Re: Sexually Immoral

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Grailhunter

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The Bible doesn’t need to outlaw polygamy line by line — Jesus already restored the original model in Matthew 19:4–6, quoting Genesis 2:24: “The two shall become one flesh.” Not three. Not seven. The early church affirmed monogamy as the covenant standard, and Paul reinforced this when he said elders must be “the husband of one wife” (1 Timothy 3:2). Your historical observations don’t justify lawlessness. They show how far man drifted from the standard Christ re-established. What you're preaching isn't truth — it's a license to sin, dressed in footnotes and distraction.

Yahweh defined marriage without a wedding ceremony in Genesis and then the Mosaic Law regulated polygamy and concubinage. And then the scriptures never ended the practice.

Christians were allowed to practice polygamy and the Apostle Paul gave the one exception. Deacons could only have one wife.
Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households. 1st timothy 3:12


The argument that “living together isn’t a sin” collapses under Paul’s teaching in 1 Corinthians 6:16–17. He makes it clear that sexual union creates a spiritual bond, whether or not a ceremony took place: “Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, ‘The two will become one flesh.’” Paul isn’t just talking about prostitution — he’s warning that sex without covenant binds you to sin and defiles the body, which is meant to be the temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 6:19–20). The issue isn’t whether a couple “stays together” after sex — it’s whether the union was entered into before God, with accountability, covenant, and holiness. Anything less than that is porneía — and no amount of historical trivia will change what the scriptures plainly declare.

A couple that forms a marrige by their union is not about prostitution. The word wed or wedding does not occur in the scriptures.
 
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Grailhunter

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Your entire argument collapses under one Greek word: porneía. It appears all throughout the New Testament and is consistently translated as “fornication” or “sexual immorality” — defined as any sexual activity outside of covenant marriage. Jesus uses it in Matthew 5:32, Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:18, and it’s one of the four foundational prohibitions for Gentile believers in Acts 15:20. You can’t erase that word or redefine it to fit your argument. Whether or not wedding ceremonies are cultural is irrelevant — what matters is covenant. Hebrews 13:4 is explicit: “Marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled: but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.”

Fornication
This is a prime example of why we should not make up words and stick them in the Bible, because they cause misunderstandings and false beliefs that can span over a thousand years. The word fornication or is not in the scriptures nor is its definition. It is a scam that is a reflection of Christianity’s growing hatred of sex and women after the biblical period.

This stems indirectly from the Greek word porneia means prostitute or associated with prostitutes. Which was not a negative term in the Greco-Roman culture. But the Christian religion thought differently. The New Testament was written mostly in Greek, a Pagan Language. When the Apostles were writing the New Testament they were tasked with using a Pagan language that did not reflect Christian morals. So the Christians adjusted the words and definitions to convey their thoughts. There are variances to the Greek word porneia that define various sexual activities…. all of which are in the scriptures and all of which Christianity considers sinful.

The false beliefs associated with the word fornication start a long long time ago. If you noticed there was no wedding ceremony or vows in Eden. And then you can read the rest of the Bible and find no requirement for wedding ceremonies or vows. Yep! That is right the Bible does not state a requirement for a wedding ceremony to be married in the Old or New Testament. People formed marriages as God described… For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. Genesis 2:24 Neither the Old or New Testament state a requirement for wedding ceremonies. It was about1500 years after the biblical period that Christianity developed a requirement for weddings ceremonies and vows, and that is a fact.

Christianity has lumped a lot of Greek words for sex acts into the word Fornication as seen in some definitions of the word below, but the word does not appear in any scripture.

Some examples:
noun
πορνεία
prostitution, whoring, harlotry, whoredom,
συνουσία
fornication, coition, intercourse, copulation

From the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance
illicit sexual intercourse
adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18 sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11-12 The worship of idols of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols etc

But Fornication is not a translational error it is man-made word that made its way into the 16th and 17th century translations of the Bible, but still this word did not originate in these Bibles.
When the Greek text was translated into the Latin Vulgate, (circa 404 AD) the word pornia and its variants were translated to the Latin word fornicatio. Which is associated with prostitutes and arches.

Then translated into the English word fornication and was used in the original Tyndale, Geneva, and King James Version of the Bible.

