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man is born of flesh . the curse is upon all and has been since the day eve and adam did eat of the tree .
This is Calvinist greatest error. To be born again before sin is even forgiven.
Yes, I'm well aware. And again, Calvin attributed what he believed about God and about Scripture to Augustine, who lived almost 1500 years after Calvin, and only a little over 200 years after Christ.
Not in the least. John Calvin was just as much a Christian as you or I, and one of the main things he emphasized in all his preaching and writing was the glory and sovereignty of God. His main concern was soteriology, because that was one of the issues of the day. You can claim that he was wrong ~ as Jacobus Arminius did, and whom you follow in the footsteps of, whether you acknowledge it (or even realize it) or not, but that's just your opinion... which, of course, you are welcome to.
And how is that different than what Paul says in Ephesians 1? Quoting him directly: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will..." It's not different at all, Behold, not the slightest bit.
Ah, there's nothing anyone will do to alter their eternal fate if left to themselves, or, as Paul puts it in Romans 1, if God gives them over to their own foolish passions, which He does because they exchange the truth for a lie and worship creation rather than creator, which, in so doing, leaves them without excuse. They regard the Gospel as foolishness, which Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2.
LOL! Just what you have said? Yes, I see what you have said, but they are just your thoughts. I have quoted many passages of Scripture to you (and TLHKAJ, by the way), and to those passages I have heard no response. That's a bit puzzling... and troubling... <smile>
And why do they not believe, Behold? Again, listen to what Jesus says to the Jews at the Feast of Dedication in John 10: "...you do not believe because you are not among my sheep" (v.26)... those given to Him by the Father, Who "is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand" (v.29).
Right, I agree, but what is faith, Behold? Fortunately, we don't even have to discuss that, because the writer of Hebrews defines it for us as "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). Where do you get this faith, Behold? Do you manufacture it in yourself? Do you give yourself this assurance of things hoped for, this conviction of things not seen? If so, if you have assured and convicted yourself, then, what kind of assurance or conviction is that? No, God, by His Holy Spirit, gives you this faith, works it in you, as it were. Observe:
LOL! No... <chuckles>
I think, Behold, you either don't understand, or you're just being purposefully obtuse.
And neither did I, not did John Calvin. But Ezekiel says ~ well, actually God says, through Ezekiel, that He "give(s us) a new heart, and a new spirit (He puts) within (us). And (He removes) the heart of stone from (our) flesh and give(s us) a heart of flesh. And (He puts His) Spirit within (us), and cause(s us) to walk in (His) statutes and (to) be careful to obey (His) rules" (Ezekiel 36:27) And Paul says this same thing in this way, that "we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10). And so does Peter: "(God) has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead... (and we) by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:4-5).
Much agreed, but if it is God, by His Spirit, leading you... He will not fail. As Paul says in Romans 8:14, "all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God."
He did; see above. It's not just me ~ or John Calvin ~ saying that, Behold, but God Himself. Scripture. See above.
Ah, John 3:16, and "whosoever"... Again, Jesus is there echoing the words of Joel, who quoted God Himself hundreds of years before Him...
Absolutely, unequivocally, indisputably not:
Why would they need it if they already have it from birth? That, of course, is a rhetorical question, in light of what you said immediately above and my response to that... <smile>
You say this, Johann, but then you say:
So... which is it? <smile>
This is a bit incredible... <smile> I mean, Johann, John Calvin said ~ and I say ~ but really because Jesus said, we MUST be born again SO THAT THEN we will believe. Otherwise, we would remain dead in our sins and thus continue to regard the Gospel as foolishness.
That He does. Indeed.
This is in error.
Right, and belief is an act of the will which occurs because of the new heart received in the new birth.
Then as we grow in Christ / in our heart, we develop his fruit from within us, we must surrender our heart over to him and we do in time ..imo.
Nothing, really; all I was saying is that the disagreement goes all the way back.
I brought up the issue of God's foreknowledge as spoken of by Paul in Romans 8 some time ago... in post #1337. That post was in response to TLHKAJ, who I think things along the same lines as you on that subject. The question was, what exactly is God's foreknowledge regarding salvation? My post:
LOL!
Ah, so you're saying that God's choosing depends on our choosing, that this purpose of election is really our own, rather than God's, and that we somehow elect ourselves... Well, this is in direct opposition to what Paul says in Romans 9:11-16... "...God’s purpose of election... it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy."
This is in direct opposition to what Paul says in Ephesians 1:5-6... "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will
Right, I never said that (nor did Calvin), but the new birth only occurs because of this predestination.
This predestination, Behold is to be conformed to the image of His Son (Jesus). Now, this is not worth quibbling over, but I would call this new birth and our adoption really kind of the same thing; in being born again of the Spirit, we are then of God, and thus sons of God, adopted into His household, in which... as David says in Psalm 23... we will dwell forever.
It's all one thing, really, one big event; we are justified by God ~ declared righteous by God, Christ's righteousness imputed to us ~ and we are born again of the Spirit. Such is the beginning of our Christian walk, the beginning of God's good work in us, which, as Paul says in Philippians 1:6, He will ~ will, not "might" ~ bring to completion at the day of Christ.
If it were actually the will of God for everyone to believe in Jesus, Behold, then everyone would believe in Jesus (eventually, I guess) and thus be saved. But we know that some will not.
No, Paul is speaking specifically to Christians in 1 Corinthians 12, Behold, the faith as defined in Hebrews 11:1, as I said. Wow.
Right, but the 'whosoever' is limited to only the ones whom the Lord calls, Just as Joel says (Joel 2:32). Yes, it's still happening today, but probably not for very much longer...
