especially the one about the law=Old Covenant.

The Bible and the Bible alone is my substantiation of every single spiritual proposition I've made. Whether or not I belong to a denomination is irrelevant. I don't concern myself with the denominational membership of others because I deal in doctrinal truth, not "denominational truth", and I would suggest you do as well.

Do you believe that the Spirit of God will ever lead one to break His Ten Commandments? If so, which one?

 

[zeke25]

I. Why would you elevate any portion of Scripture above another? Indeed man will not live on bread alone but on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
Jesus elevated Scripture above other Scripture, did He not? “On these two commandments (Deuteronomy 6:4 KJV, Leviticus 19:17 KJV) hang all the law and the prophets." (Matthew 22:40 KJV)
The fact that Jesus considers God's very own commands to love Him and others to be that which every other Scripture ("the Law and the Prophets") is subordinate is undeniable, and the first four of the Ten commandments prove your love for God and the last six, your love for your neighbor.

II. Let me ask do you worship the commands of God given to a sanctified people for His namesake or do you worship the God that gave them?
“Know ye not to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether sin (“transgression of the law” - 1 John 3:4 KJV) unto death or obedience unto righteousness”. (Romans 6:16 KJV)
A person can claim allegiance to Jesus all he wants but the proof is obedient surrender. "Why call ye Me, Lord Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46 KJV)

III. The commands written on stone are the ministry of death.
The Ten Commandments are indeed a ministry of death to those who attempt to gain salvation by them, but a “Law of Liberty” to New Covenant Christians who “speak and do” them by His grace because they are written on their hearts. (James 2:10-12 KJV) (2 Corinthians 3:1-3 KJV) (Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV)

IV. This is the Law of Moses, the Old Covenant.
If you are correct that the Law of Moses was the Old Covenant, then we should have no problem replacing the word “law” with “Old Covenant” in Romans 3:31 KJV, right? Let's try it:

“Do we then make void the (Old Covenant) through grace? God forbid, we establish the (Old Covenant).” Uh, no...the law is most certainly not the Old Covenant.

A covenant is "an agreement between two parties based on mutual promises":

• God said, “Obey Me and I'll bless you."
• The Israelites said, “All that the Lord has spoken we shall do and be obedient". They failed in their self assurance, not recognizing that "apart from Me ye can do nothing".

[SIZE=9pt]The problem was not the Ten Commandment law, which is "holy, just, and good" - it was the promises of the people which were faulty. The New Covenant is based on "better promises", not exemption from obedience: [/SIZE]

• God: "Keep My law and I'll bless you, and BTW if you surrender to Me I'm going to come into your heart and keep it for you and give you credit for what I have done."
• Us: "Praise God from Whom all blessings flow and thank you, dear Lord, for the Cross which is both pardon for sin and the power to live a holy life which is my reasonable service!" (Romans 12:1 KJV)

[SIZE=9pt]So, you see that the law was merely a component of the Old Covenant, not the Old Covenant itself, and God Himself says it is a component of the New Covenant which the Holy Spirit writes on the hearts of those who partake of it. (Hebrews 8:8-10 KJV, 2 Corinthians 3:1-3 KJV)[/SIZE]

Soap box time:
This entire debate is IMHO silly. No Christian will ever claim that they are at liberty to fornicate, sleep with their sister in law, steal, lie, blaspheme, engage in idolatry, dishonor their parents, covet, kill, or hold Satan above God Almighty, but because of the Sabbath (*sigh*)... If people worked as hard figuring out how to keep the Ten Commandments as they do trying to get around them, the jails would be empty, marriages would last a lifetime, bars on windows and doors would disappear, and it is no wonder that criminals don't feel a need to obey the law when they see so-called “Christians” claiming that they are exempt from God's law.

The only foundation in need of overhaul is your foundation, which is built upon sin unto death instead of obedience unto righteousness.

Phoneman,

You bare false witness and reveal you are biblically illiterate. You refuse to debate the issues placed before you, instead you rant and rant about new things when you have no answer to the questions put before you. It's an old debate tactic that is futile. You keep raising new topics instead of addressing what is already before you. Your mind is like a mixing bowl, no organization, no disciple, no understanding, and no peace. But I suspect that you are a purposeful deceiver.

