Romans 13 and Governing Authorities

[Jericho]

I've heard an argument this morning by a YouTuber that Romans 13:1–7 is not about obeying government authorities, and a lot of it seems dependent on which translation one is reading. For instance, many translations say "governing authrorities," while other translations, like the KJV, use the term "higher powers." In Romans 13:7, most translations say, "Render taxes to whom taxes are due," while the KJV uses the word "tribute" instead of taxes. She touts the KJV as the "correct" translation.

The argument given is that the rulers are defined in Romans 13:4 as God's minister or servant, which implies religious rather than governmental authority. Moses is given as an example of God's minister ruling over his people. She implies that the words in other translations were changed to control the people (paraphrasing). She goes on to give examples of Jesus and the disciples disobeying the governing authorities. She basically sums it up by saying we shouldn't submit to governing authorities because they are either oppressive or morally corrupt governments, sanctioning abortion, for example. You can watch her video here.

Okay, so let's dissect this. There's two things that can help us: looking at the original Greek and how it's used and the overall context.

Higher (hyperechō): "higher," "better," "excellency," "pass," "supreme."
Powers (exousia): "power," "authrority," "right," "liberty," "jurisdiction," "strength."

Together they indicate a higher authrority but makes no distinction what type of authority it is. So, we have to rely on the context, and I really think it's dependent on how "phoros" (taxes or tribute) is used.

Phoros: tribute, esp. the annual tax levied upon houses, lands, and persons

The bibical usage would indicate that "taxes" is a proper translation. This is confirmed in Luke 20:22 when the religious leaders asked Jesus, "Is it lawful for us to give tribute (phoros) unto Caesar, or no?" Tribuate clearly meant taxes. And since we don't pay tribute (or taxes) to our religious leaders, Romans 13:1 only makes sense in the context of government authorities.

The next is the issue of rulers being "ministers of God" in Romans 13:4. Are religious leaders ministers of God? Yes. But are they ever referred to as rulers? No, with maybe the exception of Moses (more on him next). Certainly not in the New Testament, except, of course, when Jesus rules and reigns. But can governing authorities be ministers or servants of God (depending on how it's translated)? Calling them ministers or decons doesn't fit, but they could be servants of God if they are godly governments or doing the will of God. Cyrus the Great was the governing authority of his day, and Isaiah 45:1 called him "annointed" because he did God's will. In that respect, he was a servant of God.

As far as Moses goes, he was unique in being a religious leader but also ruiling over his people in a governing capacity. But this was only for a limited time. Eventually, Moses delegated the religious duties to his brother Aaron and turned over much of the governing duties to the elders of Israel. His role after that became more as a judge presiding over cases.

To her last point about not obeying government and citing Jesus and the apostles as examples, I can partially agree. In general, we should obey the governing authorities (that is, if we don't want to go to jail for not paying our taxes). Jesus acknowledged as much when he said, "“Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” (Luk 20:25). Paul, who wrote Romans, told the believers in Crete to be submissive to rulers and authorities (Titus 3:1).

The caviet is not obeying the governing authorities if it goes against God's word. In such cases, it's better to obey God than men (Acts 529). There are righetous and unrighetous acts of rebellion. Lucifer rebelling against God was an unrighetous act of rebellion. Jesus and the apostles rebelling against the governing authorities while doing God's will was a righteous rebellion. The determining factor is if the actions of the governing authorities are just or not. Just governments are defined as a terror to evil, not to good (Rom 13:3). That is a distinction that she fails to make, though her heart seems in the right place.

 

[doctrox]

Okay, so let's dissect this. There's two things that can help us: looking at the original Greek and how it's used and the overall context.

The Lord couldn't care less about some "original language," so neither should we.

It's never been about any "translation" per se. But if wannabe scholars could shift their burden from God's "inspired," "pure" and "preserved" word to man's mere intellect, then they could proceed to build their ivory towers.

The next is the issue of rulers being "ministers of God" in Romans 13:4. Are religious leaders ministers of God? Yes.

Not necessarily.

Romans 13 was a favorite passage of Adolph Hitler's, used to justify his brand of submission.

There's only one Lawgiver, and the government is on his shoulders. And this would be GODLY government - not the counterfeit most ignorantly insist we should serve today.

