RESCUING THE BIBLE ONLY PEOPLE!!!

[Grailhunter]

But do they want to be rescued?
Do they want a religion of fantasy?

Ya know people like fantasies…..Santa Clause is a popular and comforting fantasy. But deep down they know it is a fantasy.

But what I am talking about is more about false beliefs than fantasies. But still, do Christians want to know deep down that their religion is riddled with false beliefs. Christian beliefs should not be full of false beliefs.

I have spoken a lot about false Christian theological phrases. They are not just incorrect, they are harmful to Christianity and to Christians and have caused a great deal of sin. They have an intent to be harmful because you do not see any that improve Christianity. And they harm both physically and emotionally.

I have also explained that I worship with several different denominations at several churches and whether it is the preacher that preaches Bible Only or some or most of the congregation that are Bible Only, I love them all! I gladly stand and worship with them.

So I am not being insultive, but I believe Christians deserve to know the truth. The truth will reduce sin, as such is the character of truth.

 

[quietthinker]

Is this a back door to advertised piety?

 

[Grailhunter]

Is this a back door to advertised piety?

No

 

[Skovand]

I think many are just unaware of the reality surrounding the Bible. They often act as if it was a book that fell from heaven or was a book where it’s authors were possessed by the Holy Ghost losing control of their body and wind and woke up after an automatic trance in awe looking down as a few pages of scriptures.

But that’s not what the Bible claims and it’s not how it happened. People in ancient Mesopotamia were around before Judaism. Even the Bible mentions that Abraham came from a “pagan” nation. Before the first Jewish scripture was written, they shared their beliefs orally. Word of mouth to ear to word of mouth to ear. They shared stories. These stories were very common throughout Mesopotamia. Within the Canaanites there arose a tribe that later on became the Hebrews. They developed a written language and within this group they begin to take the stories that have been passed around for ages and compiling them. Different sects of Jews had different scriptures. In one story god made male and female from the earth on the same day. In another story he made just the male and then split him in half creating a woman and a man after he tried to see if the man found companionship with the animals. In another nearby kingdom, the Story was of a man named Gilgamesh and from the clay the gods make Enkidu who lived in the wild, ate with the animals, and was naked, until he was deceived by a woman and slept with her. Then he craved sex and power. He challenged Gilgamesh but they became best friends. Enkidu got wounded wanting and so Gilgamesh sought out a man who had eternal life given to him after the gods flooded the whole world. This man survived on a ark and told Gilgamesh to find this special plant that grows deep in the ocean. It gives eternal life and you’ll become like the gods. Gilgamesh found it, but a snake tricked him and stole the fruit from him.

The story of Gilgamesh is older than the two separate creation accounts in genesis. People who are “bible only” though ignores all of that. People who are Bible only tends to think that scholarship is evil. So in science. They think they are better equipped to study the Bible on their own. Even though they don’t speak koine Greek, Aramaic or ancient Hebrew.

People who are Bible only don’t realize that the Bible did not create Jewish culture and religious beliefs. The Bible is a snippet of what ancient Jews already culturally and spiritually believed. Just like the Bible did not create their laws. They already had laws and from those laws some were selected and ended up in the Bible. The Bible has roughly 611 laws of do and don’t do. Those 611 in gematria equals to “ The Torah” which means the teachings. That’s because those 611 laws were handpicked.

It would be like if we had a book and that book mentioned “ can’t drive faster than 80 anywhere in America” and so future people believed that we drove around 80 everywhere we went, and when someone pointed out that other texts mention speed limits of 15,25, 55 and so on. But the first group said….. that’s not what the book says. The book only says don’t go past 80. It never mentions 35 speed limits, that’s not part of the book. That’s just secular. So Bible only miss out on all of the context of the Bible beside they ignore the context that formed the Bible.

Because these people so often have to ignore logic, and create forced dots to connect, such as systematic theology and inerrancy, it causes them to be in a constant state of anger. Even if they don’t recognize it. Anything that’s not the same as them they get mad. In America Christianity is part of the greater western tradition of biblical interpretation. They confuse the American Christianity for ancient Judaism and first century Christianity. They often develop conservative lens to understand the English translation of the Bible.

Take gender. Bible only, and usually English Bible only or rather anyone not speaking ancient Hebrew, will often decide there are only two
Genders. But just like with the speed limit example, they miss out on what the ancients actually believed.

More than Two Sexes Exist in Jewish and Christian Scripture: Male, Female, and Intersex in the Image of God.

As a Master of Divinity Student at Meadville Lombard Theological School, I originally wrote this as my midterm paper for a summer 2022 class I took at Chicago Theological Seminary. The class was Ve…

anunnakiray.com

 

[Grailhunter]

I think many are just unaware of the reality surrounding the Bible. They often act as if it was a book that fell from heaven or was a book where it’s authors were possessed by the Holy Ghost losing control of their body and wind and woke up after an automatic trance in awe looking down as a few pages of scriptures.