Zeke25

 

[justaname]

Phoneman,

You bare false witness and reveal you are biblically illiterate. You refuse to debate the issues placed before you, instead you rant and rant about new things when you have no answer to the questions put before you. It's an old debate tactic that is futile. You keep raising new topics instead of addressing what is already before you. Your mind is like a mixing bowl, no organization, no disciple, no understanding, and no peace. But I suspect that you are a purposeful deceiver.

Zeke25

Zeke25
Please refer to the rules and regulations....thank you in advance for your cooperation.
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/21331-change-to-the-christianity-board-rules/#entry247713

 

[Keeth]

Starting with the second statement you make a grievous fallacy. Why would you elevate any portion of Scripture above another? Indeed man will not live on bread alone but on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

I didn't elevate one portion of scripture above another, God did. God did not allow humanity to author the Ten Commandments by mouth or writing even by inspiration or vision as He did all the rest. He came down to earth in person and personally spoke and wrote it for us. This makes it different than all other scripture which was by inspiration or a vision from God. I'm not the one ignoring the obvious here. I do not negate the words of Christ pertaining to man living by every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God, but simply point out a distinction within the same which God Himself made.

Let me ask do you worship the commands of God given to a sanctified people for His namesake or do you worship the God that gave them?

What kind of question is that? What does it pertain too? Do you mean to say one can worship God while ignoring what He has commanded? Who worships the commands of God, rather than God HImself? Is it not those who make their observance their salvation? No one can be saved by keeping God's commandments, but a great many can and will be lost by ignoring them.

5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,

8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.
10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.
11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

The commands written on stone are the ministry of death. This ministry has no glory compared to the glory in the New Covenant, the ministry of righteousness. And how are we righteous? Through Christ for He is our righteousness. For we within our selves are not righteous, yet He who is in us, that is if we do indeed have His Spirit, is righteous. For it is not by our works that we obtain righteousness, rather through our faith.

Just what do you think the righteousness of Christ is my freind? Christ perfectly obeyed the commandments of God in our fallen human flesh, because we could not. He did not do this so we could or would continue to ignore God's commandments, but that we might join Him in keeping them.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 ¶ Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

We could not perform God's will in our sinful flesh, which is the keeping of the commandments of God, therefore Christ came to perform the same for us. Not that we might continue in sin, but that we might join Him in righteousness.

Rom 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Those who keep the law as a means of salvation neither do keep it or are saved, they are trying to live by the letter of the law. The law is spiritual, and its purpose is first to lead us to the cross of Christ where we might die the spiritual death which is unto salvation. If you do not understand this, then you do not understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. The law leads us to Jesus Christ and Him crucified unto salvation over and over again. The law is spiritual, it is those who try to be saved by it that make it of the letter instead of the Spirit. Its purpose never has been and never will be to save us, but rather to lead us to Christ who alone saves. It is the essential standard that leads to Christ.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The law is spiritual, we are carnal. It is the carnal heart that seeks salvation by the law, the spiritual heart is lead to the cross by the law. It responds to the conviction of the law by the Holy Spirit of God, by seeking the promised Messiah. Not that the law can continue to be ignored or used improperly, but that it might be obeyed by submission to and by Christ who alone ever did or will fulfill it. Those who refuse to die the death of Christ though, will not either have the life of Christ in their stead.

Rom 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Those who do away with the law, do away with the conviction of the Holy Spirit of God regarding sin. Thus they will not seek forgiveness or repentance according to the Spirit, or obtain the same. Dying in Christ that He might live within is not a one time experience, it is the continual experience of the saved. Those who do away with the law, do away with that which ever convicts them of their need for Christ in both death and life.

2Cor 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. 11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

Those who will not die with Christ, will not have His life within them either. Those who ignore the law, will not be lead to the cross by it either.

The second point I assert is the Law is 613 mitzvot. This is the Law of Moses, the Old Covenant. Exodus 19 and 20 do not deny this, in fact they agree with me. Lets give the whole context in Exodus 19 starting with the first verse instead of in the middle of the text.