Many stumble with the reality that there is a counterfeit “authority” seeking our obeisance. Satan said, “I will be like the most High” (Isaiah 14:14).

It is Satan’s “higher power” that is behind the merchants, the rich men of the earth, the present temporal “governing authorities."

In reply to the blind opinion that all kings, princes, and governments are set up and "ordained" by God, we will quote the following passage, which is spoken into the ears of Hosea by God Almighty himself. We pray that those who have eyes to see and ears to hear will no longer engage in such opinions:

They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not. (Hos 8:4)

Also,

Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. (Psa 2:1-3)

There's no Godly ordination there.

When scripture speaks of obeying and submitting ourselves to those who have the rule over us, God’s word is not talking about heathen governments, but those "rulers" within Jesus Christ's assembly. Notice carefully this verse says these rulers (i.e. “them that have the rule over you”) "watch for your souls" (Heb. 13:17). Governments of men cannot govern or watch for anyone's souls, for they can only govern outward acts, not the inward being. But true spiritual leaders do watch for our souls.

Those who "have the rule over you" at Hebrews 13:17 is specifically defined a few verses earlier in Hebrews 13:7, "Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation

As we can see, scripture itself defines these "rulers" as those who speak the word of God and have faith. Conversely, secular governments avoid, and often forbid, speaking the word of God within their system through outlawing prayer in their schools and replacing it with such unrighteousness as "the theory of evolution," and by taking down the "Ten Commandments" from their courtrooms. These are not the rulers we are to submit to.

In Romans 13, does verse 1 say, ‘let every soul be subject unto all governments’? Or does it say, "let every soul (including governing authorities such as kings, judges, police, etc.) be subject unto the higher powers"? Who do souls belong to? God says:

Ezekiel 18:4, "Behold, all souls are mine."

And the second part of verse 1 tells us who “the higher powers” is: "...For there is no power but of God".

The souls of the governmental powers belong to God, and they are not the higher powers, the higher powers are held by Christ himself (Matthew 28:18). Is our Lord not the higher power, then, if all power has been committed unto him (John 17:2)? Christ is the governor among the nations (Psalms 22:28). All power over earthly kings has been given unto him (Romans 14:9). All judgment has been given unto him (John 5:22, 27). Notice the separation of power in Romans 13:1. All power comes from, and belongs to, God (Psalm 62:11) and not the one exercising it. And remember that most men, especially those constituting the "governing authorities," usually deny that power given to Jesus (2 Timothy 3:2, 5):

“For men shall be...Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

In general, we should obey the governing authorities (that is, if we don't want to go to jail for not paying our taxes).

For those who are in obedience to the wrong authority, one sin will always lead to another. So those who have bound themselves to follow such an ungodly authority would, of course, be bound to its next imposition e.g. "taxes."

God never commanded people to obey the kings of Israel when those kings turned their backs on him. Our Father put those people into captivity for their disobedience towards him! And he does the same today. The Nazi's at Nuremberg said, "Well, I was just doing my job. I was obeying the government." It's an error to believe that whatever the State says is okay "because it's ordained of God." For those who are true followers of Christ Jesus, the government is on his shoulders (Isaiah 9:6), He is the King of kings, and the government is the Kingdom of God. It's a government of peace and the only government that will not end:

Isaiah 9:7, "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end,"

All man-made governments come to an end, so they are obviously not the "higher power." We have to obey the government that's always been here and always will be here.

The caviet is not obeying the governing authorities if it goes against God's word.

This view is utterly unscriptural. It's a cop-out.

 

[Berean]

“Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities.”

Everything that follows is expansion on this clear statement. Paul is not implying QUALITY in the governments. Nor is he admonishing anything more than obedience to established laws. Paul, like Peter in Acts 4:18, 19, and 5:28, 29, would be among the first to prioritize the hierarchy of God’s law over man’s. But that is not his subject here. His subject is the attainment of that sanctified state of mind that allows us to live righteously under current governments, showing RESPECT FOR ORDER. Peter has a very fine parallel passage in I Peter 2:13-23 which includes a few remarks about the acceptance of injustices toward us. Paul uses the same kind of reasoning when he admonishes slaves to be good slaves. It is not that Paul condones slavery! It is that he recognizes it as a fact. He is saying, deal with the facts. Only in the Kingdom will there be a change of facts. These verses are not about APPROVING; they are about SUBMITTING.

