Revelation 13:10 - the earth beast

[CTK]

I know this thread isn’t about the sea beast but if an incorrect interpretation of the sea beast is made, then the earth beast is going to be that much more difficult to interpret.

The sea beast has a very high probability of being the Daniel 7 little horn, in fact I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone making an argument against the little horn being the sea beast.

For me, the key verse that eliminates quite a few interpretations of who the sea beast is, is Revelation 13:7

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

A true believer is never “overcome” under the new covenant. In Philippians 1:20 Paul says Christ shall be magnified in his body whether by life or death, a believer who physically dies for their faith is not considered to be overcome but it is viewed as an honor to give their life as a testimony.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

In Revelation 11:7 the two witnesses are both overcome and killed which clearly indicates being overcome and killed are two different things. Despite this fact many people will insist the overcoming in Revelation 13 only means physical death.

The seven churches are all told they must overcome and there are some people who insist the saints will overcome while simultaneously the beast overcomes the saints, but since physical death isn’t viewed as being overcome from a believers perspective a person making this argument must say the overcoming is from the beasts perspective. Meaning it’s only the beast that thinks the saints are overcome. As far as I can tell, there is no other place in the Bible where that hermeneutic would even be considered, the Bible was written from the believers perspective.

I have yet to see anyone who places the Revelation 13 sea beast as taking place in the future put forth a reasonable explanation of how believers will be overcome. Especially since a believer will want God’s will to be done and obviously Revelation 13 has to be God’s will, so a believer shouldn’t be “overcome” by anything in Revelation 13.

I know this thread isn’t about the sea beast but if an incorrect interpretation of the sea beast is made, then the earth beast is going to be that much more difficult to interpret.

The sea beast has a very high probability of being the Daniel 7 little horn, in fact I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone making an argument against the little horn being the sea beast.

For me, the key verse that eliminates quite a few interpretations of who the sea beast is, is Revelation 13:7

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

A true believer is never “overcome” under the new covenant. In Philippians 1:20 Paul says Christ shall be magnified in his body whether by life or death, a believer who physically dies for their faith is not considered to be overcome but it is viewed as an honor to give their life as a testimony.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

In Revelation 11:7 the two witnesses are both overcome and killed which clearly indicates being overcome and killed are two different things. Despite this fact many people will insist the overcoming in Revelation 13 only means physical death.

The seven churches are all told they must overcome and there are some people who insist the saints will overcome while simultaneously the beast overcomes the saints, but since physical death isn’t viewed as being overcome from a believers perspective a person making this argument must say the overcoming is from the beasts perspective. Meaning it’s only the beast that thinks the saints are overcome. As far as I can tell, there is no other place in the Bible where that hermeneutic would even be considered, the Bible was written from the believers perspective.

I have yet to see anyone who places the Revelation 13 sea beast as taking place in the future put forth a reasonable explanation of how believers will be overcome. Especially since a believer will want God’s will to be done and obviously Revelation 13 has to be God’s will, so a believer shouldn’t be “overcome” by anything in Revelation 13.

You could not be more correct!!! This is an amazing finding!!! And I can say (my opinion) that I have not seen anyone come to that understanding and attempt to put these two beasts together. And, unless that is done, there is no way the earth beast can be properly identified. The sea beast is not as difficult because he is identified in Daniel. But it is only in Revelation 13 do we first find the earth beast. The sea beast is indeed the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8.

And regarding your comment that it is only the sea beast that thinks they have overcome the saints is quite true and I don’t know how you could have come up with that!!!!

That is a Daniel thing that carries forward to Revelation 13. This is just one of the many reasons why it is necessary to study Daniel first before taking on Revelation. There is no way on this earth that this (and some others) interpretation can be found unless it was first found in Daniel. This, in a single example, proves that you can not interpret Revelation without first understanding Daniel, and you can not understand Daniel through or by Revelation- it is a one way street.

 

[grafted branch]

Then you should read the words (highlighted) of Revelation 13:6-7 and compare it with the (highlighted) words in Daniel 7:25.

It is the same person in both chapters. But referred to as the little horn in Daniel 7 and the beast in Revelation 13.

Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

-----------------------------------------------------

The church is not here in the 42 months of Revelation 13:5 and the time, times, half times of Daniel 7:25. The rapture/resurrection event will take place before then.

Sorry, wrong thread.

 

[ewq1938]

The verse does not say "it" referring to a kingdom... or else the verse would be written as follows.

20 And the beast was taken, and with it the false prophet that wrought miracles before it, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped it's image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The beast in that verse is not an "it" - i.e. not a kingdom.

So a noun that is written in the Neuter is not an "it"? How so? How can a Neuter be a masculine "him"?

 

[ewq1938]

The sea beast is indeed the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8.

Nope.

Daniel - ten horned beast arises, little horn comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. Little horn is the antichrist.

Revelation - ten horned beast arises, false prophet with two little horns comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. False prophet is the antichrist.

 

[Douggg]

So a noun that is written in the Neuter is not an "it"? How so? How can a Neuter be a masculine "him"?

"him" is not an "it".

 

[ewq1938]

"him" is not an "it".

But "beast" in the Greek manuscripts is written in NEUTER not MASCULINE so it is an IT not a HIM.

You argue from the English translation while my argument comes from the original Greek manuscripts.

Here is proof the word BEAST is NEUTER so it is an IT:

 

[CTK]

Nope.

Daniel - ten horned beast arises, little horn comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. Little horn is the antichrist.

Revelation - ten horned beast arises, false prophet with two little horns comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. False prophet is the antichrist.

Not even close...

 

[Douggg]

Here is proof the word BEAST is NEUTER so it is an IT:

You are circling the wrong word. The issue is not the word "beast", but the pronoun "him". "him" is not a kingdom, but a person.

