Run AWAY from Calvinism!

[Lambano]

I do believe false converts outnumber the truly saved.

False converts may be the best example that faith precedes regeneration. How did they have faith before eventually falling away?

Unless you believe in evanescent grace, which makes God a deceiver. Rather blasphemous, that doctrine.

 

[Renniks]

i had explained this in another topic earlier tonite, so here it is again;

1 john is full of explaining this, texts from 1 John demonstrate that regeneration precedes faith. The texts are as follows:
“If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him” (1 John 2:29). “No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God” (1 John 3:9). “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7). “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whomever has been born of him” (1 John 5:1).
no christian would say that before we are born again we must practice righteousness, for such a view would teach works-righteousness. Nor would we say that first we avoid sinning, and then are born of God, for such a view would suggest that human works cause us to be born of God. Nor would we say that first we show great love for God, and then he causes us to be born again. No, it is clear that practicing righteousness, avoiding sin, and loving are all the consequences or results of the new birth. But if this is the case, then we must interpret 1 John 5:1 in the same way, for the structure of the verse is the same as we find in the texts about practicing righteousness (1 John 2:29), avoiding sin (1 John 3:9), and loving God (1 John 4:7). It follows, then, that 1 John 5:1teaches that first God grants us new life and then we believe Jesus is the Christ.

13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

This is all written to Christians who already had faith. What it tells us is simply: believe and you will have eternal life. It's so strange how some want to warp the plain teaching of scripture into a man made religion.
"This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God."

Calvinists would say this is impossible to do unless God irresistibly causes you to believe...so sit around waiting for God to zap you with faith I guess?
No, it speaks of faith as something we can choose.
"This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us."
In Calvinism, no one can approach God. They can only be dragged into the kingdom.

 

[Johann]

Did she have the Holy Spirit?

Now that's a brilliant question Lambano, how do you answer?
J.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

But yet they crossed the Red Sea.

By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient. (Hebrews 11:31)

Did she have the Holy Spirit?

“Being the supreme Potentate, God is not bound by any law or consideration other than His own imperial will; and therefore does He have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens.”

“In singling her out to be the recipient of His saving favors, God indeed made it evident that He is no respecter of persons. By her own choice she was given up to the vilest of sins, but by the divine choice she was predestinated to be delivered from that lust which is the most effective in detaining persons under its power—washing her whiter than snow by the precious blood of Christ and giving her a place in His own family. It is in just such cases that the unmerited favor of God shines forth the more illustriously. There was nothing whatever in this poor fallen women to commend her unto the favor of God, but “where sin abounded grace did much more abound”

 

[Lambano]

Now that's a brilliant question Lambano, how do you answer?
J.

I brilliantly side-step it.

 

[Johann]

and here comes grail. All we need now is robert derrick and the whole calvin haters club will be here.[/QUOT

I brilliantly side-step it.

Lol!
J.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

In Calvinism, no one can approach God. They can only be dragged into the kingdom.

see, this is where your pagan ideas come out in full display. The fact that God thru the Holy Spirit changes people, regeneration, so that they welcome God’s decree is a sign of mercy. Do you really care what it takes to get to Heaven? Do you see God changing you, even by force, so that you can escape hell as a bad thing?? Your pride of thinking that you have to have input goes against everything in romans 9.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

False converts may be the best example that faith precedes regeneration. How did they have faith before eventually falling away?

Unless you believe in evanescent grace, which makes God a deceiver. Rather blasphemous, that doctrine.

wait…. What???? They never had faith to begin with. False converts were never saved to begin with.
Dr james kennedy said ““The vast majority of people who are members of churches in America today are not Christians. I say that without the slightest fear of contradiction. I base it on empirical evidence of 24 years of examining thousands of people.”

A. W. Tozer said, “It is my opinion that tens of thousands, if not millions, have been brought into some kind of religious experience by accepting Christ and they have not been saved.”

False converts can be saved, just as any atheist can be saved. But they have to be regenerated first by God, then they will have life saving faith.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

easy. Read james. Chapter 2 specifically. He said even the demons believe in God. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. If a person believes in God, yet has no works, what do we call them? A false convert. Are false converts saved? No. Did simon the magician believe? Yes? Was he saved when confronted by peter? No.

moral of the story. Theres a difference between belief and faith. I believe in God yes, but im not saved. How do i know? I keep committing the same willful habitual sin daily. My works are showing my lack of faith. If i had faith, i would not suffer with habitual sin. If i were saved, regenerated, i would not have habitual sin in my life.

So…by works you mean not sinning at all, ever? That was a question. Or by works, do you mean, not the same sin over and over but rather maybe occasional sin but just not a besetting sin?
So it seems works=not sinning to you? And it means this from day one? How does that leave room for trust/faith to grow and that growing to lead to the faith to be healed mentally, emotionally?

