Replacement Theology thrown down in 1 verse?

[teamventure]

It's obvious that replacement theology is a lie, but with that does this verse in Romans shoot down the whole heresy in one statement: Romans 11: 1 "I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means!"

 

[Enoch111]

It's obvious that replacement theology is a lie...

Yes, it is a lie, and it illustrates the fact that lies are generally more powerful than the truth.

Replacement Theology is the mistaken idea that the Church has replaced Israel, and that God has no future plans for Israel on earth. It is closely related to Preterism, Amillennialism, and Covenant Theology, and both Catholics and Protestants have held to this false idea for almost 2000 years. Indeed, Martin Luther's hatred for the Jews gave the Nazi's a blueprint for the extermination of the Jews, and for later Anti-Semitism in Europe and North America. Here's what he said:

"What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews":

• "First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools … This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians …"
• "Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed."
• "Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them."
• "Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb …"
• "Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside …"
• "Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them …"
• "Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow … But if we are afraid that they might harm us or our wives, children, servants, cattle, etc., … then let us emulate the common sense of other nations such as France, Spain, Bohemia, etc., … then eject them forever from the country …"

Beginning with Justin Martyr, many of the Early Church Fathers believed that God was finished with Israel. The heretic Marcion also condemned the Jews. Augustine may have had a part in promoting Replacement Theology. But the Catholic Church clearly held to this false teaching, and the Reformers failed to address this error, and adopted the same stance.

For Christians, it is imperative that we properly understand the Abrahamic Covenant and how it relates to a future kingdom of Israel on earth under Christ. But even if we do not go back to the basics (and most Christians have not closely studied the Abrahamic Covenant), Romans chapters 9-11 make it very clear that the Church and Israel are distinct entities.

The Church today consists primarily of Gentiles, and according to Scripture there is a specific number that will enter into the Church (the Body of Christ) before the Resurrection/Rapture. This is called "the fulness of the Gentiles". And once that event occurs, God will resume His dealings with Israel and the Jews after the Second Coming of Christ. All of this is summarized in Romans 11:25-36.

ROMANS 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

 

[teamventure]

Thank you Enoch. I will go back to this and read more.

 

[Stranger]

It's obvious that replacement theology is a lie, but with that does this verse in Romans shoot down the whole heresy in one statement: Romans 11: 1 "I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means!"

Good point.

Note also in (Rom. 8) Paul has explained the spiritual walk and conflict that the believer has in this life. He encourages the believer that no matter what happens, all is for our good. (8:28) He closes with the confidence that nothing will separate us from the love of God. (8:35-39)

But Paul anticipates a question due to these statements. What about the Jews? What about Israel. How can we be confident that God will never leave us when He has apparently left Israel? And Paul explains in (Rom. 9-11), that God has not cast away His people. Thus we can have confidence and be encouraged in our security in Christ.

Stranger

 

[Naomi25]

It's obvious that replacement theology is a lie, but with that does this verse in Romans shoot down the whole heresy in one statement: Romans 11: 1 "I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means!"

Good topic. I would say, however, when discussing a lie, is how often people set up "replacement theology" incorrectly. I listen to quite a few Dispenational teachers, and I don't think I've ever heard them represent what 'we' actually believe correctly. Instead they build straw men and throw terms like "anit-semite" at it, "Satanic". I think it would be sort of nice, to just have an honest conversation about what it actual is that we think the bible says. Without any of those things coming into it. Because really? I am not anti Jew. I am staunchy pro-Israel. And I am not Satanic.

So...to your verse of "proof". Sure, Paul starts off strong! "By no means!" But, by no means why? How? Because of what? We need context here, do we not? And that is what Paul gives us, and has been giving us in the previous 2 Chapters. And of course elsewhere in his Eptistles. What does Paul say immediately after his denial of abandonment by God?

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. -Romans 11:1–5

Paul is clearly saying here that God has not rejected his people, because the remnant still exists. What 'remnant' is this? It is these 'children of promise' that Paul talks about elsewhere, the 'true offspring of Abraham'.