Like I said, part of the problem was that the New Testament was an attempt to write Christian moral standards using a Pagan language…ie the Greek language that did not have words that reflected Christian standards. The Greeks - Romans did not have the same moral standards that Christians had. For example; If you told a Roman solider that he sinned, it meant that his arrow missed the target….no moral implication. So the Christians writers were taking Greek words and adjusting them to have moral definitions. Why? In the Greco-Roman culture various sexual activities were not considered immoral. It did not matter if it was temple prostitutes or orgies. Married Roman men were free to have sex with who they wanted…female or male. By Christian standards this was a disgusting arrangement. In the Roman culture adultery was not a sin, it was illegal to have sex with someone else’s wife. So Christian writers were tasked with conveying sexual morality from a culture that was without sexual morals and their language reflected the absence of words to describe sexual immorality. Now was all this confusing to the translators of the scriptures, it is a matter of debate.

Like I said, Porneia in the Greek society is mostly a reference to prostitution which was not wrong in their culture. For example pornography, is an ancient Greek word that means writings or paintings of prostitutes and many Roman homes had murals of sex acts and or prostitutes on their walls.

But in the scriptures the Greek word Porneia and its variances appear several times. In all cases the Christian writers were using them as some form of sexual immorality.
Examples:
πορνείας·… porneias … Sexual immorality
πορνείᾳ … porneiai … Sexual immorality in the plural
πορνεῦσαι … To commit sexual immorality involving sexual acts
πορνείαν … Idolatry involving sexual acts
πόρνος … A person that practices sexual immorality
πόρνοι … Refering to as a group of the sexually immoral
πορνεῖαι … inflectional, more or less dirty thoughts

Appearing in these scriptures….
Matthew 5:32, 5:19, Mark 7:21, John 8:4, Acts 15:20, 5:29, 21:25, Romans 1:29* 1st Corinthians 5:1, 5:9, 5:10, 6:13, 6:18, 7:2, 10:8, 2nd Corinthians 12:21, Galatians 5:19, Ephesians 5:3, Colossians 3:5, 1st Thessalonians 4:3, Jude 1:7, Revelation 2:14, 2:14, 2:20, 2:21, 9:21, 14:8, 17:2, 17:4, 18:3, 18:19, 19:2

But in no case does it simply apply to two unmarried people having sex, for a very good reason. The New Testament does not have a lot to say about romantic love. But to say that Porneia, is sex outside of wedlock would be inaccurate, since the Bible has no requirements for wedding ceremonies or vows. Marriages were formed by the union and most of the time in early Christianity a lady’s father would chose who they would marry, as was practiced in most Old Testament unions of marriages.

The evolution of the word Fornicate or Fornication
Fornicate comes from a Latin root word, the term fornix means arch or vaulted ceiling. In Ancient Rome, it was known that prostitutes would wait for their customers out of the hot sun or rain in areas that had cover… vaulted ceilings. The Latin word fornix became a euphemism for brothels and the Latin verb fornicare referred to a man visiting a brothel. Meaning a man being serviced by prostitutes.

Of course then St. Jerome’s Latin Vulgate translation of the scriptures used a variant of that….fornicatio and lumped all the Greek variances of porneia under that word.

The first recorded use of the word fornicate in English is in the 14th century in a poem called the Cursor Mundi.

The first English Bibles to use the word fornication was the Bishop’s Bible---Church of England 1568, the Catholic Bible called the Douay-Rheims Bible (early 1600’s) and then the other Protestant Bibles followed suite examples; the Tyndale Bible Geneva Bible and the King James Version of the Bible, 16th and 17th centuries respectively.

So bottom line, marriages in the Bible were formed by the union. This is a biblical and historical fact. Even if the Hebrew families held a marriage celebration, there was no Hebrew word for wed or wedding nor any biblically stated requirement for ceremonies or vows....just the Bridal Chamber where the couple consummated their marriage. Modern Jews still use a symbolic bridal chamber that is more of a canopy.

The fact that it is the union that forms a marriage still exists in civil laws. In most states and countries a couple that does not have sex after the wedding ceremony (consummate) can get their marriage annulled.

Fornication is a well known case study in how man-made terms and phrases that are false usually develop into false beliefs and skew the meaning of the scriptures and perceptions and as in this case can cause sin. The word fornication is one of the reasons why a lot of Christians believe that wedding ceremonies were required in the Old and New Testament.

For example; a man and a woman fall in love and have sex and then from there on remain together, from the biblical perceptive, they are married. But Christians, believing various false beliefs can condemn them because of what they think Fornication means…two people that have not had a wedding ceremony having sex and living together, ergo the term shacking up.