But that’s not what the Bible claims and it’s not how it happened. People in ancient Mesopotamia were around before Judaism. Even the Bible mentions that Abraham came from a “pagan” nation. Before the first Jewish scripture was written, they shared their beliefs orally. Word of mouth to ear to word of mouth to ear. They shared stories. These stories were very common throughout Mesopotamia. Within the Canaanites there arose a tribe that later on became the Hebrews. They developed a written language and within this group they begin to take the stories that have been passed around for ages and compiling them. Different sects of Jews had different scriptures. In one story god made male and female from the earth on the same day. In another story he made just the male and then split him in half creating a woman and a man after he tried to see if the man found companionship with the animals. In another nearby kingdom, the Story was of a man named Gilgamesh and from the clay the gods make Enkidu who lived in the wild, ate with the animals, and was naked, until he was deceived by a woman and slept with her. Then he craved sex and power. He challenged Gilgamesh but they became best friends. Enkidu got wounded wanting and so Gilgamesh sought out a man who had eternal life given to him after the gods flooded the whole world. This man survived on a ark and told Gilgamesh to find this special plant that grows deep in the ocean. It gives eternal life and you’ll become like the gods. Gilgamesh found it, but a snake tricked him and stole the fruit from him.

The story of Gilgamesh is older than the two separate creation accounts in genesis. People who are “bible only” though ignores all of that. People who are Bible only tends to think that scholarship is evil. So in science. They think they are better equipped to study the Bible on their own. Even though they don’t speak koine Greek, Aramaic or ancient Hebrew.

People who are Bible only don’t realize that the Bible did not create Jewish culture and religious beliefs. The Bible is a snippet of what ancient Jews already culturally and spiritually believed. Just like the Bible did not create their laws. They already had laws and from those laws some were selected and ended up in the Bible. The Bible has roughly 611 laws of do and don’t do. Those 611 in gematria equals to “ The Torah” which means the teachings. That’s because those 611 laws were handpicked.

It would be like if we had a book and that book mentioned “ can’t drive faster than 80 anywhere in America” and so future people believed that we drove around 80 everywhere we went, and when someone pointed out that other texts mention speed limits of 15,25, 55 and so on. But the first group said….. that’s not what the book says. The book only says don’t go past 80. It never mentions 35 speed limits, that’s not part of the book. That’s just secular. So Bible only miss out on all of the context of the Bible beside they ignore the context that formed the Bible.

Because these people so often have to ignore logic, and create forced dots to connect, such as systematic theology and inerrancy, it causes them to be in a constant state of anger. Even if they don’t recognize it. Anything that’s not the same as them they get mad. In America Christianity is part of the greater western tradition of biblical interpretation. They confuse the American Christianity for ancient Judaism and first century Christianity. They often develop conservative lens to understand the English translation of the Bible.

Take gender. Bible only, and usually English Bible only or rather anyone not speaking ancient Hebrew, will often decide there are only two
Genders. But just like with the speed limit example, they miss out on what the ancients actually believed.

More than Two Sexes Exist in Jewish and Christian Scripture: Male, Female, and Intersex in the Image of God.

As a Master of Divinity Student at Meadville Lombard Theological School, I originally wrote this as my midterm paper for a summer 2022 class I took at Chicago Theological Seminary. The class was Ve…

anunnakiray.com

Thanks for that good information.
Some of the early stories in the scriptures are similar to stories in other cultures. And people are starting to find these places in the Old Testament stories.
Thanks again.

 

[Grailhunter]

The Bible tells us about Christianity, that is the first three quarters of the first century. But there is still a lot that people do not know or have misunderstandings about early Christianity, very common misunderstandings so lets go through it.

Of course the Apostles were the first “members” of the Way which was what Christianity was first called. The Apostles were Jews and the first converts to the Way were Jews ….Jewish-Christians.

We only know so much about the twelve Apostles and most of what we know come from folklore outside of the Bible. But the Bible introduces us to Matthew and John in the Gospels and Mark and Luke in the Gospels….Mark was a disciple of Peter and Luke was a disciple of Paul so they were not part of the twelve Apostles chosen by Christ.

Then there is the word Gospel.
The term Gospel does not mean Good News. In the Greek it is a military term…. euangélion (εὐαγγέλιον) is what they call a compound term…. In ancient Greece and Rome, euangélion was a military term that referred to a proclamation of victory by the winning army. In the New Testament, the authors repurposed the word to refer to the declaration that believing in Yeshua would save us from Hell and offer an eternal reward in Heaven ---

The word euangélion was translated into Latin as evangelium in the Vulgate, and into Old English as gōdspel. The Old English term was retained as "gospel" in Middle English Bible translations and it remains in use in Modern English. But still the news of salvation for the world was Good News….so it is still practical and proper to call the New Testament Good News or Gospels.

“”In the New Testament, the authors repurposed the word””…This is called Christian Greek. The writers of the New Testament mostly wrote it in Koiné Greek and a few others, but non of these languages had Christian terms and phrases because …..these languages were Pagan. So the Christian writers took similar Greek words and adjusted the definition to have Christian meanings. One of the simple examples of this is the Greek word for sin. In the Greek if you sinned it meant your arrow or spear missed the target, no moral implication. The Christian writers repurposed the word to mean a transgression against God…sin. Even the Greek word for moral has no religious meaning in the Greek so it was repurposed also.

The four Gospels tell of Yeshua’s ministry, and they tell of the Jewish-Christians. Something to keep in mind as you are reading the Gospels. Christ’s ministry occurs during a time when the Old Covenant was still in effect and the Jews were following the Mosaic Laws. So were the members of the Way, the Jewish sect lead by Yeshua. The Jewish-Christians were still observing the Mosaic Laws. The Mosaic Law contains 613 Laws, during the time of Christ not all of them could be obeyed. One reason was that some of the Laws called for executions for some offenses but the Jews did not have the authority to execute people under Roman rule.

The Apostles lived and walked with Christ and what they got from listening to Him was that they should still follow the Mosaic Laws, at least in part. The Way had a very Jewish flavor and as a religion still revolved around the Temple. Scholars believe they worshipped in the Temple and if they worshipped in the Temple it is thought they still sacrificed animals because if they were in the temple and refused to sacrifice animals they would have been either killed or kicked out. It is also thought that the Jewish-Christians observed the 7 day event of Passover in Jewish fashion.

