bbyrd009
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Protestant Leaders and the pope
- Thread starter Rollo Tamasi
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I know this thread is a bit old but, I just happened upon it. I remember an awesome bible study teacher we had in the 1990's who taught an excellent study on ecumenism...he has passed away years back. What he said is so spot on with this movement. Here is a vid if anybody cares to watch...
I watched it twice. What perplexed me was the content of positive things said about the Pope, except when they bring Babylon and the same old fundie Rev. 17 lunacies.
If you understand a modicum of Catholic teaching on ecumenism, a one world religion IS IMPOSSIBLE.
The video is produced by "Friends of Yeshua". Here is what I found on their site:
John 17:20 “I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
Pope John Paul the Great wrote an entire encyclical based on one verse: "That they may be one", Latin: Ut Unam Sint.
If we apply the same criteria that anti-Catholics impose on the Pope onto Jesus, then Jesus is guilty of conspiring a one world religion. DUH! HELLO???
False ecumenism is sacrificing elements of any given community for the sake of "unity". (e.g., we won't mention X doctrine or practice as to not offend anybody.)
True ecumenism is working together for the common good, WITHOUT SACRIFICING CHURCH IDENTITY.
"ECUMENISM OF BLOOD" was coined by Pope Francis to mean that everybody, regardless of their faith tradition, when martyred, bleed the same color. That's true ecumenism.
False ecumenism is totally contrary to Catholic teaching, as expressed in the Vatican Declaration on Religious Freedom found in DIGNITATIS HUMANAE
ON THE RIGHT OF THE PERSON AND OF COMMUNITIES
TO SOCIAL AND CIVIL FREEDOM IN MATTERS RELIGIOUS.
I challenge anyone to pick this document apart and look for a speck of false ecumenism, or a hint of "one world religion" nonsense.
This certificate is award to "pope" Manuel J. Garcia, founder of the anti-Catholic non-church "Friends of Yeshua" for condemning the Pope over what isn't there, and for promoting his own brand of false ecumenism.
If you understand a modicum of Catholic teaching on ecumenism, a one world religion IS IMPOSSIBLE.
The video is produced by "Friends of Yeshua". Here is what I found on their site:
We are not a church, but rather an organization that sees a need for the teaching we offer. Our organization consists of believers from various churches, who also see this need and have the same desire to bring it to “the Church.” Our hope is to cause both believers and Churches to consider our approach and incorporate it into their daily study of the scripture.
In other words, "we want various churches to believe what we believe." This is false ecumenism to the extreme, yet they demonize the Pope for wanting what Jesus wanted:John 17:20 “I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
Pope John Paul the Great wrote an entire encyclical based on one verse: "That they may be one", Latin: Ut Unam Sint.
If we apply the same criteria that anti-Catholics impose on the Pope onto Jesus, then Jesus is guilty of conspiring a one world religion. DUH! HELLO???
False ecumenism is sacrificing elements of any given community for the sake of "unity". (e.g., we won't mention X doctrine or practice as to not offend anybody.)
True ecumenism is working together for the common good, WITHOUT SACRIFICING CHURCH IDENTITY.
"ECUMENISM OF BLOOD" was coined by Pope Francis to mean that everybody, regardless of their faith tradition, when martyred, bleed the same color. That's true ecumenism.
False ecumenism is totally contrary to Catholic teaching, as expressed in the Vatican Declaration on Religious Freedom found in DIGNITATIS HUMANAE
ON THE RIGHT OF THE PERSON AND OF COMMUNITIES
TO SOCIAL AND CIVIL FREEDOM IN MATTERS RELIGIOUS.
I challenge anyone to pick this document apart and look for a speck of false ecumenism, or a hint of "one world religion" nonsense.
This certificate is award to "pope" Manuel J. Garcia, founder of the anti-Catholic non-church "Friends of Yeshua" for condemning the Pope over what isn't there, and for promoting his own brand of false ecumenism.
