Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
Yes, early on, the Christian said, "you need to," which controlling the Prospect. Christian lost the conversation there. We have to respect other people's right to choose as fellow human creations.
Rejecting Christ, or rejecting "Christianity"? (the church) ???
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
I as a Calvinist get your point, and it is a good one; we must share Jesus with people, not ideologies. Please don't lump us Calvinists with the cults. I have a wide knowledge of Calvinists in a dozen churches and groups of churches and in our denomination. Not one of them is in the business of selling Calvinism to anyone at all. In fact, sadly, most are unwilling to witness to anyone, having become too melted into the American culture.
Behold
Well-Known Member
When did Jesus ever tell you to follow Calvin?
When did God tell you that Calvinism is what you are to BELIEVE.
A.) NEVER.
Calvinism is a man made concept, that is not NT Truth., and that is not going to change simply because you feel that you need to follow this demonic man's doctrine.
That's pretty heavy-handed.
A little respect for the opinions of others?
Did you Know that @Bruce-Leiter is a former Pastor?
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Behold
Well-Known Member
You are not thinking..
Listen..
When a heresy is exposed, for the benefit of Christians, then this is a "Best case Scenario"..
Calvinism is not an "opinion", its a "Doctrine of Devils".... Hebrews 13:9.
People like this member who SELL IT, are trying to lead Christians into Deception.
You are "oblivious" to any of this, because you yourself teach the Cross Rejecting Heresy of "Universalism".
Let me show you something....
Satan created Calvinism....and the Ministers of Calvinism, are doing His Work.
Just like like the "ministers of universalism" are doing His work.
2 Corin 11:15
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
Behold, most Calvinists, including me, do not "follow Calvin." We have inspected Calvin's writings and have found them to be biblical according to the Bible's own teachings and assumptions. I was not a Calvinist until I was a student at Calvin College, a time when I compared those teachings to other ones that I had been taught and to the Bible. I came to the conclusion that the Calvinist beliefs were biblical. No one told me that Calvinism was what I was supposed to believe. Prove your statements about Calvinism as being man-made apart from the Bible.
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
Behold, do you believe in the Trinity, the divine and human natures of Jesus, God's inspiration of the Bible, God's creation of the universe and humanity, the fall of humanity into sinful rebellion, the existence and rebellion of Satan and the fallen angels (demons), the existence of heaven and hell, Jesus' death for the atonement and justification of our sins, and his bodily resurrection for our new life, beginning with our new birth. If you don't believe them, you are outside biblical Christianity.
We assume and live by all of these doctrines because the Bible assumes them as true.
Do you really believe that Satan has inspired these beliefs? He didn't.
Please stop accusing us of believing doctrines that we don't. We believe and live by God's Word, as all true Christians do.
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
You have never proven your accusations specifically with any evidence about the beliefs of Calvinism or the Reformed faith except broad generalizations. Get specific. What specific doctrines are unbiblical "deception? How specifically is it the "Doctrine of Devils"?
Behold
Well-Known Member
"Behold"..., i dont really follow Calvin"........ I just call myself a Calvinist on a "christian" forum, because .. well, you figure it out behold'.
I have.
God makes : Christians
Calvin makes : Calvinists
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
Behold
Well-Known Member
Calvinism, as Hyper Calvinism (TULIP)... is a "man made doctrine of Devils'... Hebrews 13:9.... that strictly and absolutely teaches the demonic LIE, that Jesus, if He was here today.. would tell some people who asked Him...
Q.) = "Jesus will you PLEASE save me"........
And Jesus replied.....(according to "the 5 points of Demonic Calvinism".........>>"NO, i can't save you, as TULIP has decided that you are not one of the ELECT". "So, see you in Hell"... "and your mother also"...... and never mind what the NT actually teaches in John 3:16.
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
Explain in detail what is unbiblical about the teaching of election in Calvinism and where you find such a dialogue in the Canons of Dort.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Ok.
John Calvin, was a very poor bible student.. And Here is how He Created Calvinism.. with the help of a Demon.
John Calvin did not understand that the "Foreknowledge" Of God,... is simply and only that God knows everything before it happens next.
So, what Calvin did, is he redefined "God's Foreknowledge", as "God pre-destines everything".
See that?
That is the core ROT, the complete twisting of ONE Concept in the NT.. that Calvin abuses to create all of his false Theology.