When Paul says, “For there is no authority except from God,” he is echoing Jesus’ statement to Pilate in John 19:11. God did put Rome in place. He even PROPHESIED it in Daniel. Jesus doesn’t deny Pilate’s authority! He confirms it. The ransom even depended on it! Paul continues that “...those which exist are established by God.” It IS a part of God’s plan, prior to His Kingdom, to set in place such rulers and
governments as will FURTHER His purposes and maintain some sort of order until the Peaceable Kingdom. Their quality is not our concern.

 

[MatthewG]

It’s good for people to read the Bible, and gather evidence for themselves to see what is true. We should respect and even pray for governing authorities.

Like supervisors, law enforcement, presidents. So we can live in peace and dignity towards Yahavah in godliness. Devotion to Him!

 

[Jack]

It’s good for people to read the Bible, and gather evidence for themselves to see what is true. We should respect and even pray for governing authorities.

Like supervisors, law enforcement, presidents. So we can live in peace and dignity towards Yahavah in godliness. Devotion to Him!

What's a Yahavah? I don't think you know, OBVIOUSLY.

 

[MatthewG]

I urge you, first of all, to pray for all people. Ask God to help them; intercede on their behalf, and give thanks for them.

 

[Jack]

I urge you, first of all, to pray for all people. Ask God to help them; intercede on their behalf, and give thanks for them.

Which translation is that Matt?

 

[Berean]

What's a Yahavah? I don't think you know, OBVIOUSLY.

It's just one of the translations of the tetragrammaton YHVH/YHWH

 

[doctrox]

“Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities.”

lol God is no respecter of persons.

Rather, if you expect to be taken seriously by anyone, you'll need to quote scripture (I posted more than a dozen).

In this case, I'll do it for you:

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers.

For the remaining 90 viewers of this thread, I will continue with the biblical truth of the matter.

This is about Godly authority versus ungodly authority; righteous government versus unrighteous government.

In Romans 13:1-4 KJV we read: "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

These words have been widely interpreted to simply mean all believers should obey the government because government has been ordained of God. This particular view is a gross distortion of the truth. In this context, I've found that when a superficial reading of a certain text somehow doesn't seem logical, it's useful to look at the actions of the writer to see if his life and actions are consistent with your interpretation of his teaching. In short, when Paul writes that "they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation," but the book of Acts shows Paul repeatedly doing just that, there must be something wrong with our understanding of the text. And that's precisely what we see throughout the New Testament.

It is noteworthy that modern copyrighted “versions” of The Holy Bible have changed the phrase “higher powers” to merely “governing authorities,” thereby obscuring the necessary distinction between Godly authority and ungodly authority, between God’s kingdom and Satan’s kingdom.

When Paul writes in the opening statement of Romans chapter 13, "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers," the obvious question is who or what are the higher powers? This phrase would have to apply to any higher powers, be they spiritual or earthly. Obviously, in the spiritual realm, there are good and bad powers. On one side we have the Lord and his great angelic host. In the other group, we find Lucifer and "the angels which kept not their first estate" (Jude 1:6). This fallen host most certainly qualifies as a "higher power," for Satan is referred to as the "prince of the power of the air" (Ephesians 2:2). Later in that same book, Paul tells us "We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" (Ephesians 6:12).

Common sense tells you that Paul is not telling us to be "subject to" the Satanic higher powers in the spiritual realm, so why do we assume he is telling us to be subject to evil earthly powers? How could it be scriptural for us to cooperate with the earthly agency of that spiritual wickedness? The next verse says "Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation." If we resist the evil in the spiritual realm, it's clear we don't receive damnation as a result! How then, could this verse mean if we resist evil in the earthly realm we receive damnation? In other words, in cases where the evil is vested in government, the idea that we are no longer to resist this evil is ludicrous.

Paul is telling us we must not resist the righteous power of God - whether it is manifested in the heavenlies or in various earthly sectors - including righteous government.

When Pilate and Herod give Jesus an order to speak, Christ resists their orders and remains silent (Matthew 27:13, Luke 23:7). When Paul has been beaten illegally by evil men within the Roman government, he refuses their command to come out of the jail and defiantly says "...let them come themselves and fetch us out." (Acts 16:37). That's not resisting?

