Question for Amill's only

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ewq1938

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The bible in verse 7 shows the end of the binding and verse 5 shows us that the reigning ends in verses 11-12

No, it doesn't. You have convinced yourself of this but the actual scriptures don't show this.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Both describe the thousand years ending, then other things that shall take place after. Satan's imprisonment (not only the chain binding) ends AND the rest of the dead will resurrect only after the thousand years has ended which is indeed what happens in Rev 20.

Nothing here supports your two thousand year periods theory and it does not support your idea that the "reigning" ends in verses 11-12.

So who is the rest of the dead?

Those not resurrecting with the first group of the dead to come back to life.


When do they come to life?

When does revelation chapter 20 show the rest of the dead come to life?

This is the same question repeated. They obviously come back to life in the GWTJ verses. Neither question is pertinent to your other incorrect theories and show just how much confusion you have on all these verses.
 

Marty fox

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No, it doesn't. You have convinced yourself of this but the actual scriptures don't show this.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Both describe the thousand years ending, then other things that shall take place after. Satan's imprisonment (not only the chain binding) ends AND the rest of the dead will resurrect only after the thousand years has ended which is indeed what happens in Rev 20.

Nothing here supports your two thousand year periods theory and it does not support your idea that the "reigning" ends in verses 11-12.



Those not resurrecting with the first group of the dead to come back to life.




This is the same question repeated. They obviously come back to life in the GWTJ verses. Neither question is pertinent to your other incorrect theories and show just how much confusion you have on all these verses.

Jesus does not stop reigning because satan is loosed
 

ewq1938

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Jesus does not stop reigning because satan is loosed

You are contradicting yourself:

The bible in verse 7 shows the end of the binding and verse 5 shows us that the reigning ends in verses 11-12

So what is true? Does the reigning end or does it not end?
 

Marty fox

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You are contradicting yourself:



So what is true? Does the reigning end or does it not end?

How am I contacting myself? Jesus still reigns after satan is released, do you think that Jesus stops reigning because satan is released? If so then you give satan way too much power.

Jesus reigns until the end of our world till revelation 20:11-12. Then Jesus hands the kingdom over to the Father
 

rwb

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The scriptures in revelation chapter 20 show two different endings of thousand years. This is the scriptures not me showing it so the questions are not irrelevant so please answer them.

I agree Marty. Revelation 20 does show two different endings of the thousand years. We are shown what shall become of Satan after the thousand years expires, and we are also shown what shall become of "the rest of the dead" or "the dead" after the thousand years expire. This is not depicting two separate thousand-year periods of time. It simply depicts the end of time symbolically defined a thousand years given the church on earth during the binding of Satan to spiritually build the Kingdom of God as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the earth.

When the seventh angel begins to sound the last trumpet, this symbolic time (a/the thousand years) shall be no more, because the Gospel will have accomplished the purpose for which it is sent unto the world, and the Kingdom of God spiritually shall be complete. Then Satan is released for a "little season" for one last attempt to keep the spiritual Kingdom of God from being complete. In his little season Satan surrounds what is left of the church on earth during this time. Then the church shall be caught up immortal and incorruptible to meet the Lord in the air, and the fire of God comes down from heaven to utterly burn up this earth and all who are left upon it, and Satan cast into the LOF. That marks the end of Satan's little season, not the thousand years of time which had already expired.

So after the thousand years are complete Satan is destroyed, and then we see the "rest of the dead", depicted merely as "the dead" called before the GWTJ to be judged according to what is written in the books and the book of life. A/The thousand years symbolically depict all time given the Gospel age, or the universal Church age ordained by God for building His Kingdom spiritually through His faithful Church on earth.

Marty, you are assuming two different thousand-year periods of time, but you acknowledge that Rev 20 show us two different endings for this time likened a/the thousand years. Not two different thousand-year periods of time, but two endings first for the devil, and then all who in life never partake of the first resurrection of Christ. John explaining what becomes of Satan and what becomes of all the dead who have not part in the first resurrection is not depicting two separate thousand years period of time as you assume, but only describing what shall become of both Satan during his little season after this symbolic time expires, and also what shall become of all the dead because during the symbolic time had no part in the first resurrection.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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No one thinks that. That is a strawman fallacy Amill invented.
Another lie from you. Amillennialism, in and of itself, does not claim that Premils believe that Jesus stops reigning when the thousand years ends. You don't have to be an Amill in order to be familiar with scriptures like Isaiah 9:6-7 which teach that He will reign forever.
 
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Marty fox

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I agree Marty. Revelation 20 does show two different endings of the thousand years. We are shown what shall become of Satan after the thousand years expires, and we are also shown what shall become of "the rest of the dead" or "the dead" after the thousand years expire. This is not depicting two separate thousand-year periods of time. It simply depicts the end of time symbolically defined a thousand years given the church on earth during the binding of Satan to spiritually build the Kingdom of God as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the earth.