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. -Romans 9:6–8

So...here we see two things; in the OT, not all 'blood' of Abraham were true children of Abraham, only those of faith and 'promise' were.
But, where does that leave us in the NT? What happens then? Paul tells us that as well:

And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. -Galatians 3:29

It's as clear as can be! If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring and heirs of promise, just as those 'children of promise' from the OT. In fact, Paul tells us we become one family in Christ:

But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. -Galatians 3:25–28

The Church has become the one body, in Christ, made up of those "children of promise" and "heirs according to promise". We are the ones attached to the root, the Olive tree that gives life and salvation. Anyone who does not believe in him, is broken off and will not find salvation unless they come to him. But that's exactly what Paul says!

For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; -Romans 11:24–26



But if any of National Israel is to be saved it must be through Christ, which we know, how then do we make up a new, different category for them, apart from "Church of Christ"? After all, we've just seen that the 'Church' only stands for those who are 'heirs of the promise', those who find their salvation in the work of Christ. Can anyone legitimately say that anyone else would come to the Father in a different way? Can anyone in any way prove, biblically, that this is so? Paul seems to work awfully hard to dispell such a notion.

So...replacement theology...or whatever you want to call it...because most people who are supposed to 'believe' in it, actually don't...is only tracking though scripture what scripture itself has said about Israel, Abraham's offspring and those who 'inherit' it.

 

[CoreIssue]

Good topic. I would say, however, when discussing a lie, is how often people set up "replacement theology" incorrectly. I listen to quite a few Dispenational teachers, and I don't think I've ever heard them represent what 'we' actually believe correctly. Instead they build straw men and throw terms like "anit-semite" at it, "Satanic". I think it would be sort of nice, to just have an honest conversation about what it actual is that we think the bible says. Without any of those things coming into it. Because really? I am not anti Jew. I am staunchy pro-Israel. And I am not Satanic.

So...to your verse of "proof". Sure, Paul starts off strong! "By no means!" But, by no means why? How? Because of what? We need context here, do we not? And that is what Paul gives us, and has been giving us in the previous 2 Chapters. And of course elsewhere in his Eptistles. What does Paul say immediately after his denial of abandonment by God?

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. -Romans 11:1–5

Paul is clearly saying here that God has not rejected his people, because the remnant still exists. What 'remnant' is this? It is these 'children of promise' that Paul talks about elsewhere, the 'true offspring of Abraham'.

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. -Romans 9:6–8

So...here we see two things; in the OT, not all 'blood' of Abraham were true children of Abraham, only those of faith and 'promise' were.
But, where does that leave us in the NT? What happens then? Paul tells us that as well:

And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. -Galatians 3:29

It's as clear as can be! If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring and heirs of promise, just as those 'children of promise' from the OT. In fact, Paul tells us we become one family in Christ:

But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. -Galatians 3:25–28

The Church has become the one body, in Christ, made up of those "children of promise" and "heirs according to promise". We are the ones attached to the root, the Olive tree that gives life and salvation. Anyone who does not believe in him, is broken off and will not find salvation unless they come to him. But that's exactly what Paul says!

For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; -Romans 11:24–26



But if any of National Israel is to be saved it must be through Christ, which we know, how then do we make up a new, different category for them, apart from "Church of Christ"? After all, we've just seen that the 'Church' only stands for those who are 'heirs of the promise', those who find their salvation in the work of Christ. Can anyone legitimately say that anyone else would come to the Father in a different way? Can anyone in any way prove, biblically, that this is so? Paul seems to work awfully hard to dispell such a notion.

So...replacement theology...or whatever you want to call it...because most people who are supposed to 'believe' in it, actually don't...is only tracking though scripture what scripture itself has said about Israel, Abraham's offspring and those who 'inherit' it.

I believe replacement theology it's easy to define. It is those who claim all the promises and prophecies concerning Israel given to Abraham and others have been moved to them in place of the nation of Israel.

 

[Naomi25]

I believe replacement theology it's easy to define. It is those who claim all the promises and prophecies concerning Israel given to Abraham and others have been moved to them in place of the nation of Israel.

....goes the party line...
How about this. How about you walk through all those verses I just gave and tell me what they mean instead? Can you do that?

 

[CoreIssue]

....goes the party line...
How about this. How about you walk through all those verses I just gave and tell me what they mean instead? Can you do that?