When Peter is assisted in a jail-break by an angel, how is that obeying the government? (Acts 12:7). Did the Apostle "receive damnation" because he didn't ask the evil rulers 'Can I go now?' The writer of Hebrews tells his readers "ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin" (Hebrews 12:4). That firmly implies the Christians were appropriately resisting the evil, but every instance of that resistance ending in bloodshed occurs at the hands of the authorities. Whom were they resisting? The Evil Authority.

When Stephen was murdered, it was the religious leadership of the Jews that "set up false witnesses" to justify their unlawful crime. They even brought him before the high priest who was in agreement with the heinous killing of the young Christian (Acts 6:13, 7:1, 15). When criminal elements have a position of control and authority within the government, believers have an obligation to resist them--not to twist the scriptures into justification for compliance with an ungodly government. In Damascus, the Jews that had authority under the governmental edict establishing their position (John 11:48) sought to murder Saul (Acts 9:23). Saul escaped over the wall as he left Damascus. That sounds like resistance to me.

 

[Jericho]

The Lord couldn't care less about some "original language," so neither should we.

Sure, we should. Understanding what those original words mean can provide us with better insights and context for what the scripture is conveying. Otherwise, we’re dependent on what the translations say they mean, which isn’t always precise.

Romans 13 was a favorite passage of Adolph Hitler's, used to justify his brand of submission.

Any scripture can be twisted. Romans 13 says, "Rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil,” thereby making a distinction between just and unjust governing authorities. The Nazi regime was not a Romans 13 just government.

It is Satan’s “higher power” that is behind the merchants, the rich men of the earth, the present temporal “governing authorities."

Satan may be in the business of raising up rulers, but that does not mean every government is satanic or ungodly. God is also in the business of raising up rulers:

Dan 2:21 He controls the course of world events; he removes kings and sets up other kings. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the scholars.

Isaiah referred to King Cyrus as God’s anointed (Isa 45:1). Cyrus was a gentile ruler and no saint, but he was still used by God in a good way.

When scripture speaks of obeying and submitting ourselves to those who have the rule over us, God’s word is not talking about heathen governments, but those "rulers" within Jesus Christ's assembly. Notice carefully this verse says these rulers (i.e. “them that have the rule over you”) "watch for your souls" (Heb. 13:17).

I would never define Christ’s assembly as “rulers.” I certainly wouldn’t consider my pastor the ruler over me. Hebrews 13 is speaking to a specific audience, Christian believers. It is how we should conduct ourselves within the Christian community and how we should defer to our spiritual leaders. It does not extend or apply to governing authorities outside of the church. I would note that many translations don’t frame our spiritual leaders as rulers but only exhort us to remember our leaders:


Heb 13:17 Remember your leaders who taught you the word of God. Think of all the good that has come from their lives, and follow the example of their faith. (NLT)

Governments of men cannot govern or watch for anyone's souls, for they can only govern outward acts, not the inward being. But true spiritual leaders do watch for our souls.

I can agree, which is why I believe Hebrews 13:17 is directed toward spiritual authorities, not governing authorities; there is a difference. As I noted previously, Moses separated the two. He turned the spiritual authority over to Aaron and the governing authority over to the elders of Israel. That is a healthy separation between church and state.

God never commanded people to obey the kings of Israel when those kings turned their backs on him. Our Father put those people into captivity for their disobedience towards him! And he does the same today. The Nazi's at Nuremberg said, "Well, I was just doing my job. I was obeying the government." It's an error to believe that whatever the State says is okay "because it's ordained of God."

To be clear, I’m not suggesting we blindly follow authority. The distinction has already been made between just and unjust rulers. We obey government when it’s just and obey God when it’s not. When the apostles were unjustly imprisoned, they were following God’s will. That’s when it's more appropriate to follow God than men. There are other examples too:

Mosses mother defied the Pharaoh's command to kill all Hebrew babies (Exodus 1:15-21).
Mosses defied Pharaoh to free his people.
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego refused to worship the golden image. (Daniel 3:18)
Daniel did not obey the decree not to petition any god or man for thirty days, except the king.
Mordecai refused to bow down to the Persian magistrate Haman. (Esther 3:5)
Seven thousand in Israel refused to bow down and worship Baal. (I Kings 19:18)

So, there is a time and place for civil disobedience.

It's a cop-out.