What He did was RE-DEFINE... "God's KNOWING Everything before it happens next".. .as = "GOD CAUSING it, all, to happen next".
See that TWIST on the definition?
Calvin redefined "KNOWING all" into "PRE-Destining All", and from that demonic redefining.. Calvin and the evolutionist's of Calvin's doctrine.... just kept on going, kept on twisting verses, and eventually made it even more Cross Denying and Satanic, as the finalized end result : HYPER-Calvinism. "TULIP". "the Five Points" of Calvinism.
A.) Calvin redefined God "KNOWING all" as God Causing All. And that is redefining "God's Foreknowing all"... as "predestining all" or "God's sovereignty"... And then they also falsely teach that you have no Free Will, as by teaching that = they can finalize their false doctrine like this...
Because you have no Free will, and because God pre-destines everything....then you :
1.) Will be Chosen, to believe......vs, you giving God your Faith.
2.). You are caused to become a Christian, and you have no CHOICE
3.) Some of you are chosen by God.. to go to Hell and then burn in the Lake of Fire. (You are not allowed to Trust in Christ).
See those 3 lies?
They are ALL created by redefining "Foreknowledge".. as "pre-destined".. and then they remove your free will, so that their doctrine of devil's seems to all work together.
Yet, its all just a clever lie.. a terribly clever lie that insults God's Grace and Convicts God of being Evil, while denying The Cross, also.
Now, i want to show you the Hyper Calvinism verse from Romans... that they will use against the Truth to try to to prove that some people are born to be refused God's Son's Salvation.
And that is the most Satanic part of Calvinism.........because it Denies The Cross.
Reader.....Here is part of the verse that the Deceived Calvinist will try to use to try to falsely prove that God wont allow some people to trust in Christ.
First You must read this Verse., to get the CONTEXT of the Hyper Calvinist verse that i'll show you, down below.
John 3:36.
Pull it up. Do a search.. open a BIBLE....and use the KJV... if possible.
These are unbelievers, who are under God's Wrath.... UNTIL they trust in Christ.
So, understand that the wrath of God..... is ON every unbeliever, until they trust in Christ and are rescued from Damnation.
And here is the thing about this situation......Its God's LONG-SUFFERING that is why these who are "under damnation" are given more time.
God is "not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance... = Believe in Jesus".
See that?
God would that "ALL"...........believe in Jesus.
So, keeping that in mind.. that ALL UNBELIEVERS are under God's Wrath,...John 3:36.... until they Trust in Christ and are DELIVERED from that Wrath... now look at this partial verse.. that John Calvinist's twist, abuse, misuse, and lie about...on Forums, and from Pulpits, and on TV, and in commentaries and in books.
1.) "The Vessels fitted for Destruction.."""'
So, that says that someone is "fitted for destruction".
Now that Destruction, is that they will end up in HELL.......that is the Destruction.. its "Eternal Damnation".
Now, John 3:36, just told you, who these Vessels are, and why they are under God's Wrath..... UNTIL.......What??? ??????????????????????
Until they Trust in Christ....and are rescued... REDEEMED from Eternal Judgement. Delivered from God's Wrath.
So, those are the "fitted ones"...the "Vessels"......Who are ALL under God's Wrath...as "Vessels fitted for Damnation"... UNTIL THEY DO WHAT? ???
A.) Believe in Jesus.
So, that verse is saying this.....>>"every one of us....You, me.. us ALL.....were under the wrath of God.. because of our unbelief, until we trusted in Christ" and were SAVED from that Eternal Wrath.
We, ALL of us, were the "vessels fitted for Destruction" and not because we were "chosen" to go to Hell, as LYING JOHN CALVINISM Taught its deceived Disciples to believe.
See that?
That is very easy understand, because its TRUE.
Now, let me show you Calvin's LIE.. the LIE OF Hyper-Calvinism.
This Lie is simply that some are chosen by God, to never be able to believe in Jesus.. so they are CAUSED by GOD to end up as the "Vessels fitted for Destruction".. according to LYING JOHN CALVINISM.
See that Lie?
And that Satanic Theology... is created by changing "Foreknowledge" into "pre-destined". And then Hyper-Calvinism refines this lie by teaching that because you have no Free Will, you can't of yourself trust in Christ.
So, lying Hyper Calvinism, has you ... pre-destined to be a """ Vessel fitted for Destruction"", by eliminating your free will, by changing "God's Foreknowledge" into "God predestined everything".. ..so that you now become predestined to go to Hell, and have no Free will to believe in Christ.
