Run AWAY from Calvinism!

[reformed1689]

why would that particular doctrine bother you? Even though its truth, you choose to reject it because of your “feelings”??

Exactly, we don't believe doctrine because of feelings, we believe it because it is what God says. If you don't like it, you have a problem with God, not the doctrine.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

We are chosen of God because our hearts turned to and agreed with his Salvation Plan.

Oh, blech!
We are saved by the kindness of God (grace)through trust (faith) and that trust is not of ourselves, so no boasting. Your statement beats those it should not. It beats men born blind as if they made a choice to be born that way and those who were healed of their blindness become arrogant.

 

[reformed1689]

The good news is to "Whomsoever will" and that is good enough for me.

That's the problem though. Who will? The Bible says nobody.

 

[APAK]

Oh, blech!
We are saved by the kindness of God (grace)through trust (faith) and that trust is not of ourselves, so no boasting. Your statement beats those it should not. It beats men born blind as if they made a choice to be born that way and those who were healed of their blindness become arrogant.

I really do not know what prompted your reply here. The first sentence I agree with, nothing new here. It is the next accusatory remarks I'm confused about. My statement is not all encompassing SBG, by design. It is impractical in a short post to cover all bases. I hope you do understand the difficulty in listing all cases and nuances and exceptions.

I still do not really know what you mean by this 'blind' man statement in reference to salvation....and as If I was cold in someway ....can I get an explanation at least?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I really do not know what prompted your reply here. The first sentence I agree with, nothing new here. It is the next accusatory remarks I'm confused about. My statement is not all encompassing SBG, by design. It is impractical in a short post to cover all bases. I hope you do understand the difficulty in listing all cases and nuances and exceptions.

I still do not really know what you mean by this 'blind' man statement in reference to salvation....and as If I was cold in someway ....can I get an explanation at least?

Okay, well first, any accusatory remarks, or remarks that feel accusatory to you personally, are accusatory only as regards the…thought/opinion/doctrine that we are saved because we made a choice that saved us. We couldn’t make any choice at all unless our blindness was first cured, so no man should attribute a choice he made to his saving. The fact that he was blind one moment and the next moment he could suddenly see should do away with that. The man is not saved because he made a wise choice. He is saved by the kindness of God through trust and that trust was a gift given to him. Without that gift, that small seed of trust, along with being able to suddenly see that God was, he would still be blind. Men born blind do not make a decision to see and then suddenly see. And their seeing does not save them, their trust saves them and that trust was a gift too. So…your statement needs work because you were not saved by agreeing to a salvation plan. You were saved by trusting God and that trust was not of yourself, it was a gift.

No, I was not saying you are cold. I was saying your statement requires some more thought.

 

[APAK]

Okay, well first, any accusatory remarks, or remarks that feel accusatory to you personally, are accusatory only as regards the…thought/opinion/doctrine that we are saved because we made a choice that saved us. We couldn’t make any choice at all unless our blindness was first cured, so no man should attribute a choice he made to his saving. The fact that he was blind one moment and the next moment he could suddenly see should do away with that. The man is not saved because he made a wise choice. He is saved by the kindness of God through trust and that trust was a gift given to him. Without that gift, that small seed of trust, along with being able to suddenly see that God was, he would still be blind. Men born blind do not make a decision to see and then suddenly see. And their seeing does not save them, their trust saves them and that trust was a gift too. So…your statement needs work because you were not saved by agreeing to a salvation plan. You were saved by trusting God and that trust was not of yourself, it was a gift.

No, I was not saying you are cold. I was saying your statement requires some more thought.

Well copy that, although I was not writing a book here and for precision SBG. That's your opinion that I should have showed more detail of course. You could have cited this 'blindman' issue you have as a compliment to my post as you know....again that was your style and approach and it wouldn't be mine. But I do understand you a bit over these few years.

God knows the blindman's heart and he can be saved based on its condition alone with the God-given grace to have the power of trust, his opportunity to decide, take, and use for his salvation. I completely agree again with you. Not everyone has the opportunity to hear even an abridged version of the gospel in order to be saved...

Thanks for your comment..

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Well copy that, although I was not writing a book here and for precision SBG. That's your opinion that I should have showed more detail of course. You could have cited this 'blindman' issue you have as a compliment to my post as you know....again that was your style and approach and it wouldn't be mine. But I do understand you a bit over these few years.

God knows the blindman's heart and he can be saved based on its condition alone with the God-given grace to have the power of trust, his opportunity to decide, take, and use for his salvation. I completely agree again with you. Not everyone has the opportunity to hear even an abridged version of the gospel in order to be saved...