To be part of The Way they had to be circumcised and follow the Mosaic Law. Of course the Jews were circumcised but anyone that was not Jewish and wanted to convert, they had to be circumcised and learn and obey the Mosaic Laws, worshipping Yahweh on the Saturday Jewish Sabbath, in accordance with the Mosaic Law. But non Jewish converts could not enter the Temple and worshipped in a designated spot….the same went for women regardless if they were Jewish or not.

So during Yeshua’s ministry if you look closely at the conversations that Christ had, it was mostly with Jews and the topic more often than not was about Judaism and or the Mosaic Law. So some conversations do not pertain to Christianity. The most famous of which was the discussion He had with Jews about divorce. He was talking to Jews about the Mosaic Law that pertained to divorce. These Jews could have had 5 wives or more and if they divorced for any other reason except adultery, Christ told them they could not marry again….but if they still had four wives it had a different meaning.

And Christianity did not adopt the practice of a Letter of Divorcement not even the word divorce. So attempting to marry this discussion into Christianity would cause some inaccuracies.

Some conversations do pertain to Christianity….mostly indirectly and mostly about forgiveness. Still at times Christ was talking to His Apostles and the topic could be more about the teachings of the New Covenant. Then there were private conversations with people like His secret disciples Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus.

From what we read about Peter we would think that he was the leader of the twelve Apostles but as it turns out James the brother of Christ becomes the leader of the twelve. But maybe the word leader is not exactly descriptive. James was the leader in a sense but Peter’s input was highly respected. And early on Peter was the leader of a Christian commune.

So let me ask the question; What if Paul was never converted and the Way was all we had to represent Christianity?
The scriptures never indicated that a wedding ceremony was required to be married. So the Jewish marriage process was still in effect. Fathers picked their daughter’s husbands and money was exchanged for the bride, so women in the Way were still treated as property. And the marriage was a family celebration on their own, no clergy and the marriage was formed by the union in the bridle chamber with guest listening from a distance. Paul eventually tells men to love their wives but they are still treated a property.

The scriptures do not indicate that polygamy, concubinage, or selling of daughters into concubinage, or treating women as property or slavery as whole was wrong or to stop these practices. So they continued in Christianity for several centuries after the biblical period.

The Jewish-Christian religion did not last long and by the end of the 1st century the religion died out. Its end was caused by a few things. It became unpopular with non-Jews and the Roman siege and the destruction of the Temple was demoralizing and made following their religion very difficult. So if Paul would not have been converted Christianity may have come to an end with them.

But if it did not come to end, would we still be following the Mosaic Law and not have wedding ceremonies and have multiple wives and concubines and slaves?
Continued......

 

[Grailhunter]

But Paul was converted….
And then the question is, why did Christ convert Paul?
Did Yeshua see the end of Christianity if He did not?
Did Yeshua think that the details of the Gospel need further explanation?
Did Yeshua think the Gospel at that point was incomplete?
Did Yeshua want to expand the Gospel to include the whole world?
What all did Yeshua tell/teach Paul at His conversion?

Whatever Christ said to Paul his “Gospel” would be different and have a different mission. So at this point it can be said that there were two Gospels. Paul’s ministry would be to the Pagans and Pagan converts are called Gentiles in the Bible. Eventually Peter joins Paul’s ministry and according to some this caused a perception of strength and legitimacy to Paul’s ministry.

The Pauline Gospel dropped the Jewish culture and the Mosaic Law. And this sect is called Gentile-Christians and they were not required to be circumcised or follow the Mosaic Laws, and that includes Kosher dietary restrictions.

Of course this caused a lot of animosity between the Jewish-Christians and the Gentile-Christians and Paul and the Gentile-Christian were severely harassed. The Jewish-Christians demanding that new Gentile converts had be circumcised and follow the Mosaic Laws to be Christians.

Finally Paul and Peter met with James in Jerusalem for a ruling to end the harassment. Acts Chapter 15 And here is the ruling that James issued.

The apostles and elders, your brothers,
To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:
Greetings.
We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul—men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.
Farewell.----Acts 15:23-29

So except for four basic stipulations the Mosaic Law only pertained to Jews and Jewish-Christians. After which Peter and Paul preached the Gentile-Christian Gospel to the world. Now how different was this Gospel? Dropping the Mosaic Law and Jewish culture was a significant difference in substance and character. So the Gospel that Paul preached, saved them from Hell, freed them from the burden of the Mosaic Law and offered an eternal stay in Heaven.

Of course there was a lot more details and explanations revealed in Paul’s ministry. But was this the second Gospel? Or was it a continuance or addition to the first Gospel? I will leave that up to you all to decide.

As I said before the scriptures do not indicate that polygamy, concubinage, or selling of daughters into concubinage, or treating women as property or slavery as whole was wrong or to stop these practices. So they continued in Christianity for several centuries after the biblical period.

Why didn’t Christ and or the Apostles put an end to these practices? That is a long and speculative topic about the feasibility of changing an entire culture and economic structure.

So how and when did Christianity stop these practices?
When did the Christian practice of polygamy end?
The Catholic Church held a synod in Hertford, England, in 673 that was supervised by Archbishop Theodore. Chapter 10 issued by the synod declared that marriage is only allowed between one man and one woman…..A few centuries later the Jews started to stop practicing polygamy. But outlaw versions of this continued minimally.