In the third month after the sons of Israel had gone out of the land of Egypt, on that very day they came into the wilderness of Sinai.
2 When they set out from Rephidim, they came to the wilderness of Sinai and camped in the wilderness; and there Israel camped in front of the mountain.
3 Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob and tell the sons of Israel:
4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings, and brought you to Myself.

5 ‘Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine;
6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.”

7 So Moses came and called the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which the Lord had commanded him.

8 All the people answered together and said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do!” And Moses brought back the words of the people to the Lord.

9 The Lord said to Moses, “Behold, I will come to you in a thick cloud, so that the people may hear when I speak with you and may also believe in you forever.” Then Moses told the words of the people to the Lord.

Indeed the covenant made was always united with the commands. Also concerning the commands God did not stop describing His command as the Scripture reveals. This portion picks up right where you conveniently left off.

So the people stood at a distance, while Moses approached the thick cloud where God was.
22 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven.
23 ‘You shall not make other gods besides Me; gods of silver or gods of gold, you shall not make for yourselves.
24 ‘You shall make an altar of earth for Me, and you shall sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your oxen; in every place where I cause My name to be remembered, I will come to you and bless you.
25 ‘If you make an altar of stone for Me, you shall not build it of cut stones, for if you wield your tool on it, you will profane it.
26 ‘And you shall not go up by steps to My altar, so that your nakedness will not be exposed on it.’

Now let me again ask something of you. Do you sacrifice at the altar? I ask this because we can clearly see this portion of God's revelation and commands to the nation people of Israel is intrinsically tied to everything else within that context. To speak it another way, God gave these commands along with the others. It was the people who desired not to hear God, only from Moses.

Even if what you are proposing were true, do you think they caught God by surprise on this one? Do you think He didn't know that they would be afraid and tell Moses to speak to them instead of God? Of course He did, and then He knew also that He would not speak the civil and or ceremonial laws of Israel to them with his own mouth. Nevertheless, it is highly unlikely that the scenario played out as you suggest. What do you think the Israelites did, do you actually think that they interupted God while He was speaking and told Moses to tell God to speak through him to them and not to speak to them Himself? Get a grip, God was already done speaking to them, which is why they had a chance to ask Moses to speak with them instead of God. Just because they asked for this when God stopped speaking, doesn't mean that God intended to go on speaking to them in the frist place. To the contrary, I think it absurd to believe that they interupted God and told Him not to speak to them. This would not have gone over well at all.

Once some Israelites touched the arch of God when and how they should not have and they were immediately destroyed. Once two of the HIgh Priests sons burned incense when and where they were not supposed to, and they were immediately destoryed. Here now you think all Israel interupted God while He was speaking while the mountain He was upon was shaking, burning, and smoking like a chimney stack, without any consequence but God HImself stopping His speech to them. Really?

 

[Phoneman777]

Phoneman,

You bare false witness and reveal you are biblically illiterate. You refuse to debate the issues placed before you, instead you rant and rant about new things when you have no answer to the questions put before you. It's an old debate tactic that is futile. You keep raising new topics instead of addressing what is already before you. Your mind is like a mixing bowl, no organization, no disciple, no understanding, and no peace. But I suspect that you are a purposeful deceiver.

Zeke25

Zeke, Paul said to honor your father and mother, stop stealing, fornicating, coveting, etc. James says if you commit adultery or kill, you become a transgressor of the law. John said do not commit idolatry. Luke says the Sabbath was observed all throughout the book of Acts. Are all these false witnessing, purposeful deceivers as well?

I didn't elevate one portion of scripture above another, God did. God did not allow humanity to author the Ten Commandments by mouth or writing even by inspiration or vision as He did all the rest. He came down to earth in person and personally spoke and wrote it for us. This makes it different than all other scripture which was by inspiration or a vision from God. I'm not the one ignoring the obvious here. I do not negate the words of Christ pertaining to man living by every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God, but simply point out a distinction within the same which God Himself made.


What kind of question is that? What does it pertain too? Do you mean to say one can worship God while ignoring what He has commanded? Who worships the commands of God, rather than God HImself? Is it not those who make their observance their salvation? No one can be saved by keeping God's commandments, but a great many can and will be lost by ignoring them.