It’s not a cop-out. Rather, we like it or not, we are under the submission of the government. As proof, don’t pay your taxes and watch what happens. Man-made governments are ruling on earth in God’s sted. Yes, God has supreme authority, but he has delegated that authority to us for the time being. As such, we should obey the governing authorities unless they do something that violates God’s word. Otherwise, like Satan, we are in unrighteous rebellion. Rebelling against the governing authorities for rebellion’s sake serves no purpose and certainly isn’t edifying. When Jesus said, “Give Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God," he made a distinction between the governing authorities and the spiritual authorities. Certain things belong to the governing authorities, and certain things belong to the spiritual authorities, and it will be that way until Jesus returns.

It is noteworthy that modern copyrighted “versions” of The Holy Bible have changed the phrase “higher powers” to merely “governing authorities,” thereby obscuring the necessary distinction between Godly authority and ungodly authority, between God’s kingdom and Satan’s kingdom.

I addressed that very thing in my opening post. Romans 13:7 gives the context of who those governing authorities or higher powers are referring to:

The biblical usage would indicate that "taxes" is a proper translation. This is confirmed in Luke 20:22 when the religious leaders asked Jesus, "Is it lawful for us to give tribute (phoros) unto Caesar, or no?" Tribuate clearly meant taxes. And since we don't pay tribute (or taxes) to our spiritual leaders, Romans 13:1 only makes sense in the context of government authorities.

p.s. I'm getting busy as work, so, I won't likely have time for follow-ups. Feel free to have the last word.

 

[doctrox]

Sure, we should. Understanding what those original words mean can provide us with better insights and context for what the scripture is conveying.

How does any thing, deemed by some men to be "original," trump what God has provided us?

Who gives us understanding - men, or God? It's the scholars, the wannabee's, the fakirs, who have corrupted the covenant and led many astray:

But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts (Mal. 2:8).

Otherwise, we’re dependent on what the translations say they mean, which isn’t always precise.

We're never to be "dependent" on any "translation" but on the Holy Spirit, who will tell us what "translations" mean:

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him (James 1:5).

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes (Mat. 11:25).

Any scripture can be twisted.

It can, and it is. Look around; it's obvious.

Romans 13 says, "Rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil,” thereby making a distinction between just and unjust governing authorities. The Nazi regime was not a Romans 13 just government.

I agree.

I would never define Christ’s assembly as “rulers.” I certainly wouldn’t consider my pastor the ruler over me.

A priest is a "ruler," and, as a member of the body of Christ, I qualify: But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, (2 Pet. 2:9).

And, "my pastor"??? This deception is sneaky. God is clear that he hates the doctrine of the Nicolaitans (Rev. 2:15), this priestly class favoritism. You have but one "pastor," one Father, and it isn't any man. IOW, it's a sin to call, to label, a man as "Pastor so-and-so." It's a usurpation. Call no man father (Mat. 23:9).

Hebrews 13 is speaking to a specific audience, Christian believers. It is how we should conduct ourselves within the Christian community and how we should defer to our spiritual leaders.

Of course.

[Hebrews 13] does not extend or apply to governing authorities outside of the church.

No issue there, either. However, the problem is that you (indeed, the majority at large) are rendering your obedience to that very "authority outside of the church," that ungodly pretender, that other master, that usurper. And push is coming to shove these days, in a very tragic way. "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."

Hebrews 13:17 is directed toward spiritual authorities, not governing authorities; there is a difference

No difference in God's view. No man can serve two masters; there can be only One.

The governing authorities are supposed to be from among us, from among the body of Christ. IOW, there is no such thing as 'the separation of church and state.' We're to come out from among the ungodly so-called governments and be separate and not touch that unclean thing; then God will receive us - not make excuses to continue in ungodly lifestyles in obedience to ungodly government.

We obey government when it’s just and obey God when it’s not.

That's a cop-out, another old wive's tale without scriptural support. Compromising with temporal powers e.g. the soulless State can never lead to redemption or a stronger walk with the King. If you're not grounded in Christ in the first instance, then you will soon enough become influenced or overwhelmed by the Godless State; it's only a matter of degree.