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Truth
Well-Known Member
Just been going through these last few posts, and you all are wrong, Joseph collected His Earthly Vessel, which according to Scripture, He had given up the Spirit, So all that was left was the fleshly remains that once contained the Spirit of God, that corruptible flesh, which was transformed into un-corruptible, immortal Living Body, any way that which was placed in the Tomb was gone as far a life is concerned. What happened after that was Life Ever-Lasting. No matter how you Label His remains it is of no significance, we are to Glorify Him as He is Now!
The problem with ecumenism comes to the fore when anyone compromises in order to make it so. Jesus would walked with no man at before he would compromise:
"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?" John 6:66-67
And then when he was dead on the cross all that was left was a carcass, an empty shell without Life. But...
"... Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; ..." Mark 16:6
Yet, the empty carcass remains for many. To them it remains a dead, unresurrected carcass. It need not be. Compromising will not change this... so why ecumenism? What is it that gives Life? Not ecumenism!
"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?" John 6:66-67
And then when he was dead on the cross all that was left was a carcass, an empty shell without Life. But...
"... Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; ..." Mark 16:6
Yet, the empty carcass remains for many. To them it remains a dead, unresurrected carcass. It need not be. Compromising will not change this... so why ecumenism? What is it that gives Life? Not ecumenism!
I hope you are not implying that a crucifix is divisive. If an ecumenical prayer service is hosted in a Catholic Church, do you think we should cover up the crucifix with a sheet? That in itself would be false ecumenism.
Working together for the common good doesn't compromise anything, and it beats gouging each other's eyes out.
You have a slew of stuff going way over my head here epostle1, lol...I do see the beauty in a unity of the Church of Jesus Christ...but, knowing us humans---I do not see it fully realized until Jesus makes us one in Him on ALL counts. Nope, nothing to back that up-I had a couple bible studies on this subject a long time ago and, never really thought of it until very recently after seeing some things come to pass as I was taught back then. Thanks for the input...I will come back to this post and look into it more thouroughly when I have more time...
-nancy
Personally, I have absolutely nothing BUT reverence for what the Cross represents. My only issue is the cross that still has Christ depicted ON IT...He has risen, so why depict His "image" still on the cross? I never understood this as a child and just hated seeing Him still on the cross. Is there a reason that some still depict His broken body on the cross?
I did not mention a crucifix at all. I spoke of the cross on which Jesus was crucified. Your symbols are yours as the Protestants our theirs. If I have any, they are mine.
The common good? What is that? Whose good? Mankind's according to men? I would think not.
What God made in the beginning was all "very good" [Gen 1:31] and man changed that at his beginning and continuously thereafter. Did not Jesus make it possible to go back to where everything is "very good" again in the eyes of God? Is that not what the common good should be? The common good for men, whether Catholic or Protestant or other, if they are not they are following the Holy Spirit in everything and never quenching the Spirit, will not be equal to the Way of God when any part is less than "very good".
I believe you know what a compromise is. As I understand it, a compromise occurs when someone gives up something or changes something... in this case concerning what he believes to cooperate with other men.
To change what we believe with regard to God by simply by agreeing with another person is always wrong no matter who is or is not right according to God. Our changes should be made by God, as I see it, when and if we are allowing the Holy Spirit in us to change us. We cannot alone in our flesh fix the problem. To say that we can would certainly be a falsehood according my understanding and probably yours.
Am I in error as what your understanding is on this?
That's funny
In a one world religion, it doesn't matter where you come from, as long as you give all your money to the pope.
United Kingdom?
That's a muslim country, isn't it?
Christianity didn't work so well over there.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
You don't have to be a Catholic to be Catholic.↑@BreadOfLife said:-
That's funny - NONE of the people you just mentioned are Catholics.
Try doing some homework before posting next time . . .
@Rollo Tamasi said:-
Sure they are.
You just don't know it.
I'm trying to enlighten you.
I guess that's impossible, isn't it?
Okay I am listening. I have listened to all those preachers in their time..then gave up on them...