Just what do you think the righteousness of Christ is my freind? Christ perfectly obeyed the commandments of God in our fallen human flesh, because we could not. He did not do this so we could or would continue to ignore God's commandments, but that we might join Him in keeping them.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 ¶ Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

We could not perform God's will in our sinful flesh, which is the keeping of the commandments of God, therefore Christ came to perform the same for us. Not that we might continue in sin, but that we might join Him in righteousness.

Rom 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Those who keep the law as a means of salvation neither do keep it or are saved, they are trying to live by the letter of the law. The law is spiritual, and its purpose is first to lead us to the cross of Christ where we might die the spiritual death which is unto salvation. If you do not understand this, then you do not understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. The law leads us to Jesus Christ and Him crucified unto salvation over and over again. The law is spiritual, it is those who try to be saved by it that make it of the letter instead of the Spirit. Its purpose never has been and never will be to save us, but rather to lead us to Christ who alone saves. It is the essential standard that leads to Christ.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The law is spiritual, we are carnal. It is the carnal heart that seeks salvation by the law, the spiritual heart is lead to the cross by the law. It responds to the conviction of the law by the Holy Spirit of God, by seeking the promised Messiah. Not that the law can continue to be ignored or used improperly, but that it might be obeyed by submission to and by Christ who alone ever did or will fulfill it. Those who refuse to die the death of Christ though, will not either have the life of Christ in their stead.

Rom 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Those who do away with the law, do away with the conviction of the Holy Spirit of God regarding sin. Thus they will not seek forgiveness or repentance according to the Spirit, or obtain the same. Dying in Christ that He might live within is not a one time experience, it is the continual experience of the saved. Those who do away with the law, do away with that which ever convicts them of their need for Christ in both death and life.

2Cor 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. 11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

Those who will not die with Christ, will not have His life within them either. Those who ignore the law, will not be lead to the cross by it either.


Even if what you are proposing were true, do you think they caught God by surprise on this one? Do you think He didn't know that they would be afraid and tell Moses to speak to them instead of God? Of course He did, and then He knew also that He would not speak the civil and or ceremonial laws of Israel to them with his own mouth. Nevertheless, it is highly unlikely that the scenario played out as you suggest. What do you think the Israelites did, do you actually think that they interupted God while He was speaking and told Moses to tell God to speak through him to them and not to speak to them Himself? Get a grip, God was already done speaking to them, which is why they had a chance to ask Moses to speak with them instead of God. Just because they asked for this when God stopped speaking, doesn't mean that God intended to go on speaking to them in the frist place. To the contrary, I think it absurd to believe that they interupted God and told Him not to speak to them. This would not have gone over well at all.

Once some Israelites touched the arch of God when and how they should not have and they were immediately destroyed. Once two of the HIgh Priests sons burned incense when and where they were not supposed to, and they were immediately destoryed. Here now you think all Israel interupted God while He was speaking while the mountain He was upon was shaking, burning, and smoking like a chimney stack, without any consequence but God HImself stopping His speech to them. Really?

Keeth, it's good to see that someone else correctly understands the relationship between law and grace. We are saved by grace but are judged by our works. Our obedience proves that the Savior dwells within us and, conversely, our rebellion proves that the "first radical" (as referred to by Saul Alinsky) dwells there. Jesus' death on the Cross is not a license for us to continue doing that which made necessary His death on the Cross in the first place. (Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)

Catholicism teaches that the sinner's guilt of sin is removed by rites and rituals while he continues to be a slave to sin.

Apostate Protestantism teaches that the sinner's guilt of sin is removed by simply "believing" it has been removed while he continues to be a slave to sin.

The Bible teaches that one's guilt of sin is removed by the blood of Jesus and he is no longer a slave to sin. (Romans 6:14-16 KJV)

 

[Dan57]

God rested from all His work, this was what was acknowledged by observing the sabbath. But the sabbath (rest) was also an observance of what was promised. The Messiah ended God's rest by finishing His work on the cross.. We now rest in Christ, not on Saturday.. Imo, our spiritual rest can and is only found in Christ, you can physically rest any day you want. Those who put Christ on a shelf and worship the last day of the week instead, are missing the big picture. "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28). jmo

 

[Axehead]

Hey, is it ok if I esteem every day the same? Seems like it is ok with the Holy Spirit as he inspired Paul to write the following:

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.