Simple, they add up to Israel failed to do what I was supposed to do and God has temporarily brought the church into existence as the covenant body doing his well. A body that is composed of both Jews and Gentiles.

It does not mean Gentiles become physical Jews or physical Jews ceased to be physical Jews. Is talking about spiritual Jews and spiritual Gentiles.

But that they will come when the church's raptured and Israel will be restored.

Do not fuse the body of Christ and church. The body of Christ is composed of covenant Israel and covenant Gentiles, meaning church.

When one believes that Christians become national Israel and replace failed Jews that is replacement theology.

The promises made to Abraham through national Israel will be fulfilled.

 

[Naomi25]

Simple, they add up to Israel failed to do what I was supposed to do and God has temporarily brought the church into existence as the covenant body doing his well. A body that is composed of both Jews and Gentiles.

It does not mean Gentiles become physical Jews or physical Jews ceased to be physical Jews. Is talking about spiritual Jews and spiritual Gentiles.

But that they will come when the church's raptured and Israel will be restored.

Do not fuse the body of Christ and church. The body of Christ is composed of covenant Israel and covenant Gentiles, meaning church.

When one believes that Christians become national Israel and replace failed Jews that is replacement theology.

The promises made to Abraham through national Israel will be fulfilled.

No man, walk me through the verses. I walked you through them quite clearly, echoing what Paul says quite clearly. If you want me, or others to think differently, show us. Show us from scripture, not from opinion. Point out the words you think I misunderstood. Point out the phrases you think point to different things. Show me you can do some exegesis with the passages, rather than parrot the party line.

 

[Enoch111]

Paul is clearly saying here that God has not rejected his people, because the remnant still exists. What 'remnant' is this? It is these 'children of promise' that Paul talks about elsewhere, the 'true offspring of Abraham'.

You are simply confusing and confounding the believing remnant of Israel (which are only from the 12 tribes) with the Church (which are from all nations including Israel).

When Paul speaks of a believing remnant, he does not include Gentiles. But you do. When Isaiah speaks of a believing remnant, that is strictly Israel. So what you need to see are two entities side by side: The Church (Jews and Gentiles in on Body) and the believing remnant of Israel (only from the 12 tribes).

 

[Naomi25]

You are simply confusing and confounding the believing remnant of Israel (which are only from the 12 tribes) with the Church (which are from all nations including Israel).

When Paul speaks of a believing remnant, he does not include Gentiles. But you do. When Isaiah speaks of a believing remnant, that is strictly Israel. So what you need to see are two entities side by side: The Church (Jews and Gentiles in on Body) and the believing remnant of Israel (only from the 12 tribes).

Ok. Well, if this is true, can you show me where Paul makes such a distinction? If there is one, don't you think he would? When he does so much work to make "one body" in Christ, you would expect such an important distinction to be at least mentioned. Instead, we see only the "children of promise" from the OT and the Church which is added to that in the NT, making that one "tree", joined to the root.

And it can only be one tree. No one is saved apart from Christ. So....if there are these extra categories, tribes and 'agendas' in the NT...where are they?

 

[Episkopos]

It's obvious that replacement theology is a lie, but with that does this verse in Romans shoot down the whole heresy in one statement: Romans 11: 1 "I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means!"

God's people are invited into the bosom of Christ. The remnant have entered in. God doesn't reject...people reject Him. So then this has nothing to do with God making a people His own who reject Christ.

 

[Dave L]

It's obvious that replacement theology is a lie, but with that does this verse in Romans shoot down the whole heresy in one statement: Romans 11: 1 "I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means!"

But to whom are they reattached upon believing? Christ (biblical Israel)? Or to the unbelievers (secular Israel)?

You replace Biblical Israel with the broken off unbelievers ignoring Paul's words “For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20) (KJV 1900) Only through Jesus can they claim any of the promises.

 

[Waiting on him]

Ok. Well, if this is true, can you show me where Paul makes such a distinction? If there is one, don't you think he would? When he does so much work to make "one body" in Christ, you would expect such an important distinction to be at least mentioned. Instead, we see only the "children of promise" from the OT and the Church which is added to that in the NT, making that one "tree", joined to the root.

