Run AWAY from Calvinism!

[Ronald Nolette]

No need to Ronald
J.

Okay!

T total depravity

Isaiah 1:6
From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Romans 3:10-12
King James Version

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

total depravity does not mean man is as bad as they can be, but that all are as bad off as they can be! All are lost until saved!


U = Unconditional Election

This simply means man has to do nothing in order to come to Christ - no clean up their act, reform their lives etc. Likek the old Billy Graham song: "Just as I am". All one has to do to be saved is believe!

Romans 10:9-13
King James Version

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:18
King James Version

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36
King James Version

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:4
King James Version

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Romans 9:10-16
King James Version

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


L = Limited Atonement

this is the most controversial of the points. It even confuses those who believe in it. The reasons being are these:

Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world! Propitiation means an acceptable sacrifice. Jesus however is not the atonement of the sins of the world! Atonement means a restoration/exchange/return to favor from a disfavorable position!

So while Jesus is the acceptable sacrifice for all mankinds sins, only the elect (saved) receive the atonement or the return to being sons of God! We do this by faith.

JOhn 3:16-18
JOhn 3:36 and all teh verses that sahow saved (atoned) and unsaved( those not atoned)

I will address I and P later. If I delay would you lease remind me. Feel free to discuss any of these.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No need to Ronald
J.

Well my bad. I posted Scriptures because I thought your post read You need to!

so even if the Word of God proves your current thoughts wrong, you do not want to know?

 

[Lambano]

What's the problem Lambano? Am I too boorish, uncouth in my speech?
Not refined and polished as you are?
J.

Not at all.

I wish that you would bear with me in a little foolishness; but indeed you are bearing with me. (2 Corinthians 11:1)

Now do you understand?

If scripture is what you require for me to know you, being able to suffer a little foolishness is necessary to tolerate me. If you decide it’s not worth your time to do so, I understand.

 

[Johann]

Not at all.

I wish that you would bear with me in a little foolishness; but indeed you are bearing with me. (2 Corinthians 11:1)

Now do you understand?

If scripture is what you require for me to know you, being able to suffer a little foolishness is necessary to tolerate me. If you decide it’s not worth your time to do so, I understand.

Yes, I understand Lambano.
God bless
J.

 

[Lambano]

Yes, I understand Lambano.
God bless
J.

Thank you for your ἀνοχή and μακροθυμία.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Then he says Calvinists believe that God regenerated or makes them alive to know him. And I also agree with this idea with reservations.

The thing about Calvinism in this point is they say God has chosen one person against another, (which is heinously not true and a twisting of interpretation) when all any person has to do is HEAR the gospel. That could be by parents (good parents) taking their child to Sunday School. Or a friend asking a friend to church. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

 

[amadeus]

...
Have you ever seen a debate that solved anything?

Hello brother...
I will answer that question that with a, yes, even though it may be an uncommon thing, that yes. God can and does use even debates as a vehicle for Him to provide a solution, but we should not count on it. People very often, it seems to me, bang their heads against the wall in their lengthy debates and end up only with sore heads.

What is the best way to find God's will so as to then follow it carefully?

 

[Johann]

Thank you for your ἀνοχή and μακροθυμία.

Lol! Good ol' geeky I'll do my best to be much more tolerant and understanding brother, but I also understand that most here have me on "ignore" (understandably)
I can still remember about 30 years ago when someone blessed me with a Strong's concordance..I was in tears man and since that time I am unstoppable in studying the scriptures.
The more I think I know the less I know...you understand what I am saying here?
Shalom LaCheim to you and family.
J.

 

[Johann]

What is the best way to find God's will so as to then follow it carefully?

Joh_13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.


Rom_13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom_13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom_13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Rom_15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

1Co_2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Something I am struggling with Amadeus..

You might have a different scripture in mind to the person you've ask the question but to let you know, agapao is not yet perfected in me, toward my brother, neighbor, enemy or my heavenly Father.
J.

 

[amadeus]

Joh_13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.


Rom_13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom_13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom_13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Rom_15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

1Co_2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Something I am struggling with Amadeus..