Then people believing they are “living in sin” may make the couple feel unwelcome in church and could turn them away from Christianity. Which are the only sins that occurred here. The sin of gossip, the sin of falsely accusing people of a sin, and the sin of turning them away Christianity. And then calling their children bastards.

continued
 
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Grailhunter

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Had a preacher tell me that the normal attraction that couples in love feel for each other is lust and so all marriages are formed by lust. That would be completely wrong. God described the process that is correct…. For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. God designed men and women to be attracted to each other and form marriages and families. No sin occurs in the process that God designed.

Then according to Augustine (circa 354-430 AD) the sex act being sinful passed the sin of Adam and Eve to the babies, calling it original sin. Which is another manmade term that does not appear in the Bible, but has been taught to Christians. Original Sin is another false belief. This produced the belief that babies can go to hell.

It is better explained that Adam and Eve and their offspring promulgated the nature of man to be sinful. Mankind took after Adam and Eve’s character but it was not sex that caused it, no more than a son having his father’s nose.

It is not because sex is evil that caused the son’s nose…a trait of his parent.

Fornication is a good study into how man-made terms and phrases that are not in the Bible, can become popular and can introduce false beliefs that can remain for centuries and cause sin, misery, atrocities, and death not to mention, skewing the meaning of the scriptures and the perception of history.

Of course adultery and casual sex is a sin, ie one night stands and or whore mongering, prostitution, which are sins that are mostly defined in the Bible and in general are defined in modern translations as sexual immorality.
 
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The Gospel of Christ

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Yahweh defined marriage without a wedding ceremony in Genesis and then the Mosaic Law regulated polygamy and concubinage. And then the scriptures never ended the practice.

Christians were allowed to practice polygamy and the Apostle Paul gave the one exception. Deacons could only have one wife.
Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households. 1st timothy 3:12




A couple that forms a marrige by their union is not about prostitution.


Whether it’s prostitution, casual sex, polygamy, or so-called “spiritual unions” outside of covenant, the underlying issue is the same: it’s a rejection of God’s design. The moment someone tries to separate sexual intimacy from covenantal accountability, they’re stepping into the same rebellion — just dressed in a different cultural wrapper. Paul doesn’t single out prostitution to say only that is sin; he uses it as a clear case to teach a universal principle: sexual union outside of covenant defiles the body (1 Cor 6:16–20). The defilement isn't based on payment — it’s based on disobedience.

Jesus made it clear in Matthew 19:4–6 that God’s design was never polygamy or casual union. It was always one man, one woman, one covenant. That model was twisted throughout history, but Christ didn’t affirm the twist — He corrected it. And Paul didn’t carve out exceptions in the early church; he held elders up as examples of faithfulness, not outliers. “The husband of one wife” isn’t just a rule for leadership — it’s a reflection of God's restored ideal in a fallen world.

So no — you can’t hide behind history, or technicalities, or rebranded definitions of “union” to avoid the truth. Scripture doesn’t give license for what God never blessed. And holiness doesn’t evolve with culture — sin just gets better marketing.

 
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Grailhunter

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Whether it’s prostitution, casual sex, polygamy, or so-called “spiritual unions” outside of covenant, the underlying issue is the same: it’s a rejection of God’s design. The moment someone tries to separate sexual intimacy from covenantal accountability, they’re stepping into the same rebellion — just dressed in a different cultural wrapper. Paul doesn’t single out prostitution to say only that is sin; he uses it as a clear case to teach a universal principle: sexual union outside of covenant defiles the body (1 Cor 6:16–20). The defilement isn't based on payment — it’s based on disobedience.

The Mosaic Laws were created by God and the Mosaic Laws regulated polygamy and concubinage.


Jesus made it clear in Matthew 19:4–6 that God’s design was never polygamy or casual union. It was always one man, one woman, one covenant. That model was twisted throughout history, but Christ didn’t affirm the twist — He corrected it. And Paul didn’t carve out exceptions in the early church; he held elders up as examples of faithfulness, not outliers. “The husband of one wife” isn’t just a rule for leadership — it’s a reflection of God's restored ideal in a fallen world.

In Matthew chapter 19 Christ is talking to Jews about the Mosaic Laws and divorce and there is no telling how many wives those Jews had.
 

The Gospel of Christ

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The Mosaic Laws were created by God and the Mosaic Laws regulated polygamy and concubinage.




In Matthew chapter 19 Christ is talking to Jews about the Mosaic Laws and divorce and there is no telling how many wives those Jews had.


Yes — Jesus was speaking to Jews. But He wasn’t affirming their culture. He was rebuking it.