When did the Christian practice of concubinage end?
As far as forced concubinage and forced arranged marriages, they were outlawed by the Catholic Church and civilly around the 13th century. But as far as willing concubines…. The practice of concubinage was eventually outlawed by the Catholic Council of Trent in the 16th century But still this practice continued on minimally and I have meet concubines today.

Those lovely Christian Wedding Ceremonies….
It is correct to say that all wedding ceremonies come from Pagan sources. And modern Christian wedding ceremonies still have Pagan customs imbedded in them and their receptions. But this sounds worse than what it is.

When Christianity was offered to the world….For God so loved the world…these Pagan converts stopped worshipping Pagan gods but they did bring a lot of their culture into Christianity and it was the Gentile-Christians that took the helm of the Church. So a lot of our holidays are Christianized – Pagan holidays. And it is for certain that Gentile-Christian weddings occured after the 1st century. How many we do no know because the first document Christian wedding occurs in the 9th century.

And when Martin Luther and the Protestants split from the Catholic Church most of them accepted these customs. And in the 16th century the Protestants even made Church Wedding Ceremonies a requirement to be married. Before that the Catholic Church had no such requirement and would not even allow weddings in their churches. Shortly after the Protestants made weddings a requirement the Catholic Church followed suit.

Do the scriptures in the New Testament indicate that a spouse should obey her husband? Yes. Why? Women continued to be treated like property for several centuries after the biblical period.

Fathers bought wives for their sons in arranged marriages. Very common practice, even though the Catholic Church forbid arrange marriages and gave women the right to chose their husband….. around the 13th century, if memory serves. Still this practice continued on for a long time.

So then again the question….Should a spouse obey her husband?
Of course, if you are Bible Only, you own your wife, so she should obey you. For those that are Bible Only and the husband and wife believe this and a woman willing put herself under the subjugation of he husband….….it is her choice…

But it is no longer a custom of Christianity.
Just like polygamy and concubinage….a father selling his daughter as a sex slave is no longer a custom of Christianity. And a man does not exchange money with the father for his daughter’s hand in marriage anymore.

So as it is today a marriage is an agreement…..so before entering into marriage ladies ….define your roles before you get married.

The story of Christianity can fill libraries so sorry for the abbreviated version.
Ask if you have questions.

 

[Skovand]

I definitely think that’s one issue they run into as Bible only. I feel it comes down to accomondationism vs concordism. It seems like God when he reaches out to people reaches out to them in a way that is meaningful meaning to their time, culture and place. It’s why the Torah is very Mesopotamian. It’s why the epistles are very Hellenistic. Often before the leaders of the Catholic Church voted to abolish thing through theocracy, the majority of the community was already against them. By that I mean the powerless. Since the Bible is not systematic in its theology, but mentions conflicting beliefs and movements, many within it fixate on different passages.

For example even though the Bible does not forbid slavery, when the colonizers came to America with their slaves, and wanted to force a form of Christianity on them they created what is called the slaves Bible by removing vast portions and entire books from it. So that the slaves had a message not very hopeful for them. A good book that discusses this issue is “Reading While Black” by Esau McCaulley. But just like with Judaism, there has always been multiple traditions of Christianity. One of the oldest forms is the Coptic Christians whose Bible is even larger than the Catholic Bible.

So as the Holy Spirit moved more and more into the fruits of righteousness, inside and outside the body, and those who were powerless gained a stronger bond with those in power things like emotional intelligence, cognitive processing and social standards begin to raise up freeing humanity from their barbaric ways. As more nations overlapped, things never considered before were thought on.

 

[Grailhunter]

Why do Christian worship on Sunday?

Well we can go through the history of it, it is pretty short and sweet. In the Bible the Saturday Jewish Sabbath was the only holy day of the week but it was always awkward for the Gentile-Christians because they were not allowed in the Temple or other Jewish places of worship. And because of the persecutions the Gentile-Christians were mostly worshipping in hiding ….worshipping in the wilderness, in catacombs, and private homes. Most scholars agree that sunrise vigils on Sunday celebrating Christ’s resurrection was common among Gentile-Christians before the end of the 1st century and this custom came to be called the Lord’s day and the official Christian day of worship.

And then you had the horror of 70 AD---the Roman siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple. This was an unrecoverable shock to the Jews and Jewish-Christians and Judaism as a whole. How could God allow this?

A complicated story but what went on behind the walls of Jerusalem during the siege tuned everyone against everyone. Too horrible to explain on this forum but as it was the Jews and the Jewish-Christian and the Gentile-Christian hated each other. After the dust settled each sect went their separate ways.

So the end of the 1st century the Gentile-Christians were worshipping on Sunday and calling it the Lord’s Day. Also by the end of the 1st century the Jewish-Christians had all but died out. No Jewish-Christian writings after the 1st century…and the Gentile-Christians had taken the helm of Christianity and started to write….And they were adamantly opposed to worshipping on the Jewish Saturday Sabbath.

Now here are some examples of Gentile-Christian writings after the 1st century about the Lord’s Day and the Sabbath. You can go through them.

Now a days there are Christians that want to go back to mixing the Christian and Jewish religions, but the more early Christian writings you read the more clear it is that there was no support for that.