There is only one lawgiver (James 4:12). This one lawgiver is the Lord (Isaiah 33:22). Man does not have authority to make laws, but only the authority to make ‘ordinances’ which enforce Laws already in existence, which are the Laws of God. To obey the so-called ‘laws’ conjured up by the worldly governing authorities is to set aside the gospel of our Lord, and place oneself under a separate government, other than his.

Bondmen of Christ are not citizens of any country on this earth, our citizenship is in heaven, and so our first loyalty is to God, not "our" country (Ephesians 2:19, Philippians 3:20). Ours is a better, heavenly country (Hebrews 11:16).

So, there is a time and place for civil disobedience.

"Civil" Rights are created by man, and can be changed or abrogated at will by the creator of those rights (which is man). You will not find "civil rights" in scripture.

Today, citizens, persons, residents, and others of like spirit are "voluntarily serving" Caesar and his "civil" world. But the bondmen of Christ Jesus choose to be an obedient slave of and to the Prince of Peace.

A prisoner in jail doesn't go to the guards and ask them for an escape plan. God didn't command believers to settle for a bible study in the basement of the brothel; he commanded us to set our own city atop a hill.

Rather, we like it or not, we are under the submission of the government.

Rather, you are under subjection to the government to which you have submitted!!! So, to which one have you voluntarily subjected yourself?

You are under whatever law you have chosen to put yourself under. The choice is yours. But beware, for there is a form of obedience that leads to death:

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (Romans 6:16)

As proof, don’t pay your taxes and watch what happens.

For example, I do not pay taxes. Pisses you off, doesn't it? "How dare he?" "How does he get away with that?" "He's a liar!!" etc. etc. etc. As a child who is in obedience to the Most High God and none other, I am free.

And the reason why I do not pay taxes is because I have chosen to NOT align myself, to not submit to, that ungodly usurper. You, and most reading this, don't understand that it is a CHOICE. Rather, you go on through life being upset with the countless injustices you experience with the ungodly pretender - a burden borne of double-mindedness, of trying to serve two masters - loving one and hating the other.

Man-made governments are ruling on earth in God’s sted.

No, they're not. To be precise, "man-made governments are ruling" over those who have submitted themselves to them. IOW, the people have REJECTED the rule of God in favor of the usurper. Have we forgotten about the "earthly king" episode (Samuel)?

Yes, God has supreme authority, but he has delegated that authority to us for the time being.

Again, who is "us"? Is it the believers? Is it the unbelievers? Is it an unclean mix of the two? Where are YOU in that continuum? There's only one Lawgiver, and the government is on his shoulders. And this would be GODLY government - not the counterfeit most ignorantly serve today.

As such, we should obey the governing authorities unless they do something that violates God’s word.

That old wive's tale is without scriptural and linguistic support.

“Give Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God," he made a distinction between the governing authorities and the spiritual authorities. Certain things belong to the governing authorities, and certain things belong to the spiritual authorities, and it will be that way until Jesus returns.

You got that correct. But not for the reason you've posited. So why would a man of God have any thing, or involve himself with any thing, that is NOT of God? Jesus was telling each person in that crowd that they must make the decision as to which master they follow i.e. the one they "see" with their physical eyes (e.g. a superscription of Caesar on God's coin), or the eternal One? What is your choice? (I am certain of my singular choice...) No man can serve two masters.

This has everything to do about what Godly government’s role is. Again, the so-called “separation of church and state” is a lie, an abomination to the Lord.

When our brother Paul was accused by the Jews of persuading men to worship God contrary to the law, the courts of law of the Roman Government refused to judge religious matters, because they recognized they had no authority to judge in matters of "religious freedom" (Acts 18:12-16), as did the governments before Christ (Jeremiah 38:4-5).

There is not one time in scripture where Christ ever submitted to the Roman Imperial law. Period! He said his true family are not his blood relatives, but only those who "shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 12:50). Jesus Christ, nor any servant of God for that matter, has never, ever, never, ever said anything about doing the "will of man on earth", only the "will of your Father which is in heaven."

Our Lord taught us to resist evil when he said, "turn the other cheek" (Matthew 5:39). Resist evil and it will flee from you (James 4:7). We are not taught to overthrow the government, but to throw the wickedness out of government. We are to overthrow that which is ungodly and wicked by speaking the truth, and establish in its place that which is godly and holy. The only lawful government is that which governs according to God's Word.

There is no command in the Word of God to confess the State to the glory of the State.