In Matthew 19:4–6, Jesus doesn't just comment on Moses. He goes all the way back to Eden — to God's original design:
“Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning made them male and female… and the two shall become one flesh?”

He doesn’t say "three," "seven," or "as many as custom allows." He quotes Genesis 2:24, the very foundation of marriage: one man, one woman, one flesh, one covenant. That is the design — and Jesus reestablishes it as the New Covenant norm.

The Mosaic Law regulated polygamy and divorce because of sin (Matt 19:8), not because God desired it. Jesus explicitly calls it a concession to hardened hearts, not a divine blueprint. That’s not cultural — that’s moral correction.

So yes, some of those Jews may have had multiple wives. And what did Jesus do?
He called them back to the garden.
Back to covenant.
Back to the standard God always intended.

Anything else is just dressing up disobedience in historical trivia.
 

Grailhunter

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He doesn’t say "three," "seven," or "as many as custom allows." He quotes Genesis 2:24, the very foundation of marriage: one man, one woman, one flesh, one covenant. That is the design — and Jesus reestablishes it as the New Covenant norm.

Make me repeat myself.
Genesis defines the process of how a man and a woman form a marrage without a wedding ceremony and when God creates the Mosaic Law He regulates polygamy and concubinage. And then Christ and the Apostles never say to stop polygamy and history proves they continued to practice polygamy. And even during the Protestant reform Martin Luther says he cannot condemn polygamy because the scriptures do not stop polygamy.
 

Grailhunter

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The Mosaic Law regulated polygamy and divorce because of sin (Matt 19:8), not because God desired it. Jesus explicitly calls it a concession to hardened hearts, not a divine blueprint. That’s not cultural — that’s moral correction.

Matthew 19:8 does not define polygamy as sinful. In fact no scripture associates polygamy with sin. Abraham was considered rightious and he had a wife and a concubine.
 

Jay Ross

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Matthew 19:8 does not define polygamy as sinful. In fact no scripture associates polygamy with sin. Abraham was considered righteous and he had a wife and a concubine.

Actually, Abraham had three wives. Sarah, Sahar's hand maiden, Hagar, who Sarah had given to Abraham, as a wife, Genesis 16:3, so that Abraham would have a son, and a third wife, Keturah, Genesis 25:1-6, who Abraham married after Sahar had died.

Shalom
 

The Gospel of Christ

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Matthew 19:8 does not define polygamy as sinful. In fact no scripture associates polygamy with sin. Abraham was considered rightious and he had a wife and a concubine.

Let me clarify once more — because at this point, you’re not arguing with me, you’re arguing with Jesus.

Matthew 19:4–6 isn’t a side comment. It’s Jesus Christ directly reasserting the Edenic model:

“He who created them at the beginning made them male and female… and the two shall become one flesh.”

Not three. Not as many as culture permits. Two.

He goes on in verse 8 to say that Moses allowed divorce "because of the hardness of your hearts," but from the beginning it was not so. The same logic applies to polygamy. Just because God regulated a broken system doesn’t mean He endorsed it. He also regulated slavery — are you defending that too?

Abraham’s righteousness wasn’t because of polygamy — it was in spite of it. Every time polygamy appears in scripture, it brings jealousy, division, and judgment (Hagar and Sarah, Jacob’s wives, David’s household, Solomon’s downfall). Not once is it called blessed.

And as for church history — Luther said he couldn’t “condemn” polygamy because the culture was confused, not because it was godly. He also believed in baby baptism and state-run churches. Shall we canonize that too?

Jesus didn’t build His church on Abraham’s household structure.
He built it on God’s original covenant design: one man, one woman, one flesh.
Everything else is justifying rebellion with footnotes.
 

Grailhunter

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Actually, Abraham had three wives. Sarah, Sahar's hand maiden, Hagar, who Sarah had given to Abraham, as a wife, Genesis 16:3, so that Abraham would have a son, and a third wife, Keturah, Genesis 25:1-6, who Abraham married after Sahar had died.

Shalom
Not at the same time.
 

Grailhunter

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Let me clarify once more — because at this point, you’re not arguing with me, you’re arguing with Jesus.

Matthew 19:4–6 isn’t a side comment. It’s Jesus Christ directly reasserting the Edenic model:

“He who created them at the beginning made them male and female… and the two shall become one flesh.”

Not three. Not as many as culture permits. Two.

At the time there was only one woman. The scriptures do not say and men can only have one wife and Mosaic Law which was created by the same God regulated polygamy and concubinage. And I might add that God took credit for David's wives.
 