The Didache
1. But every Lord’s day do ye gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure.
(Didache Chapter XIV.11 —Christian Assembly on the Lord’s Day. 14 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas 70 AD
Since, therefore, the days are evil, and Satan possesses the power of this world, we ought to give heed to ourselves, and diligently inquire into the ordinances of the Lord. Fear and patience, then, are helpers of our faith; and long-suffering and continence are things which fight on our side. While these remain pure in what respects the Lord, Wisdom, Understanding, Science, and Knowledge rejoice along with them. For He hath revealed to us by all the prophets that He needs neither sacrifices, nor burnt-offerings, nor oblations, saying thus, “What is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me, saith the Lord? I am full of burnt-offerings, and desire not the fat of lambs, and the blood of bulls and goats, not when ye come to appear before Me: for who hath required these things at your hands? Tread no more My courts, not though ye bring with you fine flour. Incense is a vain abomination unto Me, and your new moons and Sabbaths I cannot endure.” He has therefore abolished these things, that the new law of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is without the yoke of necessity, might have a human oblation(The Epistle of Barnabas 1 Chapter II.—The Jewish sacrifices are now abolished.)

Further, He says to them, “Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure.” Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead. And when He had manifested Himself, He ascended into the heavens.(The Epistle of Barnabas Chapter XV.—The false and the true Sabbath. [A.D. 74].

(Why do early Christian writes refer to the 8th day?
When they celebrated Sunday as “the eighth day,” early Christians signaled that God's new creation had begun in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. From a rich sabbath tradition of devotion to God, prayer, and Scripture study in the synagogue, their new “Sunday” way of life gradu- ally emerged.)

Ignatius of Antioch
If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death—whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master(Letter to the Magnesians(shorter) Chapter IX.—Let us live with Christ [A.D. 110].

During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathæa had laid Him. At the dawning of the Lord’s day He arose from the dead, according to what was spoken by Himself, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” The day of the preparation, then, comprises the passion; the Sabbath embraces the burial; the Lord’s Day contains the resurrection(The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians Longer Versions. Chapter IX.—Reference to the history of Christ.)
Continued......

 

[Grailhunter]

Justin Martyr
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.(First Apology Chapter LXVII.—Weekly worship of the Christians. [A.D. 155]).

Continued.....

 

[Grailhunter]

Tertullian 160-240 AD
“[L]et him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation, and circumcision on the eighth day . . . teach us that, for the time past, righteous men kept the Sabbath or practiced circumcision, and were thus rendered ‘friends of God.’ For if circumcision purges a man, since God made Adam uncircumcised, why did he not circumcise him, even after his sinning, if circumcision purges? . . . Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering him sacrifices, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, was by him [God] commended [Gen. 4:1–7, Heb. 11:4]. . . . Noah also, uncircumcised—yes, and unobservant of the Sabbath—God freed from the deluge. For Enoch too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, he translated from this world, who did not first taste death in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God”(An Answer to the Jews Chapter II.—The Law Anterior to Moses. [A.D. 203].

Tertullian
It follows, accordingly, that, in so far as the abolition of carnal circumcision and of the old law is demonstrated as having been consummated at its specific times, so also the observance of the Sabbath is demonstrated to have been temporary. For the Jews say, that from the beginning God sanctified the seventh day, by resting on it from all His works which He made; and that thence it was, likewise, that Moses said to the People: “Remember the day of the Sabbaths, to sanctify it: every servile work ye shall not do therein, except what pertaineth unto life.” Whence we (Christians) understand that we still more ought to observe a sabbath from all “servile work” always, and not only every seventh day, but through all time. And through this arises the question for us, what Sabbath God willed us to keep? For the Scriptures point to a Sabbath eternal and a sabbath temporal. For Isaiah the prophet says, “Your Sabbaths my soul hateth;” and in another place he says, “My Sabbaths ye have profaned.”9 Whence we discern that the temporal sabbath is human, and the eternal sabbath is accounted divine; concerning which He predicts through Isaiah: “And there shall be,” He says, “month after month, and day after day, and Sabbath after Sabbath; and all flesh shall come to adore in Jerusalem, saith the Lord;” which we understand to have been fulfilled in the times of Christ, when “all flesh”—that is, every nation—“came to adore in Jerusalem” God the Father, through Jesus Christ His Son, as was predicted through the prophet: “Behold, proselytes through me shall go unto Thee.” Thus, therefore, before this temporal Sabbath, there was withal an eternal Sabbath foreshown and foretold; just as before the carnal circumcision there was withal a spiritual circumcision foreshown. In short, let them teach us, as we have already premised, that Adam observed the Sabbath; or that Abel, when offering to God a holy victim, pleased Him by a religious reverence for the sabbath; or that Enoch, when translated, had been a keeper of the sabbath; or that Noah the ark-builder observed, on account of the deluge, an immense sabbath; or that Abraham, in observance of the sabbath, offered Isaac his son; or that Melchizedek in his priesthood received the law of the Sabbath.

But the Jews are sure to say, that ever since this precept was given through Moses, the observance has been binding. Manifest accordingly it is, that the precept was not eternal nor spiritual, but temporary, which would one day cease. In short, so true is it that it is not in the exemption from work of the sabbath—that is, of the seventh day—that the celebration of this solemnity is to consist, that Joshua the son of Nun, at the time that he was reducing the city Jericho by war, stated that he had received from God a precept to order the People that priests should carry the ark of the testament of God seven days, making the circuit of the city; and thus, when the seventh day’s circuit had been performed, the walls of the city would spontaneously fall. Which was so done; and when the space of the seventh day was finished, just as was predicted, down fell the walls of the city. Whence it is manifestly shown, that in the number of the seven days there intervened a sabbath-day. For seven days, whencesoever they may have commenced, must necessarily include within them a sabbath-day; on which day not only must the priests have worked, but the city must have been made a prey by the edge of the sword by all the people of Israel. Nor is it doubtful that they “wrought servile work,” when, in obedience to God’s precept, they drave the preys of war. For in the times of the Maccabees, too, they did bravely in fighting on the sabbaths, and routed their foreign foes, and recalled the law of their fathers to the primitive style of life by fighting on the sabbaths. Nor should I think it was any other law which they thus vindicated, than the one in which they remembered the existence of the prescript touching “the day of the sabbaths.” Whence it is manifest that the force of such precepts was temporary, and respected the necessity of present circumstances; and that it was not with a view to its observance in perpetuity that God formerly gave them such a law.(An Answer to the Jews Chapter IV.—Of the Observance of the Sabbath.)