You might have a different scripture in mind to the person you've ask the question but to let you know, agapao is not yet perfected in me, toward my brother, neighbor, enemy or my heavenly Father.
J.

Your verses work very well. You pursue them... trying to follow and understand them. Also talk to God asking Him to help to show you and lead you. Specific answers to specific questions for me rarely come when I ask them. Rather I often receive answers to questions I did not ask [at least not in that moment], but to which I did need the answers.

Consider the following verse, but do not study simply to obtain a definite answer, but as it says, "to show thyself approved unto God":
"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." II Tim 2:15

You may find answers while studying, but obedience is the thing. God said to do it to be approved, NOT to find answers!

The answers come to us through the teacher:

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

We should not be telling the teacher what to teach us. We should rather be paying attention and receiving or learning whatever He is saying or has said to us. Remember: He is to be leading us!

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." Rom 8:14

 

[BarneyFife]

Hello brother...
I will answer that question that with a, yes, even though it may be an uncommon thing, that yes. God can and does use even debates as a vehicle for Him to provide a solution, but we should not count on it...

Hey, It's not like I was stating it as an Absolute Truth. GOTCHA!

 

[Lambano]

Shalom LaCheim to you and family.

And a peaceful life to you and your loved ones also.

 

[APAK]

The thing about Calvinism in this point is they say God has chosen one person against another, (which is heinously not true and a twisting of interpretation) when all any person has to do is HEAR the gospel. That could be by parents (good parents) taking their child to Sunday School. Or a friend asking a friend to church. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

1C Lady hello again...

Well I do not know that much of the doctrines of Calvinism and its versions and changes over time. I expect that I'm not unusual and not the only one in this boat.

I do not believe God chooses a person for salvation over another, and I think that would be quite shallow of John Calvin. I do not think he preached that all. He must have been misrepresented or misunderstood many years ago. And now the lie has become grounded as a 'fact.'

Now you interjected another side but related topic that suggests 'only by hearing' the gospel one will gain faith to salvation. I may have misinterpreted you however. I will leave that until later. I hope you really do not believe what you wrote if this is true of you...reality says it does not work that way at all. I can see why you might be non-Calvinistic, just on this 'bad' notion or interpretation alone.

Back to the predestination and foreknowledge concept that is scriptural indeed although most people cannot understand it because they only use a human view; and then they typically pounce on a Calvinist to condemn them for heresy once its raised as a topic. I find it amusing every time ist comes up, like here again.

Again, predestination by God is a REALITY, it is not and never a reality or experienced by a human being.
Foreknowledge by God is a REALITY, it is not a reality or experienced by a human being.

God set his plan of salvation into motion under his grace(s) using his Son that he planned, before time existed (that far back imo).

God is not limited to a time phase/shift concept or of dimensions, that he created himself!!!

God gave us a limited will to choose and decide for ourselves and it isn't free to choose lots of things, as many love to tout and trumpet. It is very limited in fact in the big scheme of things. We were made human with limited will/choosing capabilities.

So the salvation plan is still running in time, for us, from our viewpoint. From God's view it was completed already. He already knows who will accept his plan of salvation or not before anyone was born.

God has made his presence to people in every generation making them aware of his presence in their heart and mind, and the need for salvation, to either accept his plan of salvation or not. He would love everyone to accept it as scripture says. Reality says that will never happen. God provided his presence to people, indeed. He prefers the gospel message be heard as he nudges the heart to accept his Son and him for salvation. Sometimes there is no time or the environment is not conducive for a gospel message to be heard at that time, and still people can be saved as he looks into their hearts...he judges the condition of their heart..he knows that they will yield their will over to him and his Son and be saved.

So when God brings his presence to a candidate person for salvation, it can take many forms and by various influence and of different frequencies or times in a person's life. And most importantly, independent of ones path or style of living, parent set, friends characteristics, events that occur in ones life. MOST people have an opportunity to accept God's salvation plan or NOT.