Thanks for your comment..

well there you go again - “his opportunity to decide.” Since it’s my favorite thing in the whole wide world to have a day to talk with you guys and pick your brains, I want to ask, decide what? The opportunity to decide what?

 

[PinSeeker]

APAK, it's a heart issue and not a brain issue. :) Ezekiel gives us a crystal clear picture of how salvation works, and who does what in it:

"Thus says the Lord GOD... 'I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses.'" (Ezekiel 36:24-29)

For any of us, once God does this, then we will not fail to respond and thus choose the Right, and freely. Until then, though, we will not fail to choose, quite freely, the... left. :) As Isaiah puts it:

"Say to those who have an anxious heart, 'Be strong; fear not! Behold, your God will come with vengeance, with the recompense of God. He will come and save you.' Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf unstopped; then shall the lame man leap like a deer, and the tongue of the mute sing for joy." (Isaiah 35:4-6)

We are not "free agents"... not autonomous beings. To say that we are is a form of blasphemy, really, even if not intentionally so. Only God is autonomous ~ self-governing ~ and is thus sovereign over all His creation.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[APAK]

APAK, it's a heart issue and not a brain issue. :) Ezekiel gives us a crystal clear picture of how salvation works, and who does what in it:

"Thus says the Lord GOD... 'I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses.'" (Ezekiel 36:24-29)

For any of us, once God does this, then we will not fail to respond and thus choose the Right, and freely. Until then, though, we will not fail to choose, quite freely, the... left. :) We are not "free agents"... not autonomous beings. To say that we are is a form of blasphemy, really, even if not intentionally so. Only God is autonomous ~ self-governing ~ and is thus sovereign over all His creation.

Grace and peace to you.

Preaching to the choir if you read some of my posts already. did you? Although you are not hinting a bit towards Universalism to salvation for every soul?

 

[APAK]

well there you go again - “his opportunity to decide.” Since it’s my favorite thing in the whole wide world to have a day to talk with you guys and pick your brains, I want to ask, decide what? The opportunity to decide what?

Well what is on your mind I have time to listen. Whether I agree with you or you with me is nothing new and should not be astounding. I will listen...

There are decisions we make in our lives everyday that are really limited, and many and then there is the spiritual decision that is quite different, that truly comes form the heart. It is not made all at one time in one space. It is not made independently without God's presence and influence. It is a unique decision where we bend our will to God with a contrite heart. And it usually does not occur overnight..imo. Truly evil folk will not make this right choice with God, and humble themselves to him.. I do not believe in a Universal blanket salvation for all mankind.

 

[PinSeeker]

Preaching to the choir if you read some of my posts already.

Well, I don't think so, if both I and Stunned by Grace are reading you correctly, that our choice is what prompts God to save us.

Although you are not hinting a bit towards Universalism to salvation for every soul?

Not at all. I'll put it this way: The invitation is universal, and in the sense that Christ's atonement is sufficient for any number of folks to be covered by it. So eligibility is universal. But who God purposes to save ~ who He gives mercy and compassion to ~ is not. His elect consists of a number of people less than the whole of his creation, and thus not universal.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

APAK, it's a heart issue and not a brain issue. :) Ezekiel gives us a crystal clear picture of how salvation works, and who does what in it:

"Thus says the Lord GOD... 'I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses.'" (Ezekiel 36:24-29)

For any of us, once God does this, then we will not fail to respond and thus choose the Right, and freely. Until then, though, we will not fail to choose, quite freely, the... left. :) As Isaiah puts it:

"Say to those who have an anxious heart, 'Be strong; fear not! Behold, your God will come with vengeance, with the recompense of God. He will come and save you.' Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf unstopped; then shall the lame man leap like a deer, and the tongue of the mute sing for joy." (Isaiah 35:4-6)

We are not "free agents"... not autonomous beings. To say that we are is a form of blasphemy, really, even if not intentionally so. Only God is autonomous ~ self-governing ~ and is thus sovereign over all His creation.

Grace and peace to you.

Ah, but you have gone the opposite direction of Apak. There are ditches on both sides of a road. And if it were not even possible to put your hand to the plow and turn back, it would not even be mentioned. The tangle lies in not making a distinction between righteousness and holiness.

 

[APAK]

Well, I don't think so, if both I and Stunned by Grace are reading you correctly, that our choice is what prompts God to save us.


Not at all. I'll put it this way: The invitation is universal, and in the sense that Christ's atonement is sufficient for any number of folks to be covered by it. So eligibility is universal. But who God purposes to save ~ who He gives mercy and compassion to ~ is not. His elect consists of a number of people less than the whole of his creation, and thus not universal.