Tertullian
Therefore, since it is manifest that a Sabbath temporal was shown, and a sabbath eternal foretold; a circumcision carnal foretold, and a circumcision spiritual pre-indicated; a law temporal and a law eternal formally declared; sacrifices carnal and sacrifices spiritual foreshown; it follows that, after all these precepts had been given carnally, in time preceding, to the people Israel, there was to supervene a time whereat the precepts of the ancient Law and of the old ceremonies would cease, and the promise 3 of the new law, and the recognition of spiritual sacrifices, and the promise of the New Testament, supervene;4 while the light from on high would beam upon us who were sitting in darkness, and were being detained in the shadow of death.5 And so there is incumbent on us a necessity6 binding us, since we have premised that a new law was predicted by the prophets, and that not such as had been already given to their fathers at the time when He led them forth from the land of Egypt,7 to show and prove, on the one hand, that that old Law has ceased, and on the other, that the promised new law is now in operation.

And, indeed, first we must inquire whether there be expected a giver of the new law, and an heir of the new testament, and a priest of the new sacrifices, and a purger of the new circumcision, and an observer of the eternal sabbath, to suppress the old law, and institute the new testament, and offer the new sacrifices, and repress the ancient ceremonies, and suppress the old circumcision together with its own sabbath, and announce the new kingdom which is not corruptible. Inquire, I say, we must, whether this giver of the new law, observer of the spiritual sabbath, priest of the eternal sacrifices, eternal ruler of the eternal kingdom, be come or no: that, if he is already come, service may have to be rendered him; if he is not yet come, he may have to be awaited, until by his advent it be manifest that the old Law’s precepts are suppressed, and that the beginnings of the new law ought to arise. And, primarily, we must lay it down that the ancient Law and the prophets could not have ceased, unless He were come who was constantly announced, through the same Law and through the same prophets, as to come.(An Answer to the Jews Chapter VI.—Of the Abolition and the Abolisher of the Old Law. [A.D. 203]).

Continued....

 

[Grailhunter]

Origen
If it be objected to us on this subject that we ourselves are accustomed to observe certain days, as for example the Lord’s day, the Preparation, the Passover, or Pentecost, I have to answer, that to the perfect Christian, who is ever in his thoughts, words, and deeds serving his natural Lord, God the Word, all his days are the Lord’s, and he is always keeping the Lord’s day.(Origen Against Celsus. Book 8 Chapter XXII.)

Cyprian
For because the eighth day, that is, the first day after the Sabbath, was to be that on which the Lord should rise again, and should quicken us, and give us circumcision of the spirit, the eighth day, that is, the first day after the Sabbath, and the Lord’s day, went before in the figure; which figure ceased when by and by the truth came, and spiritual circumcision was given to us.
(Epistle LVIII.2 To Fidus, on the Baptism of Infants. 4)

Victorinus
“The sixth day [Friday] is called parasceve, that is to say, the preparation of the kingdom. . . . On this day also, on account of the passion of the Lord Jesus Christ, we make either a station to God or a fast. On the seventh day he rested from all his works, and blessed it, and sanctified it. On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously, that on the Lord’s day we may go forth to our bread with giving of thanks. And let the parasceve become a rigorous fast, lest we should appear to observe any Sabbath with the Jews . . . which Sabbath he [Christ] in his body abolished”(The Creation of the World [A.D. 300]).

This sixth day is called parasceve, that is to say, the preparation of the kingdom. For He perfected Adam, whom He made after His image and likeness. But for this reason He completed His works before He created angels and fashioned man, lest perchance they should falsely assert that they had been His helpers. On this day also, on account of the passion of the Lord Jesus Christ, we make either a station to God, or a fast. On the seventh day He rested from all His works, and blessed it, and sanctified it. On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously, that on the Lord’s day we may go forth to our bread with giving of thanks. And let the parasceve become a rigorous fast, lest we should appear to observe any Sabbath with the Jews, which Christ Himself, the Lord of the Sabbath, says by His prophets that “His soul hateth;” which Sabbath He in His body abolished, although, nevertheless, He had formerly Himself commanded Moses that circumcision should not pass over the eighth day, which day very frequently happens on the Sabbath, as we read written in the Gospel.(On the Creation of the World p4 )

Eusebius
“[T]he day of his [Christ’s] light . . . was the day of his resurrection from the dead, which they say, as being the one and only truly holy day and the Lord’s day, is better than any number of days as we ordinarily understand them, and better than the days set apart by the Mosaic law for feasts, new moons, and Sabbaths, which the apostle [Paul] teaches are the shadow of days and not days in reality”(Proof of the Gospel 4:16:186 [A.D. 319]).

