Run AWAY from Calvinism!

[Lambano]

But…you said it referred back to Gods kindness not being from yourself, not to the faith part not being from yourself, if it had been translated correctly from Greek. This will require some ice cream I think because by your answer, I’m not sure what was originally in dispute…

God’s kindness is not the gift itself; it is God’s motivation for offering us the gift. Trust is not the gift itself; it is the means by which we accept the gift.

By all means, have some ice cream and contemplate it some more. Ice cream is another gracious gift from a loving God.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Hmm, is salvation the gift? Is that really the focus of the passage?

The gift of God is "Grace through faith" Grace and faith are both part of the same gift. It is all of God. Not of works. It is nothing we do on our own at all in any way. It is God.

And now we have circled back around to earlier this morning, where we see that we don’t have the balance based on the doctrines we’ve been taught because He expects a return on His investment and holds the man accountable if His initial deposit with the man has not grown. So clearly, all is not explained.

 

[Johann]

After all, we ALL were one of those men that didn’t have trust at some point.

If God was able to to subdue your will and win your heart, and that without interfering with your moral responsibility,then is He not able to do the same for others?
Do you say 'But the time came when I was willing, willing to receive Christ Jesus as my Savior?
True, but it was the Lord who made you willing

Psa 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The unsaved are lost because they refuse to believe, the others are saved because they believe.

It is God Himself who maketh the difference between the elect and the non-elect, for of his own it is written.... And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The unsaved are lost because they refuse to believe, the others are saved because they believe.

Lord, why was this man born blind? Is blindness just a case of refusing to see? Or does blindness require an operation from a doctor to see?

 

[Johann]

Lord, why was this man born blind? Is blindness just a case of refusing to see? Or does blindness require an operation from a doctor to see?

Attempts have been made to prove that these words do not teach predestination, but these attempts so clearly do violence to language that I shall not waste my time in answering them.
I read: As many as were ordained to eternal life believed; and I shall not twist the text but shall glorify the grace of God by ascribing to that grace the faith of every man,

Is it not God who gives the disposition to believe?

If man are disposed to have eternal life, does not He--in every case-dispose them?

Is it wrong for God to give grace?

If it be right for Him to give it, is it wrong for Him to purpose to give it?

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Spurgeon.

Good night.

 

[BarneyFife]

Well I do not know if modern Calvinism is the same as biblical Calvinism. I do not keep up with everything people say. there is not enough time in a day. I have my mentors and pastors and only veer from them to prepare for apologetics or someone asks me to look into someone.

So if modern Calvinism is vastly different from historic biblical Calvinism I would love to see the differences.

I know of no such thing as biblical Calvinism--only biblical Christianity.

Bible verses can be amassed to support the most demonic doctrines imaginable, so proof texts are not, in and of themselves, proof of God's intentions toward the human family. The preponderance of biblical evidence, rightly (spiritually discerned) divided, reveals the counsels of God. The wise will understand--the wicked will not (Daniel 12:10).

This is not to say that those who do not understand any one doctrine at any time are wholly wicked. But the distortion of God's character in the mind or heart is the cause of every sin ever committed. And error, if cherished will breed and spread perdition.

The thing I have noticed most often (and, infact, virtually always) is a tenacious insistence that God is arbitrarily sovereign, and that this aspect of His character must be considered above all else. This I cannot accept, and if its acceptance is required to be saved, I shall surely be lost. I would rather burn in hell forever than serve a God who loves evil.

Romans 9 is not the focal point of the Scriptures, and any time a portion of the Bible is preferred over others, error will surely ensue. The other texts that are used to support theological determinism would never be used the way they are if Romans 9 were not so abused.

God's vocation is Creator. And His purpose in creating is to relate—to love. The relational aspect of His character lends itself very well to synergism. Monergism would require no relationship. God wants to dwell with His people.

There can be no doubt that He is all-knowing, but the human logic that insists He thus dictates the affairs of His creatures to end in despair and desolation is madness. Madness, I say.

Once in a while, I give voice to my views on Calvinism, but I find it largely confusing and boring at the same time. For every 10 Calvinists you ask, you will get at least 11 different explanations of it and, frankly, Arminianism can be almost as bad. I mean what in the world is "unconditional atonement?" The proponents of this nonsense must not even know what atonement is. I understand and agree with some of the details of it but the label sounds like Universalism.

 

[BarneyFife]

1. A miracle you reserve for yourself and few others. You answer doesn't really deal with what I said. Which is common with Calvinists. I'm not going to let you ignore what I said. Why do you believe that another human being can't respond to what the Gospel clearly states? There are innate qualities to the Gospel. Innate power. The Gospel tells man exactly what to do. There is no guessing. Direct and Divine instruction. Why do you ignore this and expect others to not understand the clear message of the Gospel?