Remember, the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. If men would "obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29), this world would be a much better place.

Feel free to have the last word.

There is no last word among us, but the word of God.

 

[LW97]

Couldn't be more straight forward. We shouldn't dishonor our leaders and we are not to deny taxes (Romans 13:8). When something however goes against God's word, we are to disobey (Acts 5:29). My country bans homeschooling and disciplining children, therefore I see this as a reason to disobey. It doesn't mean that I do not obey the laws that have no contradiction with God's law. A no brainer.

 

[doctrox]

Couldn't be more straight forward. We shouldn't dishonor our leaders and we are not to deny taxes (Romans 13:8).

"Our" leaders? If Caesar is your leader, and you owe Caesar, then yes you must pay Caesar. (Why did you choose to sign on with such a program that would require such payments to its ungodly leader?) God is my leader, and he does not extract taxes from me.

When something however goes against God's word, we are to disobey (Acts 5:29).

You will have no relevant scripture to back up that compromising opinion. It is the worldly default position, the cop-out, the lie we tell each other because we hope that such commiseration will ea$e the pain of our bondage.

My country bans homeschooling and disciplining children, therefore I see this as a reason to disobey.

If you hadn't signed on for Caesar's program in the first instance, then there would be no basis for any claim of disobedience, and you would be truly free (Mat. 17:26).

I homeschool three unpapered daughters and I discipline them, as well. Caesar has no jurisdiction whatsoever, because I choose to not submit to his authority, but to the King's.

It doesn't mean that I do not obey the laws that have no contradiction with God's law. A no brainer.

Rather, no man can serve two masters (Mat. 6:24).

 

[Webers_Home]

.
● Titus 3:1 . . Remind your people to submit to the government and its
officials. They should be obedient, always ready to do what is good.

A popular form of anarchy here in the USA is something called civil
disobedience-- defined as the active, professed refusal of a citizen to obey
certain laws of the state, and/or demands, orders, and commands of a
government, or of an occupying international power; i.e. non compliance
with constituted law and order. In other words: civil disobedience is
criminal.

Henry David Thoreau insisted that individuals should not permit governments
to overrule or atrophy their consciences, and that they have a duty to avoid
allowing such acquiescence to enable the government to make them the agents
of injustice.

That sounds very sensible but Thoreau was a transcendentalist which is a
philosophical/spiritual/literary movement that believes people are inherently
good; whereas the Bible teaches that people are inherently evil.

Self-rule in accord with one's conscience got its start in the garden of Eden.

● Gen 3:22 . .Then the Lord God said: Behold, the man has become like one
of us, knowing good and evil.

Unfortunately the conscience that Adam obtained via tasting the forbidden
fruit transformed himself into a tin God guided by his intuition instead taking
directions from his maker.

Self-rule was the primary form of government during the Judges' era of
spiritual decadence in the land of Israel.

● Judg 17:6 . . In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did
that which was right in his own eyes.
_

 

[Webers_Home]

Firstly, the popular usage of "anarchy" is incorrect.

If you are dissatisfied with the "popular" application of anarchy then have at
it because I don't do food fights-- ditto for civil.
_

 

[Kabone]

Thank you. Romans 13 never did sit quite right with me. It seemed like a paid endorsement of the Roman Empire., like one of those unskipable ads that pops up in your utube video.
Now that you folks have explained it I feel much better. Although, the bottom line seems to be follow the govt when it’s righteous, and don’t follow it when it’s not. IOW, follow God at all times, which we already knew. So doesn’t that make the chapter unnecessary?

 

[Piers Plowman]

"Our" leaders? If Caesar is your leader, and you owe Caesar, then yes you must pay Caesar. (Why did you choose to sign on with such a program that would require such payments to its ungodly leader?) God is my leader, and he does not extract taxes from me.


You will have no relevant scripture to back up that compromising opinion. It is the worldly default position, the cop-out, the lie we tell each other because we hope that such commiseration will ea$e the pain of our bondage.


If you hadn't signed on for Caesar's program in the first instance, then there would be no basis for any claim of disobedience, and you would be truly free (Mat. 17:26).

I homeschool three unpapered daughters and I discipline them, as well. Caesar has no jurisdiction whatsoever, because I choose to not submit to his authority, but to the King's.


Rather, no man can serve two masters (Mat. 6:24).