“For as the name Christians is intended to indicate this very idea, that a man, by the knowledge and doctrine of Christ, is distinguished by modesty and justice, by patience and a virtuous fortitude, and by a profession of piety towards the one and only true and supreme God; all this no less studiously cultivated by them than by us. They did not, therefore, regard circumcision, nor observe the Sabbath, neither do we; neither do we abstain from certain foods, nor regard other injunctions, which Moses subsequently delivered to be observed in types and symbols, because such things as these do not belong to Christians.”(Eusebius Ecclesiastical History, Book 1, Chapter 5 (c. 315 A.D.)

“The Ebionites cherished low and mean opinions of Christ. For they considered Him a plain and common man, and justified only by His advances in virtue, and that He was born of the Virgin Mary, by natural generation. With them the observance of the law was altogether necessary, as if they could not be saved, only by faith in Christ and a corresponding life. These, indeed, thought on the one hand that all of the epistles of the apostles ought to be rejected, calling him an apostate from the law, but on the other, only using the gospel according to the Hebrews, they esteem the others as of little value. They also observe the Sabbath and other disciplines of the Jews, just like them, but on the other hand, they also celebrate the Lord’s days very much like us, in commemoration of His resurrection.”(Eusebius Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Chapter 27 (c. 315 A.D.)

The Sabbath and the rest of the discipline of the Jews they observed just like them, but at the same time, like us, they celebrated the Lord’s days as a memorial of the resurrection of the Saviour. Wherefore, in consequence of such a course they received the name of Ebionites, which signified the poverty of their understanding. For this is the name by which a poor man is called among the Hebrews.( Eusebius Book III. Chapter XXVII.—The Heresy of the Ebionites 5 & 6)

 

[Zachariah.]

I think many are just unaware of the reality surrounding the Bible. They often act as if it was a book that fell from heaven or was a book where it’s authors were possessed by the Holy Ghost losing control of their body and wind and woke up after an automatic trance in awe looking down as a few pages of scriptures.

But that’s not what the Bible claims and it’s not how it happened. People in ancient Mesopotamia were around before Judaism. Even the Bible mentions that Abraham came from a “pagan” nation. Before the first Jewish scripture was written, they shared their beliefs orally. Word of mouth to ear to word of mouth to ear. They shared stories. These stories were very common throughout Mesopotamia. Within the Canaanites there arose a tribe that later on became the Hebrews. They developed a written language and within this group they begin to take the stories that have been passed around for ages and compiling them. Different sects of Jews had different scriptures. In one story god made male and female from the earth on the same day. In another story he made just the male and then split him in half creating a woman and a man after he tried to see if the man found companionship with the animals. In another nearby kingdom, the Story was of a man named Gilgamesh and from the clay the gods make Enkidu who lived in the wild, ate with the animals, and was naked, until he was deceived by a woman and slept with her. Then he craved sex and power. He challenged Gilgamesh but they became best friends. Enkidu got wounded wanting and so Gilgamesh sought out a man who had eternal life given to him after the gods flooded the whole world. This man survived on a ark and told Gilgamesh to find this special plant that grows deep in the ocean. It gives eternal life and you’ll become like the gods. Gilgamesh found it, but a snake tricked him and stole the fruit from him.

The story of Gilgamesh is older than the two separate creation accounts in genesis. People who are “bible only” though ignores all of that. People who are Bible only tends to think that scholarship is evil. So in science. They think they are better equipped to study the Bible on their own. Even though they don’t speak koine Greek, Aramaic or ancient Hebrew.

People who are Bible only don’t realize that the Bible did not create Jewish culture and religious beliefs. The Bible is a snippet of what ancient Jews already culturally and spiritually believed. Just like the Bible did not create their laws. They already had laws and from those laws some were selected and ended up in the Bible. The Bible has roughly 611 laws of do and don’t do. Those 611 in gematria equals to “ The Torah” which means the teachings. That’s because those 611 laws were handpicked.

It would be like if we had a book and that book mentioned “ can’t drive faster than 80 anywhere in America” and so future people believed that we drove around 80 everywhere we went, and when someone pointed out that other texts mention speed limits of 15,25, 55 and so on. But the first group said….. that’s not what the book says. The book only says don’t go past 80. It never mentions 35 speed limits, that’s not part of the book. That’s just secular. So Bible only miss out on all of the context of the Bible beside they ignore the context that formed the Bible.

Because these people so often have to ignore logic, and create forced dots to connect, such as systematic theology and inerrancy, it causes them to be in a constant state of anger. Even if they don’t recognize it. Anything that’s not the same as them they get mad. In America Christianity is part of the greater western tradition of biblical interpretation. They confuse the American Christianity for ancient Judaism and first century Christianity. They often develop conservative lens to understand the English translation of the Bible.

Take gender. Bible only, and usually English Bible only or rather anyone not speaking ancient Hebrew, will often decide there are only two
Genders. But just like with the speed limit example, they miss out on what the ancients actually believed.

More than Two Sexes Exist in Jewish and Christian Scripture: Male, Female, and Intersex in the Image of God.

As a Master of Divinity Student at Meadville Lombard Theological School, I originally wrote this as my midterm paper for a summer 2022 class I took at Chicago Theological Seminary. The class was Ve…

anunnakiray.com

The "Bible" was put together by the Romans. It's a Roman book. They collaborated the new testament based apon their own agenda and slapped it ontop the Torah. I'm not saying that the Romans wrote all the books in the new testament, I'm saying that they are the ones that picked and chose which books where to go in and which ones where not allowed. At this time they had an egenda of controlling the population through religion.

Just do a bit of research on your history. Won't take you long to figure this stuff out. Problem is most people choose to stay ignorant of the truth.