So, this ends up as God choosing you for Hell, and that is unbelievably Satanic, as a Theology, as it denies that Jesus died for everyone..John 3:16... and then Blames God for it.
A.) = That is Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, as a Theology.
Now let me show you the most important part of the "vessels fitted" verse so that a Calvinist can't deceive you with it.
The Romans verse says... that God has "long-suffering" toward these "Vessels".
And that is related to this verse...found in 2 Peter
Notice it carefully.
""""The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is LONGSUFFERING toward us, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.""""""
See that? That verse is written to every unbeliever........ALL of them.., and we were ALL that at one time.........ALL of us... every person.
And when you read the "vessels fitted for Destruction".. it says the same thing.....that God is "" LONGSUFFERING toward them...""
So, reader, THINK......= if these "vessels fitted destruction" are Pre-Destined before they are born to go to Hell and can't Trust in Christ.... because God wont choose them..according to LYING HYPER CALVINISM.....then why is God "Long-Suffering Toward them???..= exactly as He is "longsuffering" toward "US"... in Peter's verse. ??
Its because God is not pre-destining anyone to Hell, as if He had chosen some for Hell, He would not care if they Go...He would not be "Longsuffering" toward them.....at all.....and yet, He is........longsuffering toward these "vessels fitted for detruction" because these are just UNBELIEVERS, who are in John 3:36. And, READER.... that was ALL OF US.. until we were Saved. We were ALL the "vessels fitted for destruction" until we TRUSTED IN CHRIST..
= No one is pre-destined for Hell.
= No one is pre-destined to not be able to trust in Christ.
Reader...
God is not a Calvinist.
Jesus is not a Calvinist.
Calvinism and Hyper Calvinism, is a Cross Denying SATANIC Theology.
God creates : Christians
John Calvinism, is a ""Doctrine of Devils"", Hebrews 13:9...... and His deceived Disciples feel a inner compulsion, an obsession to try lead you to believe it, and become one.
I believe in election… but it’s a byproduct that i lean towards universalism and so I think everyone is elected. Not just humans, but every being to ever exist across all universes.
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
Behold, prove to me that a demon helped Calvin create Calvinism. John Calvin did not believe that God caused everything to happen. He did not CAUSE evil to happen through the devil or in people's lives. They decided to be rebellious against him and are completely responsible for their self-centered choices.
He does PERMIT such things to happen only with the purpose of enabling and blessing his true believers, as in his limiting Satan to do only so much in Job's life, which he didn't allow Satan to end. Therefore, God is not responsible for sin and evil in his creation.
You start out wrong. "Foreknowledge" says that God loved believers before ("fore-loved") he created anything, because Romans 8:19-20 says,
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Obviously, Paul is talking only about believers in this passage. I tell you that God has his plan for his whole creation and that at the same time humans are fully responsible for every aspect of their lives before their Creator-Judge.
How do you know that foreknowledge only means that God knows ahead of time everything that happens? Is that your secular dictionary meaning or the Bible's meaning. Show me the Bible passages on which you base your meaning.
Your "vessels prepared for destruction" is found in Romans 9:22. Here is the context about God's choices of people that quotes Scripture. Tell me that God does not choose some people to save and pass others by
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
Rom 9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
He does PERMIT such things to happen only with the purpose of enabling and blessing his true believers, as in his limiting Satan to do only so much in Job's life, which he didn't allow Satan to end. Therefore, God is not responsible for sin and evil in his creation.
You start out wrong. "Foreknowledge" says that God loved believers before ("fore-loved") he created anything, because Romans 8:19-20 says,
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Obviously, Paul is talking only about believers in this passage. I tell you that God has his plan for his whole creation and that at the same time humans are fully responsible for every aspect of their lives before their Creator-Judge.
How do you know that foreknowledge only means that God knows ahead of time everything that happens? Is that your secular dictionary meaning or the Bible's meaning. Show me the Bible passages on which you base your meaning.
Your "vessels prepared for destruction" is found in Romans 9:22. Here is the context about God's choices of people that quotes Scripture. Tell me that God does not choose some people to save and pass others by
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
Rom 9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
I obtained this book that features a comprehensive summary of various representations of hell, including Augustine's views on the subject. The author, who worked as a grave digger, financed his college education and compiled all this material. Im personally glad that hell has been taken care of by the Victory of the Lord Yeshua.
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