You have same aims as I do. The one thing which annoys me is, though, is the fact that the currency we use (and this applies to almost every advanced nations on this earth) are stamped with images of respective rulers upon them. Case in point-- the one dollar bill has the visage of Washington, and the reverse of it has an effigy of a pyramid, of all things. Wish I could avoid using such bills altogether...

 

[doctrox]

Although, the bottom line seems to be follow the govt when it’s righteous, and don’t follow it when it’s not. IOW, follow God at all times, which we already knew.

That's a contradiction i.e. do we "follow the govt when it's righteous," or do we "follow God at all times"? Can't have it both ways. This is the double-mindedness that is causing massive hemorrhaging in the body of Christ. The "bottom line" is there is only one Lawgiver.

So doesn’t that make the chapter unnecessary?

Ah, so you do see that there is a problem there.

The one thing which annoys me is, though, is the fact that the currency we use...the one dollar bill has the visage of Washington, and the reverse of it has an effigy of a pyramid, of all things.

Indeed, FRN's (Federal Reserve Notes) are an instrument of the occult, talismen. In accordance with the perps' core occultic doctrine, they must tell us what they're about to do to us, aka "The Revelation of the Method." In so doing, they believe they are absolved of any accountability for their wickedness (which we know is not true before Almighty God).

Wish I could avoid using such bills altogether...

You can avoid it. The key is in establishing local currencies. But that is such a far away goal for the vast majority, as they will not even come out of their ivory towers long enough to consider forming and building local communities. This is but one of the tasks I am currently involved with.

 

[Piers Plowman]

That's a contradiction i.e. do we "follow the govt when it's righteous," or do we "follow God at all times"? Can't have it both ways. This is the double-mindedness that is causing massive hemorrhaging in the body of Christ. The "bottom line" is there is only one Lawgiver.


Ah, so you do see that there is a problem there.


Indeed, FRN's (Federal Reserve Notes) are an instrument of the occult, talismen. In accordance with the perps' core occultic doctrine, they must tell us what they're about to do to us, aka "The Revelation of the Method." In so doing, they believe they are absolved of any accountability for their wickedness (which we know is not true before Almighty God).


You can avoid it. The key is in establishing local currencies. But that is such a far away goal for the vast majority, as they will not even come out of their ivory towers long enough to consider forming and building local communities. This is but one of the tasks I am currently involved with.

I have indeed heard about that-- apparently, it's okay to initiate mass destruction of property and lives, as long as they insert hints of it ahead of time in movies and mass media, or something. Never understood that logic, but then again, I'm rather glad that I don't.

I wish to hear your opinion about us using species such as gold and silver again, instead of these meaningless pieces of green cotton papers.
If nothing else, I'm not against using seashells as an alternative. Heh. (Sand dollars, anyone?)

 

[doctrox]

I have indeed heard about that-- apparently, it's okay to initiate mass destruction of property and lives, as long as they insert hints of it ahead of time in movies and mass media, or something. Never understood that logic, but then again, I'm rather glad that I don't.

It's a part of the satanist's religion whereby they have a ritualistic obligation to disclose their actions. Again, it does not absolve them from their wrongdoing, as it is merely a perversion of the forgiveness that is available exclusively to the born again in Jesus Christ. But we believers must be discerning; we must perform our due diligence in all matters - regardless of whether or not the perp's reveal their plans in advance.

...about us using species such as gold and silver again...

SPECIE. Coin of the precious metals, of a certain weight and fineness, and bearing the stamp of the government, denoting its value as currency. Black's Law Dictionary, 4th Edition, 1968, p. 1571
MONEY. In its strict technical sense, "money" means coined metal, usually gold or silver, upon which the government stamp has been impressed to indicate its value. Black's Law Dictionary, 4th Edition, 1968, p .1157

I keep a supply of one ounce silver dollars to trade with. It's a great conversation starter and visual reminder of what real money is.

...these meaningless pieces of green cotton papers.

FRN's are instruments of debt, mere promissory notes.

...using seashells as an alternative.

That's where the phrase "shelling out..." comes from. Seashells were used as money across the world well into the 20th century. Shells are still used by some cultures as a medium of exchange. While sojourning at Hawaii, I have used sunrise seashells, obtained while scuba diving, as a form of exchange for food.