 

[ewq1938]

You are circling the wrong word.

lol, no I am not circling the wrong word. The gender of the noun determines the pronoun. Do you not understand a neuter has no gender and cannot be "him"? The use of "him" in a translation is not evidence. No translation can override of trump the original language something is written in.

The issue is not the word "beast", but the pronoun "him". "him" is not a kingdom, but a person.

No, a kingdom/beast in the NEUTER is an it, as all kingdoms would be because they aren't people nor is male or female in gender.

 

[ewq1938]

Not even close...

lol...why the short non-answer? Wanna explain how I am wrong? The truth is you can't find fault or disprove it, so you just throw up a nothing post.

 

[CTK]

lol...why the short non-answer? Wanna explain how I am wrong? The truth is you can't find fault or disprove it, so you just throw up a nothing post.

Nope.

 

[Douggg]

lol, no I am not circling the wrong word. The gender of the noun determines the pronoun. Do you not understand a neuter has no gender and cannot be "him"?

From an internet search on "him" definition.

"The pronoun "him" is used as the object of a verb or preposition to refer to a male person or animal that has already been mentioned or is easily identified1. It is typically used to refer to a man, boy, or male animal"

The beast in Revelation 19:20 will be a male person who will be cast alive into the lake of fire. "alive" refers to living creatures - not a kingdom.

 

[Ziggy]

I think humans are the beast who run a world government system.
I don't believe it's one idividual but a collective group of people. There are many anti-christs in the world. Paul says, even now. They've had 2024 years to perfect it. And right before it came to fruition, God through a rock in the gears.
The Beast is mankind and the kingdom is the world. And both are going to go through trials to try the mind and the body.
The war is for your souls.
Sprirtual warfare being performed by information warfare.

The external battle:
A man defends another by causing the demise of the attacker.
Half the people call him a hero, and the other half a criminal.
Half the jews saw Jesus as a criminal because he threatened their way of life and they accused him of blasphemy.
The other half saw Jesus as a hero which came to liberate them from the oppression of the beast kingdom they were living under.

The internal battle:
Which do you believe?

Holy vs. unholy
Righteousness vs. unrighteousness
Good vs. evil

This is what we fight every minute of every day. We choose. The battle is within.

When you have overcome, the things you thought and the acts you did will prove whether you chose right or wrong.
The beast (your body) and the kingdom ( your mind)... wrong thinking, will be obliterated and you won't act or think that way anymore.

A lot of battles going on in everyone every day. Some are not so strong and can't break free from all the noise. They are comfortable doing and thinking like they are told and taught.
Some a much stronger and have faith and can move mountains and see through the charade. The deception and the lies are thick.

The hard part is leaving that way of thinking, the harder part is not looking back.
Remember Lot's wife.

God will sort it all out in the end.

Hugs

 

[ewq1938]

From an internet search on "him" definition.

Wrong word and wrong language. This is the word you need to search: τούτου (toutou)

 

[Douggg]

Wrong word and wrong language. This is the word you need to search: τούτου (toutou)

At Bible Hub, there are only few of the translations that have "it" instead of "him".

The beast and the false prophet will be cast alive into the lake fire. So the notion that the beast in that verse is a kingdom is not a match because being alive applies to living creatures.

In 2Peter2:12 and Jude 1:10, certain particularly evil men were spoken of as "brute beasts".

In Revelation 16:10, the beast is referred to as being king over his kingdom.

10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

 

[ewq1938]

At Bible Hub, there are only few of the translations that have "it" instead of "him".

Translations are not evidence. Only the manuscripts in the original languages can offer evidence.

The beast and the false prophet will be cast alive into the lake fire. So the notion that the beast in that verse is a kingdom is not a match because being alive applies to living creatures.

There is no such thing as a ten horned/7 headed beast, some guy, and the false prophet.

Ther is only the ten horned/7 headed beast and the FP. The other person you have as part of the ten horned beast does not exist.

The beast kingdom is described in symbolic terms as being alive despite it being a kingdom.

 

[Douggg]

There is no such thing as a ten horned/7 headed beast, some guy, and the false prophet.

The beast person is the eighth king, having previously been of the seven kings.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Also the false prophet, the beast out of the earth, does not have ten horns (ten kings). Those ten horns, kings, are on the beast coming out of the sea.

 

[ewq1938]

The beast person is the eighth king, having previously been of the seven kings.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Also the false prophet, the beast out of the earth, does not have ten horns (ten kings). Those ten horns, kings are on the beast coming out of the sea.

Again, you have 3 beasts when scripture only has two.

You have the ten horned beast kingdom AND an imaginary beast king which is two beasts then you have the FP beast. That's a total of three being called a beast which is not scriptural.


There is only the beast kingdom and the FP beast king over that kingdom. There is never a second guy, not in Rev or Daniel or any writing about the Ac end times figure. The Ac NEVER has a sidekick or second in command person.

 

[Douggg]

Again, you have 3 beasts when scripture only has two.

You have the ten horned beast kingdom AND an imaginary beast king which is two beasts then you have the FP beast. That's a total of three being called a beast which is not scriptural.

No, you are twisting what I write.

The beast out of the sea.
7 heads (7 kings), 10 horns (10 kings). One of the heads is the beast-king over the beast kingdom. The beast-king will be cast alive into the lake of fire.

The beast out of the earth.
2 horns (not kings) The beast out of the earth is the false prophet.

 

[Douggg]

There is only the beast kingdom and the FP beast king over that kingdom

No, the false prophet is not a king over anything. The false prophet, the beast out of the earth, has no crown.

The seven heads on the first beast have crowns in Revelation 12.

The false prophet will be a religious promoter of the beast-king, who will be mortally wounded but comes back to life.