But where do you get that they are turning Catholic or are already?
Or, do they just drink Tea with the Pope?
Watching this thread.
..and there was @aspen wondering where the debate was at.
....I am feeling "here it comes." Aspen..
The 'in word' of political correctness is the basis for ecumenism. That in word is tolerance. Epostle1 was right, in that the pope doesn't demand anyone to give up their denomination in order to be accepted in to the NWO/global Babylon community of 'believers' . Non Catholics have the 'freedom' to continue to be 'protestants', at least in name, and will be 'tolerated'...in other words their peculiar beliefs will be permitted or allowed to continue so long as it is recognised that Rome has the final word...final authority and has the power to remove said toleration according to his self proclaimed authority.
The pope/Vathican/RCC is said to be in favour of religious freedom. This is a bald faced lie. They demand freedom for themselves, but tolerate the practices and beliefs of others until they are in a position to change their mind without any harm to themselves.
The pope/Vathican/RCC is said to be in favour of religious freedom. This is a bald faced lie. They demand freedom for themselves, but tolerate the practices and beliefs of others until they are in a position to change their mind without any harm to themselves.
Why are you compelled to persecute Catholicism with this juvenile nonsense? Is post #163 too much text, so you scrolled past it? Or is it too heavy for your reading level? Begging for another spanking, Rollo?
Anti-Catholics are not just misinformed,
they are mentally ill, IMO.
You explicitly referred to Christ's dead body as "a dead unresurrected carcass" which is disrespectful, and nothing to do with symbols.
Any good work, in order to qualify as "good", is done by the grace of Christ. Why is this such a difficult concept for so many Protestants to comprehend, and why do so many Protestants accuse Catholics of the Pelagian heresy? (works salvation)
I can't be more clear on the difference between true and false ecumenism. Two churches working together to support a food bank or soup kitchen is for the common good of hungry people. I've seen it happen. No one is compromising beliefs in this scenario, and they are not losing their identity, and they are not trying to form a one world religion. The whole notion of the Pope setting up a one world religion is paranoid fundamentalist anti-Catholic stupidity and ignorance.
And where do they get the billions of dollars?
From Central and South American countries that are fighting bankruptcy on a yearly basis.
I don't see none of their treasures from the catacombs being sold on e-bay.
"Anti-Catholics are not just misinformed,
they are mentally ill, IMO."
Statements like these are why catholics stand alone in the world.
they are mentally ill, IMO."
Statements like these are why catholics stand alone in the world.
I don't think Rollo would want a spanking. Well, at least from a guy! Lol...good post.Mission is a prerequisite to unity, Pope says in Geneva
Vatican City, Jun 21, 2018 / 08:29 am (CNA/EWTN News).- Speaking to ecumenical leaders Thursday, Pope Francis said Christian unity in many ways depends on a willingness to go out of oneself to meet the needs of others, and called for a “new evangelical outreach” among Christian communities. READ MORE HERE
Pope in Geneva: Real ecumenism puts Christ over division
Vatican City, Jun 21, 2018 / 03:28 am (CNA/EWTN News).- Pope Francis landed in Geneva Thursday for a day-trip aimed at bolstering ecumenical relations, saying that division among Christians comes from worldliness, and Christ must be prioritized over any differences that might get in the way of unity. READ MORE HERE
This is a report from the U.S. government. Specifically, the CIA fact book, which can be found at https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/vt.html proves, from non-sectarian, public sources (the CIA) that Vatican wealth is a myth.
Question: Mainly the question is, the Vatican has so many treasures it has collected throughout the years. With all these treasures it has, why not sell them and help the poor ten times over, instead of hording them?
Answer: The Holy See annually runs a deficit in its operations (including its charitable works), for which it must depend on contributions (most of which now come from American bishops and their people). "Vatican riches" are a myth.
I presume the treasures your friend wants the Vatican to sell are the widely acclaimed art treasures. Now suppose we sell them. Could they bring in 30 billion dollars? Well, suppose they did bring in so much.