Grace and peace to you.

God is prompted by our choice in our lives. The rub is what is meant by this decision or the will of man.

You might get a clearer view of my thoughts by reading my previous post to 1st Century Lady.

see Run AWAY from Calvinism!

I really do not like the words 'our choice' as it is in God's domain and not ours. It is a type of spiritual decision nonetheless, that he established and forms with in us. We have no choice in the matter.

The cornerstone of his plan of Salvation is his grace and saving faith/trust to become saved because of his Son. There are terms and conditions associated with these gifts however and many forget.
It is a heart decision and not a a common human daily decision at all.

It is because of God's foreknowledge and thus predestination that he chooses/already chose to save us. He has already seen our 'decision' for his Son as he gave grace and then saving faith and part of his spirit as part of his salvation plan to complete and seal this decision. And thus he already knows who he has chosen based on this foreknowledge at the beginning of time, of our future actions and lifestyles. He chose based on our obedience to his conditions and terms he placed on his gift of salvation via his grace and faith.

God is out of the realm of time and does not wait (time constraint) to see our decision (that is made over many years in most cases) made in our human time frame conditioning. I think this is where and why the discussion goes sideways. It can be a difficult subject to grasp if we only think human-time-space centric and not God centric. God does not prompt to save based on a human decision in their time and choosing. It's like thinking that God is say to a person today, hurry up and decide so I to get all the numbers in for 2022 on time and make a tally of souls for Christ. That would be silly.

He already decided from seeing all the human race in action before time. He already ran the human trials zillions of times and the results were the same. His choosing is simple for him then...who is man as to be compared to God I say...nought of course.

 

[praise_yeshua]

well there you go again - “his opportunity to decide.” Since it’s my favorite thing in the whole wide world to have a day to talk with you guys and pick your brains, I want to ask, decide what? The opportunity to decide what?

1. You're ignoring the innate power and information contained in the preaching of the Gospel.

2. Do you enjoy the ego required to see yourself privilege ABOVE those just like you?

 

[praise_yeshua]

God is out of the realm of time and does not wait (time constraint) to see our decision

Another common mistake.... God isn't outside of "time". God brings order to chaos. The absence of time is chaos.

Eternity/Eternal things are things with endless/neverending time.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

1. You're ignoring the innate power and information contained in the preaching of the Gospel.

2. Do you enjoy the ego required to see yourself privilege ABOVE those just like you?

1. No, I’m not. Every new birth from above is a miracle.
2. That sense of privilege is what I wrestle against with Christianity. It is the exact opposite of humility and fear of God. So you made a very rash and faulty judgement about me.

 

[praise_yeshua]

1. No, I’m not. Every new birth from above is a miracle.
2. That sense of privilege is what I wrestle against with Christianity. It is the exact opposite of humility and fear of God. So you made a very rash and faulty judgement about me.

1. A miracle you reserve for yourself and few others. You answer doesn't really deal with what I said. Which is common with Calvinists. I'm not going to let you ignore what I said. Why do you believe that another human being can't respond to what the Gospel clearly states? There are innate qualities to the Gospel. Innate power. The Gospel tells man exactly what to do. There is no guessing. Direct and Divine instruction. Why do you ignore this and expect others to not understand the clear message of the Gospel?

2. Don't deflect. Your theology teaches that all men are the same. Yet, you see yourself as being privileged in being personally purposed for salvation. To me, that a HUGE ego to believe such a thing at the expense of your fellowmen.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The absence of time is chaos.

So…eternity, (being timeless as it is) - forever, is…chaos?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

1. A miracle you reserve for yourself and few others. You answer doesn't really deal with what I said. Which is common with Calvinists. I'm not going to let you ignore what I said. Why do you believe that another human being can't respond to what the Gospel clearly states? There are innate qualities to the Gospel. Innate power. The Gospel tells man exactly what to do. There is no guessing. Direct and Divine instruction. Why do you ignore this and expect others to not understand the clear message of the Gospel?

2. Don't deflect. Your theology teaches that all men are the same. Yet, you see yourself as being privileged in being personally purposed for salvation. To me, that a HUGE ego to believe such a thing at the expense of your fellowmen.

You have made me laugh uproariously…

 

[praise_yeshua]

So…eternity, (being timeless as it is) - forever, is…chaos?

Your dishonesty is clear in your "selective" quote of what I said. I explained what I said. Read what I said again.....

Eternity is not the absence of time. It is never ending time.