 

[Grailhunter]

The "Bible" was put together by the Romans. It's a Roman book. They collaborated the new testament based apon their own agenda and slapped it ontop the Torah. I'm not saying that the Romans wrote all the books in the new testament, I'm saying that they are the ones that picked and chose which books where to go in and which ones where not allowed. At this time they had an egenda of controlling the population through religion.

Just do a bit of research on your history. Won't take you long to figure this stuff out. Problem is most people choose to stay ignorant of the truth.

You do a bit of research. It is a common misconception that the Ecumenical Councils picked the biblical canon. They simply adopted a popular list.

On the other hand, as time went on the Catholic Church actively destroyed Gnostic and heretical texts.

But just because a text did not make it into the canon, that did not mean that the Catholic Church considered them heretical. A good example is the Shepherd of Hermas, which was a very popular text.

 

[Skovand]

The "Bible" was put together by the Romans. It's a Roman book. They collaborated the new testament based apon their own agenda and slapped it ontop the Torah. I'm not saying that the Romans wrote all the books in the new testament, I'm saying that they are the ones that picked and chose which books where to go in and which ones where not allowed. At this time they had an egenda of controlling the population through religion.

Just do a bit of research on your history. Won't take you long to figure this stuff out. Problem is most people choose to stay ignorant of the truth.

Well the issue with your statement is that there was numerous councils overtime that developed numerous bibles. At one time, almost everyone in the known world outside of far East Asian countries were considered Romans. Much like dozens and dozens of American indigenous tribes, descendants of slaves, immigrants from around the world are Americans. Much of the known world were Romans and Greeks as their nationalities, even if their ethnicities were different.

But outside of that well before Romans got their hands on the tanakh it was well established by numerous sects of Jews. That’s the Christian Old Testament. Now concerning the New Testament even there we have different Christian sects that all landed on the same Bible. The coptic Bible, which may predate the Catholic Bible was not influenced by very much Hellenic culture outside the bits we see from Paul in his epistles. Now Paul was a Roman and he wrote many of the epistles. Though some are most likely just written by others and dedicated to the name of Paul.

Even with the various Jewish sects things like source text debates come into play. JPKE type stuff.

I guess I’m not sure why you would presume I am not very aware of the history of the Bible, of many different bibles and councils, and redactions including in the development of most forms of Christianity like Manicheists, some forms of Mithraic pagan Christianities and as it spread into far east Asia , where things like the Mani Sage xians developed we say scriptures such as possibly in the Bhavisya Purana or in things like the Neptic collections and commentaries of the Philokalia.

Secondly I’m honestly not sure what part of my statement you were countering. Your comment read as a counter argument, but tone can be misjudged and I’m not sure what the rebuttal would have been towards?

​

 

[Michiah-Imla]

What is this?

A copy and paste post by post incremental indoctrination?

 

[Grailhunter]

@Zachariah. @Skovand

With all due respect I think you both sound like conspiracy theorists.

And you are dabbling at the wrong level. When it comes to the integrity of Christianity the Bibles do not matter. As it is now we have physical examples of the Christian texts (New Testament) nearly back to the 2nd century and more and more are being found. As far as the oldest examples I am talking about fragments of various sizes. They still count as validation compared to examples of newer texts but as it is, it is a piecemeal thing, but more and more of them are being found.

Sure there are errors in texts and in the older texts that is how you know you have a good copy, because as these texts were copied people had the temptation to correct spelling and then there were those that added scriptures and stories like the adulterous woman that was brought before Christ. But again with the number of fragments we have and at the rate we are finding more the integrity of the scriptures we have can be validated against these examples.

List of fragmented Christian texts

List of New Testament papyri - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Skovand]

@Zachariah. @Skovand

With all due respect I think you both sound like conspiracy theorists.

And you are dabbling at the wrong level. When it comes to the integrity of Christianity the Bibles do not matter. As it is now we have physical examples of the Christian texts (New Testament) nearly back to the 2nd century and more and more are being found. As far as the oldest examples I am talking about fragments of various sizes. They still count as validation compared to examples of newer texts but as it is, it is a piecemeal thing, but more and more of them are being found.

Sure there are errors in texts and in the older texts that is how you know you have a good copy, because as these texts were copied people had the temptation to correct spelling and then there were those that added scriptures and stories like the adulterous woman that was brought before Christ. But again with the number of fragments we have and at the rate we are finding more the integrity of the scriptures we have can be validated against these examples.

List of fragmented Christian texts

List of New Testament papyri - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Nothing I said even remotely sounds like a conspiracy theory. It’s the opposite. It’s just regular old well established history of the Bibles’s development and of a few various non Roman influenced died off sects of Christianity.

What specifically did I say that was conspiracy like?

 

[Grailhunter]

Nothing I said even remotely sounds like a conspiracy theory. It’s the opposite. It’s just regular old well established history of the Bibles’s development and of a few various non Roman influenced died off sects of Christianity.

What specifically did I say that was conspiracy like?

Why do you sound like a conspiracy theorist?
Because you sound like conspiracy theorist. Using irrelevant information to suggest a negative viewpoint.

 

[Skovand]

Why do you sound like a conspiracy theorist?
Because you sound like conspiracy theorist. Using irrelevant information to suggest a negative viewpoint.

So I’m guessing not only do you not know what a conspiracy theorist is, and not only did what I say confuse you, but you don’t even really know why you think what you do.

What’s the negative viewpoint I’m pushing?
Me and the other guy are saying two completely separate things. He’s saying it was all Roman controlled, and I’m saying it’s not…

What do you even think we are discussing?