There are now close to 5 billion people in the world, and I guess 3 billion of these are rated really poor. So the Vatican is able to give each of these ten dollars apiece. Now you can bet that all this money will find its way from the hands of the poor to the pockets of the rich in less than a year. So how are we ahead?
Every church has administration costs, and these treasures bring in much need tourist dollars, much of which also goes to the poor. This past year the Vatican has run a 3 million dollar deficit, and has been publicly documented.
Now back to the art treasures. They have been sold--to whom? To private collectors and to museums. The world will never see nor derive any benefit from the treasures in private hands. And the public who might visit the rest of the treasures in museums can visit them now in the Vatican museums. They are not being hoarded. They are being preserved and displayed and widely enjoyed. I'd say, leave them there.
If your friend is yearning to enjoy even greater treasures in the keeping of the Catholic Church, he might start with the Bible. He would not have Scripture if the Church had not first written it, validated it, and handed it down to him through the centuries.
Anyone who seeks to can enjoy the treasure of the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. Anyone can enjoy membership and fellowship in the Church which Christ founded and the Holy Spirit has kept going for 20 centuries (in part) by Fr. Mike Mateo.
The Vatican went through 23 money-losing years until 1993. The situation turned around after bishops from around the world agreed to provide direct assistance.
Anyone can search the web and find over 10,000 webs reporting this. Vatican wealth is a myth.
+...
I believe that those who decry the "wealth" of the Vatican do so not out of altruistic reasons but due to a hope that the Church have no clout or influence in the world's affairs. This has nothing to do with "riches" but more to do with "power". Most people do not wish that the Church have a voice in matters political, humanitarian, ethical, etc., they would like to see her shut-up and ineffectual. God wishes otherwise and so do the true aspirations of the inner workings of humanity. "the gates of hell shall not prevail against thee." The ignorance of these simplistic self-righteous statements need not bother us - God is in control here - no worry. Fools be gone! If the Church had all the riches of the world (and she does on a much deeper level) no one should worry - we all should be happy if such a miraculous thing happened - for we'd be assured that all those riches would be distributed rightfully and justly, unlike the world. We'd be assured that the great works of art would be open for all and available to all.
+...
Would they feel "better" if Egypt would sell the pyramids, France the Eiffel Tower, China the Wall, etc., etc., to feed their hungry? These people are real jokers, and they really do not know what the "treasures" of the Vatican are ... Maybe if they sell the Sistine Chapel, piece by piece of stone and mortar to another country, they will have more cash to increase their catholic contributions around the world ... Have you ever seen or heard of all the money that goes out of the Vatican to dozens of countries around the world each year to help???? The help goes not only to Catholics, but to all ... "The Vatican Treasures" issue is a really old one ... always used by those that want to put down Catholicism at its roots ... The folks that criticize Catholics and the Vatican would feel much better if the Pope would live in a shack, in rags, and extreme poverty. (observers say he actually lives an austere life of much penance, prayer, and fasting.)Well I have news for them ... The president of Argentina lives in the Pink House, the president of the USA lives in the White House, the Queen of England lives in Buckingham Palace (?), and the Pope lives in the Vatican.
Hey Rollo, people who need these services aren't charged any money. But you were probably told about all the real estate that is owned.
Vatican City, Jun 21, 2018 / 08:29 am (CNA/EWTN News).- Speaking to ecumenical leaders Thursday, Pope Francis said Christian unity in many ways depends on a willingness to go out of oneself to meet the needs of others, and called for a “new evangelical outreach” among Christian communities. READ MORE HERE
Pope in Geneva: Real ecumenism puts Christ over division
Vatican City, Jun 21, 2018 / 03:28 am (CNA/EWTN News).- Pope Francis landed in Geneva Thursday for a day-trip aimed at bolstering ecumenical relations, saying that division among Christians comes from worldliness, and Christ must be prioritized over any differences that might get in the way of unity. READ MORE HERE
Begging for that spanking, I see. I didn't say YOU were an anti-Catholic, you admit that yourself. Catholics stand alone on forums, it's silly for 1.2 billion to stand alone. I can't explain the myth of Vatican wealth to fit on a T shirt so you will probably ignore the rest of my post.