When the seventh angel begins to sound the last trumpet, this symbolic time (a/the thousand years) shall be no more, because the Gospel will have accomplished the purpose for which it is sent unto the world, and the Kingdom of God spiritually shall be complete. Then Satan is released for a "little season" for one last attempt to keep the spiritual Kingdom of God from being complete. In his little season Satan surrounds what is left of the church on earth during this time. Then the church shall be caught up immortal and incorruptible to meet the Lord in the air, and the fire of God comes down from heaven to utterly burn up this earth and all who are left upon it, and Satan cast into the LOF. That marks the end of Satan's little season, not the thousand years of time which had already expired.

So after the thousand years are complete Satan is destroyed, and then we see the "rest of the dead", depicted merely as "the dead" called before the GWTJ to be judged according to what is written in the books and the book of life. A/The thousand years symbolically depict all time given the Gospel age, or the universal Church age ordained by God for building His Kingdom spiritually through His faithful Church on earth.

Marty, you are assuming two different thousand-year periods of time, but you acknowledge that Rev 20 show us two different endings for this time likened a/the thousand years. Not two different thousand-year periods of time, but two endings first for the devil, and then all who in life never partake of the first resurrection of Christ. John explaining what becomes of Satan and what becomes of all the dead who have not part in the first resurrection is not depicting two separate thousand years period of time as you assume, but only describing what shall become of both Satan during his little season after this symbolic time expires, and also what shall become of all the dead because during the symbolic time had no part in the first resurrection.
I agree with most of what you are saying but not all

I believe that both thousand years the binding and the reigning start at the same time at the first advent and mostly run at the same time.

Satans binding ends in rev 20:7 when he is released

The reigning ends at the 7th trumpet at the end of our world when the church is raptured and satan and the world will be destroyed by fire

Then Jesus will hand the kingdom over to the Farther.

Remember Jesus doesn’t reign because satan is bound Jesus reigns because He is God. Satan being released can’t stop Jesus from reigning and we still reign even if we die

The church will spread until the last day satan can’t stop that
 
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rwb

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I agree with most of what you are saying but not all

I believe that both thousand years the binding and the reigning start at the same time at the first advent and mostly run at the same time.

Satans binding ends in rev 20:7 when he is released

The reigning ends at the 7th trumpet at the end of our world when the church is raptured and satan and the world will be destroyed by fire

Then Jesus will hand the kingdom over to the Farther.

Remember Jesus doesn’t reign because satan is bound Jesus reigns because He is God. Satan being released can’t stop Jesus from reigning and we still reign even if we die

The church will spread until the last day satan can’t stop that

Marty, our reigning with the Lord never ends. It is only time given this world that comes to an end. The reign of Christ began when He ascended to the Father and received a Kingdom, and though time given this world has an end, His reigning over His Kingdom is FOREVER! Therefore our reigning with Him also never ends. Our reign with Christ begins in time (thousand years) when we first believe through His Spirit in us. Our reigning with Christ in time is spiritual, while we are still clothed in mortal, corruptible physical bodies destined to die. Which is why upon dying believers, through Christ's Spirit in us transition to heaven from mortal beings into heavenly spiritual beings, as are the angels in heaven.

When time, symbolized a thousand years and Satan's little season have ended, the eternal age given the new earth shall begin. All who have lived and reigned with Christ in time (thousand years), then clothed with immortal and incorruptible physical bodies will live and reign with Christ through eternity, without end on the newly created earth. Then there will be no more death or sorrow for Satan and whosoever in time never partake of Him (the first resurrection) shall be no more.
 
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Marty fox

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Marty, our reigning with the Lord never ends. It is only time given this world that comes to an end. The reign of Christ began when He ascended to the Father and received a Kingdom, and though time given this world has an end, His reigning over His Kingdom is FOREVER! Therefore our reigning with Him also never ends. Our reign with Christ begins in time (thousand years) when we first believe through His Spirit in us. Our reigning with Christ in time is spiritual, while we are still clothed in mortal, corruptible physical bodies destined to die. Which is why upon dying believers, through Christ's Spirit in us transition to heaven from mortal beings into heavenly spiritual beings, as are the angels in heaven.

When time, symbolized a thousand years and Satan's little season have ended, the eternal age given the new earth shall begin. All who have lived and reigned with Christ in time (thousand years), then clothed with immortal and incorruptible physical bodies will live and reign with Christ through eternity, without end on the newly created earth. Then there will be no more death or sorrow for Satan and whosoever in time never partake of Him (the first resurrection) shall be no more.