And it can only be one tree. No one is saved apart from Christ. So....if there are these extra categories, tribes and 'agendas' in the NT...where are they?

My question is there one tree or two?

 

[CoreIssue]

Ephesians 3:6
New International Version
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Strong's Number: 4789

Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
sugklhronovmoß from (4862) and (2818)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Sugkleronomos 3:767 & 7:787,442 & 1102
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
soong-klay-ron-om'-os Noun Masculine
Definition

1. a fellow heir, a joint heir
2. one who obtains something assigned to himself with others, a joint participant

 

[Enoch111]

Ok. Well, if this is true, can you show me where Paul makes such a distinction?

Paul devotes Romans 9-11 to the matter of Israel (the Israelites, the twelve tribes).

1. Here is how he starts: For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers [THE PATRIARCHS, ABRAHAM, ISAAC, AND JACOB] , and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (9:3-5)

2. Then he quotes Isaiah about a believing remnant: Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. (9:27-29)

3. Then he quotes Isaiah regarding unbelieving Jews: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?... But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. (10:16,20,21)

4. Then he shows that during the Church age, the *good olive tree* consists of believing Jews into which believing Gentiles are grafted as branches from the *wild olive tree*: Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace...For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
(11:5,24).

Because of their unbelief, the majority of Jews have been made spiritually blind, while the Gentiles are being saved.

5. Then he confirms that a specific number of Gentiles will enter into the Church: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (11:25) [This signifies the end of the church age]

6. Then he reverts back to the salvation of Israel (the promised redemption and restoration of Israel) after the Second Coming of Christ, who will come as the Deliverer or Redeemer of Israel: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (11:26,27) This is a direct quotation from Isaiah 59:20,21: And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD...

7. Then he mentions the patriarchs again, since this restoration of Israel is a fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant:As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. [THE PATRIARCHS, ABRAHAM, ISAAC, AND JACOB]

Now it is up to you to study the Abrahamic Covenant and see how it relates to the kingdom of Israel on earth under Christ.

 

[farouk]

My question is there one tree or two?

What would say is that tree and church; tree and Israel, are distinct considerations. 1 Corinthians 10.32.

 

[Enoch111]

What would say is that tree and church; tree and Israel, are distinct considerations. 1 Corinthians 10.32.

Some people are trying to take the tree analogy a little too far. Paul was simply using that to teach Gentiles not be high-minded in relation to unsaved Jews. Gentile Christians simply need to understand that the root (Christ) and the tree of the Church are saved Jews, and Gentiles were added later. Today however, Gentiles are more than Jews within the Church. That still does not allow Gentiles to be high-minded, since God has a plan to establish a redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel on earth.

What needs to be kept in mind is that the Church (Jews and Gentiles in one Body) was hidden from the OT prophets and even the apostles until after Pentecost. And the Church Age will end with the Resurrection/Rapture.

 

[farouk]

Some people are trying to take the tree analogy a little too far. Paul was simply using that to teach Gentiles not be high-minded in relation to unsaved Jews. Gentile Christians simply need to understand that the root (Christ) and the tree of the Church are saved Jews, and Gentiles were added later. Today however, Gentiles are more than Jews within the Church. That still does not allow Gentiles to be high-minded, since God has a plan to establish a redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel on earth.

What needs to be kept in mind is that the Church (Jews and Gentiles in one Body) was hidden from the OT prophets and even the apostles until after Pentecost. And the Church Age will end with the Resurrection/Rapture.

It's very, very humbling for believers of a Gentile background to consider that, while they are now grafted into God gracious purposes of blessing and rejoicing in Gospel light, Jews to whom the oracles of God were first committed have their understanding veiled.

 

[CoreIssue]

Two peoples, church and Israel, to covenants, church in Israel and two heirs.

No church in the OT but Gentiles could join Israel. No Israel in the NT, but Jews can join Gentiles. No church in the tribulation and MK, only Israel, but Gentiles still come to God just as they did in the OT.

Before that there were neither Jews or Gentiles, but everybody could come to God by the law conscience.

Today we have too many people think the church will never end on this earth, but it will. Too many that think Israel is gone forever on this earth but it will return.

There's no way to oversimplify God's plan in the totality of time.

When it is all over and we all enter eternity it will change again.