They choose themselves to accept God's salvation plan. God does not choose or force the issue for them in the final decisive equation, to turn over their will and trust him. And if they do become humble with a contrite heart, at that point only as God only knows, he gives them the gift of saving faith to become converted or regenerated with his type of his Spirit. We can never muster faith to salvation let alone maintain it afterwards. This is God's spiritual domain, this salvation of mankind.

God therefore has foreknowledge and therefore pre-destines people as his elect. He ran the salvation program 'simulation' millions of times already, as a poor analogy, and the results were always the same, over OUR time - he is outside of the restraints of time and never has to run any 'human' trials. So if one wants to say this is really God choosing one person over another, then go ahead, it just shows sheer ignorance and not understanding specific pertinent scripture.

He does not discriminate and divide people because he likes this person over that one, to be saved. That is a ludicrous idea.

Bless you 1C Lady

As a footnote: If we choose the salvation plan, under God's influence and presence, and we do in the end, then God chose us, because we made the final decision. If you truly understand this statement, then you really understand what I wrote above. You dig it!

 

[BarneyFife]

Hello brother...
I will answer that question that with a, yes, even though it may be an uncommon thing, that yes. God can and does use even debates as a vehicle for Him to provide a solution, but we should not count on it...

Hey, It's not like I was stating it as an Absolute Truth. GOTCHA!
The first time around was a typo. Stupid Autocorrect

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I do not believe God chooses a person for salvation over another, and I think that would be quite shallow of John Calvin. I do not think he preached that all. He must have been misrepresented or misunderstood many years ago. And now the lie has become grounded as a 'fact.'

It depends on who thought up T.U.L.I.P., because the "L" is limited atonement - that Jesus only died for the chosen elect.

 

[Lambano]

And the foolishness thereof.

nope, not what I meant. :)

Young lady, my former co-worker (long retired now) had a day-at-a-time calendar with little gems about the joys of aging. One of them was this:

Sometimes, with old age comes wisdom. Sometimes, old age shows up alone.

My favorite was this:

Going to the bathroom more; enjoying it less.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

trust: i absolutely trust God as judge to be fair and just. And thats why He’s so scary. He’s perfect, im not.
Hope: i hope to not goto hell.
Love: yea, i got nothing.

But that is the whole point - your last sentence. You didn’t see that on your own. No Christian finally sees that on their own. Rather they often think they are rich and in need of nothing. So…you have seen the whole point.
There is only one question, what do you do about what you see you lack…?

 

[APAK]

whew, a lot of misunderstanding of calvinism here. Yes, God has indeed chosen Himself who He will and will not save. The absolute majority of mankind will end up in hell. God’s choosing had nothing to do with what anyone did or didnt do. It was grace and grace alone. Where a lot of people mess the doctrine of election up at is the point of choosing. You have some people who say well God can see all of time and who He picked, was done because He saw that they would indeed have faith, and that is wrong because that still would account for what someone did.
God chose by His own accord, and as paul said in romans 9, we dont get a say in what He does with us. We are the mud, He is the potter.

to you LS and @1stCenturyLady ..trying to answer her post in this one too.

We are chosen of God because our hearts turned to and agreed with his Salvation Plan. Those that accepted are then chosen by God of course. He would not choose someone that does not want him. And because of this scriptural congruence, there results in only a limited atonement 'L' in TULIP from God's perspective as he saw all this coming before we got on the racetrack in life. From our perspective and Paul's in scripture then, the Salvation plan incorporates an unlimited atonement for salvation. It is this limited in the end because many hearts do not turn to God via his Son. It DEPENDS then on ones perspective on the matter. They are both right if we keep each in context of the proper view.

Blessings to both of you.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

and that is wrong because that still would account for what someone did.

We will be judged by what we did with whatever we were given. He expects a return on the seed of trust He plants. Where men have led you wrong is in thinking that those given less will be judged more strenuously than those given more. It is definitely not what it says. Men get everything exactly the opposite of what God says and they make happy those they shouldn’t and they make sad those who God does not want to be sad.

 

[reformed1689]

The doctrine of election.

Just curious, why is that unsettling to you?