THE MYTH OF VATICAN WEALTH
“Challenges to vision of a ‘Poor Church for the Poor,’” available here, http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/challenges-vision-poor-church-poor, that “the legendary wealth of the Vatican is to some extent more myth than reality.” He then points out the often ignored fact that the yearly budget for operating the Vatican is less than $300 million. He contrasts this with Harvard University (which he labels as “the Vatican of elite secular opinion”) whose annual budget is $3.7 billion. Allen points out further that the patrimony (or endowment) of the Vatican is about $1 billion. Harvard, on the other hand, as a whopping $30.7 billion endowment. Allen concedes that the Vatican bank is in charge of the equivalent of over $6 billion, but then points out how the majority of that money is not actually the Vatican’s, and thus the Vatican would not be at liberty to use most of that amount for any purpose whatsoever.
Some confusion exists about the Vatican property, relics, artwork, etc., itself. Shouldn’t the Vatican just sell St. Peter’s Basilica, Vatican City, all of its religious patrimony? First of all, I don’t think it should, but even if it should, it can’t. What critics fail to realize, probably due to their ignorance of European history, Church history, etc., is that the Vatican has the independent autonomous sovereignty of a modern nation state, but with caveats. Unlike many modern nation states who created their own autonomy through revolutionary and civil wars, the Vatican achieved its sovereignty purely by negotiations without an army.
READ MORE HERE
Some confusion exists about the Vatican property, relics, artwork, etc., itself. Shouldn’t the Vatican just sell St. Peter’s Basilica, Vatican City, all of its religious patrimony? First of all, I don’t think it should, but even if it should, it can’t. What critics fail to realize, probably due to their ignorance of European history, Church history, etc., is that the Vatican has the independent autonomous sovereignty of a modern nation state, but with caveats. Unlike many modern nation states who created their own autonomy through revolutionary and civil wars, the Vatican achieved its sovereignty purely by negotiations without an army.
READ MORE HERE
This is a report from the U.S. government. Specifically, the CIA fact book, which can be found at https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/vt.html proves, from non-sectarian, public sources (the CIA) that Vatican wealth is a myth.
Question: Mainly the question is, the Vatican has so many treasures it has collected throughout the years. With all these treasures it has, why not sell them and help the poor ten times over, instead of hording them?
Answer: The Holy See annually runs a deficit in its operations (including its charitable works), for which it must depend on contributions (most of which now come from American bishops and their people). "Vatican riches" are a myth.
I presume the treasures your friend wants the Vatican to sell are the widely acclaimed art treasures. Now suppose we sell them. Could they bring in 30 billion dollars? Well, suppose they did bring in so much.
There are now close to 5 billion people in the world, and I guess 3 billion of these are rated really poor. So the Vatican is able to give each of these ten dollars apiece. Now you can bet that all this money will find its way from the hands of the poor to the pockets of the rich in less than a year. So how are we ahead?
Every church has administration costs, and these treasures bring in much need tourist dollars, much of which also goes to the poor. This past year the Vatican has run a 3 million dollar deficit, and has been publicly documented.
Now back to the art treasures. They have been sold--to whom? To private collectors and to museums. The world will never see nor derive any benefit from the treasures in private hands. And the public who might visit the rest of the treasures in museums can visit them now in the Vatican museums. They are not being hoarded. They are being preserved and displayed and widely enjoyed. I'd say, leave them there.
If your friend is yearning to enjoy even greater treasures in the keeping of the Catholic Church, he might start with the Bible. He would not have Scripture if the Church had not first written it, validated it, and handed it down to him through the centuries.