Grailhunter

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He goes on in verse 8 to say that Moses allowed divorce "because of the hardness of your hearts," but from the beginning it was not so. The same logic applies to polygamy. Just because God regulated a broken system doesn’t mean He endorsed it. He also regulated slavery — are you defending that too?

The scriptures do not indicate the same logic applies to polygamy. At no point do the scriptures indicate that polygamy is wrong, sinful, or broken.

Again making me repeat myself.....I consider polygamy, concubinage, and slavery as wrong from the beginning. God had a different opinion. But again trying impose what we like and dislike on the scriptures does not produce truth.
 

amigo de christo

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Again..the Living testimony of God..witnesses to our spirit that homosexuality is wrong..
And as you know dear sister , What we hear from GOD would never contradicts His words .
Thus We see too where it is written about man with man or women with women .
As the SPIRIT bids us would never contradict GOD . FOR HE IS HIS SPIRIT .
Just sound those praises out unto the LORD .
What has been written upon the hearts and the minds of his sheep
Fullfills and trangresses not . aint that lovely sister .
HOW GOD put it into our hearts TO DO what is pleasing to HIM .
The words in scrip would confirm this .
THus as you said whatever we hear we confirm by scriptures .
But as you know many live by emotions and not the SPIRIT
and they do beleive they hear from the SPIRIT
and yet what they heard is not confirmed by the scrips , but rather omits it does the opposite .
 
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Grailhunter

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And as for church history — Luther said he couldn’t “condemn” polygamy because the culture was confused, not because it was godly. He also believed in baby baptism and state-run churches. Shall we canonize that too?

Absolutely not....you are making that up.
Read the Estate of Marriage.
 

amigo de christo

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We should know in our spirit / inner man the morals. of God..as it’s Born Again..there is no sin in God...therefore fornication is a No,NO!

To engage in premarital or extramarital sex, before or outside of marriage, is to sin in God's sight. That is precisely the point of Hebrews 13:4, a verse often referred to in this kind of discussion.

4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. 4 Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.
A lovely reminder i was led to give us today my dear sister .
SPIRIT LED .
And my how the SPIRIT led me right into the bible to learn and continue to be reminded .
Isnt that lovely sister .
The SPIRIT speaks to the heart of the Sheep and GOD has always known what is best for us .
This too is why that same SPIRIT would have both peter and paul
to write to the church about the wonderful reminder to be learning the scriptures as well .
Its so lovely and pure .
And as by grace we both know , THAT WHEN THE SPIRIT speaks to us
It will never contradict that which was written for our learning .
IN fact the SCRIPS would CONFIRM what the SPIRIT said .
But as we both know many can cliam to be hearing from the SPIRIT
and yet upon real simple examination of said scrips , WE SEE ITS NOT THE SPIRIT they heard from at all .
Be encouraged dear sister . And it dont matter what anyone might say about ya , You know i loves ya .
And no matter what folks say about me , it matters not , What matters to me is
THAT WE SIMPLY HONOR HE WHO SAVED US in all things that we do and say and that souls are edified and souls are saved .
 

Ritajanice

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For me it's more like I just habitually discuss the issues of life with God. I don't see anything in life that doesn't need prayer, my dependency is on Him.

And fully agreed, we test our thoughts and feelings against the Bible, not the other way around!

Much love!
100% Amen!!...Praise God that we have him to discuss all things with......
 

amigo de christo

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The scriptures do not indicate the same logic applies to polygamy. At no point do the scriptures indicate that polygamy is wrong, sinful, or broken.

Again making me repeat myself.....I consider polygamy, concubinage, and slavery as wrong from the beginning. God had a different opinion. But again trying impose what we like and dislike on the scriptures does not produce truth.
Correct the scriptures do not condmen polygamy .
However take notice
that any leader to be appointed was to be the husband of ONE WIFE only .
There is reason for that .
Now the RCC took the complete opposite and said no man who has a wife can etc
How ignorant was that . cause paul had no wife yet he led the churches .
Many wives can take the heart away from GOD .
But it was not a sin to have more than one wife . BETTER , however by FAR to have ONLY one wife .
I believe the church was brought back to this . THOUGH again they didnt condmen polygamy .
TRULY TRULY it is best to be single , ONLY for the reason of distractions . HOWEVER not all
can do so . Thus to avoid fornication let those marry ONE Wife .
Its almost like the grand picture . JESUS the BRIDEGROOM , THE CHURCH the BRIDE .
one man one wife . I truly beleive that is how we should do this .