Run AWAY from Calvinism!

[stunnedbygrace]

Lol!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

There IS solid ground. But you won’t get to it by picking either/or when God has said BOTH things.

 

[praise_yeshua]

psh! There is no solid ground. There is no road that avoids the ditches. There’s only two ditches. If you insist a man has to be in one of them, what’s this talk about solid ground…?

You're the one that is stuck in ditches. Not me. I reject there are just two ditches.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You're the one that is stuck in ditches. Not me. I reject there are just two ditches.

If you reject that there are only two ditches and no road that goes between them, then why do you insist a man must choose one…?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It can be cleared up. But it requires understanding that some verses concern righteousness and some concern holiness. I could go get my friend to explain it but he is hated by a few in here and they begin shrieking when they see him.

 

[Lambano]

We are saved by the kindness of God (grace)through trust (faith) and that trust is not of ourselves, so no boasting.

I recognize the Ephesians 2:8-9 allusion, and I need to point out that the “this” (τούτο) in that verse cannot refer to “faith” (πιστις). Τούτο is a neuter pronoun, while πιστις is a feminine noun. Instead, τούτο refers to the abstract concept of “salvation by grace through faith”, which is consistent with the rules of Greek grammar.

 

[Lambano]

Without that gift, that small seed of trust, along with being able to suddenly see that God was, he would still be blind.

Does God give all men that seed of trust when they listen to AND hear the Gospel? If so, that would be consistent with Wesley’s understanding of “prevenient grace”. If not…

 

[Johann]

I recognize the Ephesians 2:9 allusion, and I need to point out that the “this” (τούτο) in that verse cannot refer to “faith” (πιστις). Τούτο is a neuter pronoun, while πιστις is a feminine noun. Instead, τούτο refers to the abstract concept of “salvation by grace through faith”, which is consistent with the rules of Greek grammar.

...and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

 

[Lambano]

...and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

Correct; it is salvation that is the gift, not faith.

 

[Lambano]

You see as faith precedes regeneration, I can show you many scriptures that is not the case.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

I thought your Ephesians quote was spot-on. I might have added Galatians 3:2 also. But I recognize there are “tensions” in the scriptures.

 

[praise_yeshua]

If you reject that there are only two ditches and no road that goes between them, then why do you insist a man must choose one…?

I never said that man must choose between ditches. That is your strawman.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It can be cleared up. But it requires understanding that some verses concern righteousness and some concern holiness. I could go get my friend to explain it but he is hated by a few in here and they begin shrieking when they see him.

Wow........ your friend has "explain it for you"......

That is so pitiful..... Can't even help yourself.

 

[reformed1689]

Another trait common with Calvinists. They laugh uncontrollably. It is a weird defense mechanism that never works for them.

Usually we laugh at the absurd comments coming from the likes of you that have nothing to do with reality.

 

[Johann]

Correct; it is salvation that is the gift, not faith.

Faith is God's gift and "all men have not faith" 2 Thess 3:2..therefore we see that God does not bestow this gift upon all.
Why?
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I don’t know anything about Greek grammar…but I do know English pretty well. Do you mean to say that in English it should read: you were saved by the kindness and mercy of God (and that kindness and mercy is not of yourself) through trust? That’s a bit confusing…

But who would get the notion that Gods kindness and mercy came from themself? Men do often, however, make the mistake of thinking their trust came from themself, which causes them to then blame blind men for being born blind and causes arrogance in them that insists they could see if they decided to.

And of course I take that back upon further reflection. I’ve run across many men who think God saved them because they think they stopped sinning. And others who think because they do sin that they are unsavable.

At any rate, if you are correct that in English it should say, you were saved by the kindness of God and that kindness of God is not of yourself, through trust, it still does not mean you yourself planted that small seed of trust that grows. Neither did you water it or cause it to grow. So you can’t beat a blind man.

Neither Gods kindness, nor my trust in God, came of myself. If I summoned trust of Him on my own, I might have reason to boast.

 

[Lambano]

Do you mean to say that in English it should read: you were saved by the kindness and mercy of God (and that kindness and mercy is not of yourself) through trust? That’s a bit confusing…

No, ma’am. It is saying that the salvation package is is a gift. And that point is not under dispute.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Faith is God's gift and "all men have not faith" 2 Thess 3:2..therefore we see that God does not bestow this gift upon all.
Why?
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Maybe…He has seen some men are not yet ready for love but knows the time will be right a few months or years from now. After all, we ALL were one of those men that didn’t have trust at some point.

 

[reformed1689]

No, ma’am. It is saying that the salvation package is is a gift. And that point is not under dispute.

Hmm, is salvation the gift? Is that really the focus of the passage?

The gift of God is "Grace through faith" Grace and faith are both part of the same gift. It is all of God. Not of works. It is nothing we do on our own at all in any way. It is God.

 

[Lambano]

If I summoned trust of Him on my own, I might have reason to boast.

This is a common misconception, to see trust as a “meritorious work”, to use theological-speak. But that’s not what trust is. Trust is accepting with empty hands what God offers.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No, ma’am. It is saying that the salvation package is is a gift. And that point is not under dispute.

But…you said it referred back to Gods kindness not being from yourself, not to the faith part not being from yourself, if it had been translated correctly from Greek. This will require some ice cream I think because by your answer, I’m not sure what was originally in dispute…