Polygamy

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear all,

You see, it is improper to judge very complicated subjects like polygamy when you have little or no experience with those who are living that lifestyle. Many like to be armchair prophets that decree judgment on things they know little about and call it God. Just because you can regurgitate scriptures does not make your doctrine right or even remotely Godly. Jesus did not condemn the woman caught in the very act of adultery because all those present were worthy of death too. We are all sinners saved by grace and instead of looking for ways to condemn our brethren we should be looking for ways to help and heal them. Jesus wants us all to have life and have it more abundantly.

Untold pain and suffering has been perpetrated upon those whom missionaries sought to save by telling them, erroneously as it turned out, that God only allows one wife. Thinking they were doing good they tore apart families and brought shame to women and their children. They made men who stood strong with their families outcasts in church. Their legalism blinded them to the fact that they were going against the very heart of marriage by destroying those in it. No matter how miserable a legalist makes another human being feel they look upon them pitilessly. Do we want to be like Judge Claude Frollo in the hunch back of Notre Dame? Or do we want to be like the lowly gypsy girl who had compassion for the person no one understood? Which eyes do we wish to see with?

I want God's forgiveness and I want God's mercy in my life. I fear to do to others what I wish to be forgiven of.

The high priest quoted scripture when He said that it was expedient that one person should die for the sins of the people...did that make him approved of God? Scripture makes no one Holy and no amount of scripture piled upon a point that is wanting will ever make it right.

The spirit of legalism is a spirit that will turn on the followers of Christ. It is part of the strong delusion that has come upon the whole and is setting people up to betray their brethren just like the high priest did. It is not reasonable but it is a spirit that seeks to crush the Spirit out of those it disapproves of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyS3weMlxLA

 

[Rex]

So did you abandon your new thread and run back here in your favorite thread topic to make the case again.
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17211-is-it-ever-proper-to-judge-another-mans-servant/

The entire old and new testament is full of men of God discerning and making Judgements

It has never been Gods intention to instruct men to go around and nod your head like you agree with every doctrine.
How many times are we told to beware, test the spirits, do not follow after, watch for a different gospel, beware of the levin of the Pharisees ect ect ect


13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[d] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?”[e] But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear All,

The reason I posted another topic is that I did not wish to get off topic on this one. I am sure you agee with that.

The reason I have spoken about the evils of legalism with regaurd to polygamy is that I beileve that legalism is the root of many peoples objection to the blessed form or marriage. Just look at Jacob...the many was a spirutal dynamo...and with four wives to boot! If there ever was a advertisement for such a marriage He is certainly it...grin.

But seriuosly folks, let us all just realize that God hasn't spoken at length on this subject simply because it is not a big deal to Him. If having more than one wife was tantamount to adultery then, of course, He would have spoken about it at length. Let us all be reaonable men and women and just let the Bible speak where it speaks and be silent where it is silent.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[Selene]

Selene,

Now, let's put the Lord's statement back in context:

Jeremiah 16:1-4 The word of the LORD came also unto me, saying, Thou shalt not take thee a wife, neither shalt thou have sons or daughters in this place. For thus saith the LORD concerning the sons and concerning the daughters that are born in this place, and concerning their mothers that bare them, and concerning their fathers that begat them in this land; They shall die of grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcases shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.

So, did God say to Jeremiah, he shall not eternally have a wife? No, he stated that he was not to take a wife out of that place because God was going to destroy those people.

Regarding the priests that marry, you're missing the point. Of course people choose to become a priest, and of course they know what the church says about it. This doesn't mean your church is right in doing so, however. This had to be implemented sometime, whether from the beginning, or added during the years. The point is not whether they choose to be a priest. The point is, if they become priests, you CANNOT say, "You now cannot marry." Whether they're a priest, bishop, etc, matters not. They should have the choice while they are a priest, if they want to marry or not. And that's the point. The ability to choose while being a priest has to be granted to them.

Raeneske, Jeremiah NEVER got married and NEVER had any children either from any woman of that place or any place.

When St. Paul said that a bishop must be a husband of one wife.....he is not saying that the bishop MUST marry. In that passage, he is not stating that all bishops must marry. The passage is interpreted to mean that if a bishop is married, he must be married to ONLY ONE wife because Christianity finds polygamy immoral. St. Paul was the one who stated that it's better for a person to be single so they can devote all their time to God.