2. Don't deflect. Your theology teaches that all men are the same. Yet, you see yourself as being privileged in being personally purposed for salvation. To me, that a HUGE ego to believe such a thing at the expense of your fellowmen.

@stunnedbygrace

Are you gonna let him not let you ignore him like that?

 

[BarneyFife]

You insist a man must pick one of the two ditches and jump into it, so you will of course be confused when you run across a man who refuses either ditch.

Hey, that was gooood.

 

[BarneyFife]

No. I'll stay right here on solid ground above all that nonsense you require.

That sounds familiar.

 

[BarneyFife]

What say we all just chuck Calvin and Spurgeon and Wesley and even Strong and Thayer and just go with the

B-I-B-L-E

♫ Yes, that's the book for me... ♫

Just a thought

 

[BarneyFife]

Correct; it is salvation that is the gift, not faith.

?

 

[Lambano]

?

That’s what the verse says in the Greek.

I don’t think anyone would dispute that salvation is a gift from God’s grace and received by faith.

 

[PinSeeker]

PinSeeker said:
APAK, it's a heart issue and not a brain issue. :) Ezekiel gives us a crystal clear picture of how salvation works, and who does what in it:​

"Thus says the Lord GOD... 'I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses.'" (Ezekiel 36:24-29)

For any of us, once God does this, then we will not fail to respond and thus choose the Right, and freely. Until then, though, we will not fail to choose, quite freely, the... left. :) As Isaiah puts it:​

"Say to those who have an anxious heart, 'Be strong; fear not! Behold, your God will come with vengeance, with the recompense of God. He will come and save you.' Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf unstopped; then shall the lame man leap like a deer, and the tongue of the mute sing for joy." (Isaiah 35:4-6)​

We are not "free agents"... not autonomous beings. To say that we are is a form of blasphemy, really, even if not intentionally so. Only God is autonomous ~ self-governing ~ and is thus sovereign over all His creation.​

Ah, but you have gone the opposite direction of Apak. There are ditches on both sides of a road. And if it were not even possible to put your hand to the plow and turn back, it would not even be mentioned. The tangle lies in not making a distinction between righteousness and holiness.

Okay, elaborate. I think the "opposite direction" thing is a misunderstanding on your part. But yes, please elaborate.

Grace and peace to you, SBG.

 

[BarneyFife]

That’s what the verse says in the Greek.

I don’t think anyone would dispute that salvation is a gift from God’s grace and received by faith.

Why would they? I just thought that God was the Giver of all good gifts and that without Him we can do nothing. Maybe I misunderstood you.

 

[Lambano]

Why would they? I just thought that God was the Giver of all good gifts and that without Him we can do nothing. Maybe I misunderstood you.

We’re God’s creations and everything we have comes from Him. My point was that the verse doesn’t say what people think it says because the English translation doesn’t capture the sense of the Greek.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Wow........ your friend has "explain it for you"......

That is so pitiful..... Can't even help yourself.

It’s a very bad spirit you labor under. I gave you time to calm down but since you can’t speak in love I am going to cease conversation with you. Since I don’t know how to help you from this grasp, I will pray and check up on you later to see if you are better.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It’s a very bad spirit you labor under. I gave you time to calm down but since you can’t speak in love I am going to cease conversation with you. Since I don’t know how to help you from this grasp, I will pray and check up on you later to see if you are better.

I don't know the last time I had to ask a friend to explain theology for me.

I can't help but see this as a weakness for you. You can do better. We know what we want to know.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

This is a common misconception, to see trust as a “meritorious work”, to use theological-speak. But that’s not what trust is. Trust is accepting with empty hands what God offers.

trust:
noun

1. 1.
   firm belief in the reliability, truth, ability, or strength of someone or something.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Attempts have been made to prove that these words do not teach predestination, but these attempts so clearly do violence to language that I shall not waste my time in answering them.
I read: As many as were ordained to eternal life believed; and I shall not twist the text but shall glorify the grace of God by ascribing to that grace the faith of every man,

Is it not God who gives the disposition to believe?

If man are disposed to have eternal life, does not He--in every case-dispose them?

Is it wrong for God to give grace?

If it be right for Him to give it, is it wrong for Him to purpose to give it?

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Spurgeon.

Good night.

Im sorry but I literally don’t understand a word of what you’ve said here. I read it four times. Sorry. I tried.

 

[Lambano]

trust:
noun

1. 1.
   firm belief in the reliability, truth, ability, or strength of someone or something.

Good. Now apply that definition to accepting the gift God offers.