Of course, I agree with all of this, but Revelation is only mentioning the end of the reign in the current worlds time

1 Corrinthians 15:20-28
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
 

rwb

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Of course, I agree with all of this, but Revelation is only mentioning the end of the reign in the current worlds time

1 Corrinthians 15:20-28
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Marty, I don't see where Revelation, or anywhere else in Scripture ever says our living and reigning with Christ ends when time given this world ends?
 

rwb

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Did you read verse 25-26?

Marty, Paul is not saying our reigning with the Lord will end. Just as Christ shall reign forever and ever, so too we who are in Him shall reign forever and ever with Him upon the earth that shall be made new again.

1 Corinthians 15:25-26 (KJV) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Revelation 11:15 (KJV) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 22:5 (KJV) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 5:10 (KJV) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
 

Marty fox

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Marty, Paul is not saying our reigning with the Lord will end. Just as Christ shall reign forever and ever, so too we who are in Him shall reign forever and ever with Him upon the earth that shall be made new again.

1 Corinthians 15:25-26 (KJV) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Revelation 11:15 (KJV) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 22:5 (KJV) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 5:10 (KJV) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

There is an end of reigning in this world at the end of this world because this world will end. Then we will reign forever with Him.

Did you notice that the verses that you quoted in Revelation 11 & 22 are after the current world has ended?
 

rwb

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There is an end of reigning in this world at the end of this world because this world will end. Then we will reign forever with Him.

Did you notice that the verses that you quoted in Revelation 11 & 22 are after the current world has ended?

That's my point Marty. The end of time for this world does not mean Christ and we with Him will cease to reign forever.
 

Marty fox

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That's my point Marty. The end of time for this world does not mean Christ and we with Him will cease to reign forever.

Yes agreed LOL but the topic that we were discussing was the end of the thousand years which is during this world. Thus maybe we were debating our agreement.
 

rwb

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Yes agreed LOL but the topic that we were discussing was the end of the thousand years which is during this world. Thus maybe we were debating our agreement.

I'm glad we have much agreement, always enjoy our discussions Marty.
 
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Timtofly

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No it doesn’t the actual text you posted yourself says thousands years not millennium
A thousand years is a millennium.

Christ reigning does not start nor end with this time frame of 1,000 years.

The time frame is for those reigning with Christ. The time frame is not Christ's reign, because that has been all of creation, not just the last millennium.

So, yes after these ressurected humans have reigned a 1,000 years. After Satan has been bound a 1,000 years. After the Millennium will Satan be loosed and deceive many.

Revelation 20 is not about a reign of Christ. It is about a reign with Christ. Since these humans are not in heaven, this is a millennium on earth. The church has already been reigning with Christ in Paradise for almost 1993 years. That is almost 2 millennium. So obviously not about Revelation 20 at all which is only 1 millennium, and on earth, not in Paradise.

The literal Amil position would be a new space race where billions of wicked storm the gates of heaven, since that is how they interpret Revelation 20. That is where Christ is currently reigning from, with the saints in Paradise. That is the only central location of any camp of saints. There is no current central location on earth with a camp of saints. The saints are scattered all over the earth, in nearly every local of humanity. No long treck to find a central location per Revelation 20, is even necessary.

Last I checked, "with" means in close proximity. That would be the point in Revelation 20. Not every one reigns with Christ in that camp of the saints. There are millions of souls redeemed throughout the earth in many nations during the Millennium.

Not even all of Israel will reign with Christ, just the 144k. There is only one throne, and the camp of the saints, the beloved city, where that throne is located. In Paradise there are many thrones.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them."

These thrones were already there, they did not "poof" into existence that moment. There are not thrones set up on earth. These would be current thrones already set up in heaven. Going by Amil belief, already there in the first century when their millennium started. I would not argue that they have been there as Paul claims we are seated in heavenly places even in the first century. Are not thrones something to sit on since the Cross physically opened Paradise for souls in God's permanent incorruptible physical bodies?

Seeing thrones and souls is symbolic terminology, yes. Thrones are literal seats showing judgment is given. But thrones represents those souls sitting in judgment just as well as souls being judged represent a physical body that is now permanent and without fault, ie incorruptible. That is the judgment handed down.
 

Timtofly

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Verse 5 says so
There is no short season between Satan being bound, and verse 4.

"And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus."

One thought with two outcomes. Satan bound, and souls resurrected into permanent incorruptible physical bodies.

You think one thousand years starts in verse 3, and then a little season later the reigning starts.

No.

Satan is bound within hours of this first resurrection. Satan is bound as soon as Armageddon is over, an hour long battle at the most.

Then the millennium starts with a resurrection, and also a new heaven and earth. Heaven and earth are not made new until after Armageddon, and Satan is bound up. That is when Jesus makes all things new, and the resurrection takes place for those who reign on earth, 1,000 years with Christ.

The only little season is after the Millennium when Satan is loosed to once again deceieve humanity.