 

[Lambano]

wait…. What???? They never had faith to begin with.

Sorry, no. I've read enough testimonies from those who trusted Jesus for a while and were running a good race, but became angry or disillusioned and quit. Or converted to Islam. Or just quietly slipped away into the darkness.

Sorry; I should have specifically said "apostates", not just "false converts".

From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. (John 6:66)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Faith is a learned obedience. We learn the obedience of faith. It’s a verse. It says Jesus learned the obedience of trust (faith) by the things He suffered. Trust is an obedience. We practice it. We get caught in nauseous worries over literally everything and we return to trust. We learn to do this and grow in trust. We return over and over again and learn to stand more firm in our trust.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

So…by works you mean not sinning at all, ever? That was a question. Or by works, do you mean, not the same sin over and over but rather maybe occasional sin but just not a besetting sin?
So it seems works=not sinning to you? And it means this from day one? How does that leave room for trust/faith to grow and that growing to lead to the faith to be healed mentally, emotionally?

oh no, we all will still sin no matter how far our sanctification is. The fact that paul still sinned is proof of that.
By works i mean the good fruit of the Spirit as paul said in galatians 5.
Having a besetting sin doesnt necessarily mean you arent saved, but if it never goes away, then i would say yes, that is a sign you arent saved.

A human baby is fed by his parents and growth is natural. But a baby Christian will only grow as much as he purposefully reads and obeys and applies the Word to his life. Growth is up to him. There are Christians who have been saved many years, but spiritually they are still babies. They cannot understand the deeper truths of the Word of God.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Sorry, no. I've read enough testimonies from those who trusted Jesus for a while and were running a good race, but became angry or disillusioned and quit. Or converted to Islam. Or just quietly slipped away into the darkness.

Sorry; I should have specifically said "apostates", not just "false converts".

From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. (John 6:66)

sorry old friend, we’ll have to disagree here. OSAS is Biblical.
1 john 2:19 “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.”

 

[stunnedbygrace]

faith is trusting that we have been saved.

So when Jesus would say to a disciple, why is your faith so little? He meant, why do you not trust you have been saved?

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Faith is a learned obedience. We learn the obedience of faith. It’s a verse. It says Jesus learned the obedience of trust (faith) by the things He suffered. Trust is an obedience. We practice it. We get caught in nauseous worries over literally everything and we return to trust. We learn to do this and grow in trust. We return over and over again and learn to stand more firm in our trust.

thats a new take on faith. I will give that more thought today. I guess my only question is how is it learned? What teaches us to grow faith?

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

So when Jesus would say to a disciple, why is your faith so little? He meant, why do you not trust you have been saved?

prior to Jesus death, im not sure what the disciples thought about their salvation. Thomas even doubted that Jesus rose from the dead, he needed proof. What we do know is that after Jesus ascended to Heaven, and the Holy Spirit came in His place, they all were much more mature in their faith, and i do believe the Holy Spirit was heavily sanctifying them.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

By works i mean the good fruit of the Spirit

In that passage he says those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. That does not happen from day one. If it did, why tell men to pick up their cross and follow Him? My flesh was not put under to no longer ceaselessly torture me for…over 14 years after I’d received the Spirit. And until your flesh is put under, there WILL be a struggle. You seem to have this idea that babies pop from the womb fully grown…

 

[Lambano]

sorry old friend, we’ll have to disagree here. OSAS is Biblical.
1 john 2:19 “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.”

And yet I must point out that the cited 1 John passage is still consistent with being able to believe without being regenerated.

Would to God that you trusted Jesus to save you as much as you trust these moldy theological constructs that tell you that you cannot and should not trust Him!

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

In that passage he says those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. That does not happen from day one. If it did, why tell men to pick up their cross and follow Him? My flesh was not put under to no longer ceaselessly torture me for…over 14 years after I’d received the Spirit. And until your flesh is put under, there WILL be a struggle. You seem to have this idea that babies pop from the womb fully grown…

im not saying theres sinless perfection, but what i am saying is that if you have a seriously habitual sin and it goes on for a while, you are not saved. Im not saying this to you personally, i dont know you, but if someone i knew had a habitual sin for 14 yrs, nah i’d call em a false convert. They hadnt been saved, yet.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

thats a new take on faith. I will give that more thought today. I guess my only question is how is it learned? What teaches us to grow faith?

The things we suffer. The verse says Jesus learned the obedience of trust/faith by the things He suffered. God does not bring the same exact sufferings to every man. He customizes each ones sufferings. But they are to GROW the mans trust in Him, to teach him to trust no matter what it looks like or how bleak it looks at times. We don’t grow our own trust/faith. We learn to be obediently trustful. We stumble in trust many times. We get stuck in dark holes of despair. We learn to say, this looks so bleak but I trust Him. It is a race of trust in Him. It’s not a race of not sinning. It’s a race of trusting.