Anyone who seeks to can enjoy the treasure of the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. Anyone can enjoy membership and fellowship in the Church which Christ founded and the Holy Spirit has kept going for 20 centuries (in part) by Fr. Mike Mateo.
The Vatican went through 23 money-losing years until 1993. The situation turned around after bishops from around the world agreed to provide direct assistance.
Anyone can search the web and find over 10,000 webs reporting this. Vatican wealth is a myth.
+...
I believe that those who decry the "wealth" of the Vatican do so not out of altruistic reasons but due to a hope that the Church have no clout or influence in the world's affairs. This has nothing to do with "riches" but more to do with "power". Most people do not wish that the Church have a voice in matters political, humanitarian, ethical, etc., they would like to see her shut-up and ineffectual. God wishes otherwise and so do the true aspirations of the inner workings of humanity. "the gates of hell shall not prevail against thee." The ignorance of these simplistic self-righteous statements need not bother us - God is in control here - no worry. Fools be gone! If the Church had all the riches of the world (and she does on a much deeper level) no one should worry - we all should be happy if such a miraculous thing happened - for we'd be assured that all those riches would be distributed rightfully and justly, unlike the world. We'd be assured that the great works of art would be open for all and available to all.
+...
Would they feel "better" if Egypt would sell the pyramids, France the Eiffel Tower, China the Wall, etc., etc., to feed their hungry? These people are real jokers, and they really do not know what the "treasures" of the Vatican are ... Maybe if they sell the Sistine Chapel, piece by piece of stone and mortar to another country, they will have more cash to increase their catholic contributions around the world ... Have you ever seen or heard of all the money that goes out of the Vatican to dozens of countries around the world each year to help???? The help goes not only to Catholics, but to all ... "The Vatican Treasures" issue is a really old one ... always used by those that want to put down Catholicism at its roots ... The folks that criticize Catholics and the Vatican would feel much better if the Pope would live in a shack, in rags, and extreme poverty. (observers say he actually lives an austere life of much penance, prayer, and fasting.)Well I have news for them ... The president of Argentina lives in the Pink House, the president of the USA lives in the White House, the Queen of England lives in Buckingham Palace (?), and the Pope lives in the Vatican.
Hey Rollo, people who need these services aren't charged any money. But you were probably told about all the real estate that is owned.
Disrespectful? The disrespect was on the part of everyone who caused him to be crucified. They or we put him in an apparently disrespected place. But was it? Where would any of us be if He had not allowed it?
When Jesus was on the cross he died. He was dead for three days. He was a dead carcass. Check the dictionary definition of the word. Check the usage of the word in some Bible translations.
Jesus is the Word of God. Where was the Word of God while his body of flesh was dead? The carcass did not have in it the Word or the Power. It felt no pain or anguish. It was dead and felt nothing at all. It was a dead carcass or body of flesh and bone if you prefer. To me, using the word carcass for the dead body on the cross is not being disrespectful. It was dead.
But when the body/carcass in the tomb was resurrected by the power of God, by the quickening of the Holy Spirit, then we had the Resurrection. Similarly men who are all dead men walking without that same power, can be resurrected by that same quickening Holy Spirit. This is why Jesus came:
"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10
Why are you attacking me on this? I definitely do not believe in OSAS in the sense that most of those to whom you refer do. I am certainly closer to Catholicism on this point than to many other non-Catholic believers groups.
Two churches or two people working together to do good is fine as long as the good is what God would call good. That has nothing to do with what I would oppose as compromising. Other people are different on this because what they believe is different. For me to compromise your beliefs is to act against what you believe in order to be able to work with someone else. People should not do that if they believe their beliefs are correct before God. Are we communicating now?
If joining an ecumenical movement would require me to change what I believe about God and His righteousness then I would not join. I would not join one of them in any case unless I was led to do so by the Holy Spirit.
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Oh, you think it's funny being spanked and called mentally ill?
I don't think it's funny.
I think he is a romanist and they are our enemies.
They are no different then muslims.
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