No, the point is...they CHOSE to become priests because no one forced them to become priests. And when they chose to become priests, they made a vow of celibacy before God. That was their choice. The fact that we have both married and single priests shows that we are not against marriage. But our Church chose to follow Christ. Being chaste or celibate was a much higher calling and this was the choice that our priests and nuns chose to follow. So, we are not forcing anyone not to marry. Our priests chose to serve God and remain single by imitating Christ. What Christ said is what the Catholic Church chose to follow:

Luke 20:34-36 Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.

As for fasting....since someone brought up fasting......Catholics fast for 40 days because Christ fasted for 40 days in the desert. Fasting means abstaining from all foods OR abstaining from some foods. Again, the Church does not force anyone to fast. Those who are diabetic, for example, don't need to fast. Children under 12 do not need to fast. Also, it is not required for Catholics to fast for all 40 days. It is only encouraged on Ash Wednesday, Fridays, and Good Fridays. On Sundays, Catholics do not fast. However, I am a Catholic walking in the Way. Because I walk in the Way, I fast on Good Friday, abstaining from ALL foods....not just meat. I also fast for 40 days (except Sundays). Catholics who walk in the Way follow a much more stricter rule....and it is my choice to walk in the Way. :)

 

[Groundzero]

When St. Paul said that a bishop must be a husband of one wife.....he is not saying that the bishop MUST marry. In that passage, he is not stating that all bishops must marry. The passage is interpreted to mean that if a bishop is married, he must be married to ONLY ONE wife because Christianity finds polygamy immoral. St. Paul was the one who stated that it's better for a person to be single so they can devote all their time to God.

As I've already addressed, the word 'ONE' in this Scirpture verse is referring to first. A bishop cannot be a divorcee. It has NOTHING to do with polygyny.
But then again, I've already stated that and you didn't listen. Maybe this time it'll get through.

 

[Raeneske]

Raeneske, Jeremiah NEVER got married and NEVER had any children either from any woman of that place or any place.

When St. Paul said that a bishop must be a husband of one wife.....he is not saying that the bishop MUST marry. In that passage, he is not stating that all bishops must marry. The passage is interpreted to mean that if a bishop is married, he must be married to ONLY ONE wife because Christianity finds polygamy immoral. St. Paul was the one who stated that it's better for a person to be single so they can devote all their time to God.

No, the point is...they CHOSE to become priests because no one forced them to become priests. And when they chose to become priests, they made a vow of celibacy before God. That was their choice. The fact that we have both married and single priests shows that we are not against marriage. But our Church chose to follow Christ. Being chaste or celibate was a much higher calling and this was the choice that our priests and nuns chose to follow. So, we are not forcing anyone not to marry. Our priests chose to serve God and remain single by imitating Christ. What Christ said is what the Catholic Church chose to follow:

Luke 20:34-36 Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.

As for fasting....since someone brought up fasting......Catholics fast for 40 days because Christ fasted for 40 days in the desert. Fasting means abstaining from all foods OR abstaining from some foods. Again, the Church does not force anyone to fast. Those who are diabetic, for example, don't need to fast. Children under 12 do not need to fast. Also, it is not required for Catholics to fast for all 40 days. It is only encouraged on Ash Wednesday, Fridays, and Good Fridays. On Sundays, Catholics do not fast. However, I am a Catholic walking in the Way. Because I walk in the Way, I fast on Good Friday, abstaining from ALL foods....not just meat. I also fast for 40 days (except Sundays). Catholics who walk in the Way follow a much more stricter rule....and it is my choice to walk in the Way. :)

Selene,

You are entirely missing the point. If I told someone to be part of a church that I started, they had to be celibate, wouldn't that be a doctrine of devils? Do I have any place to say, "It's a higher calling!!!" When the Bible clearly forbids me to do such a thing?

It's the same thing for the Roman Church. Didn't the people know in my example that I told them they have to be celibate to join? Yes, they did. Is it still a doctrine of devils to forbid them to marry? Yes. Do the people know in the Roman Church you have to be celibate to join priesthood? Yes. Is it still a doctrine of devils? Yes. And that's the point.

 

[Selene]

As I've already addressed, the word 'ONE' in this Scirpture verse is referring to first. A bishop cannot be a divorcee. It has NOTHING to do with polygyny.
But then again, I've already stated that and you didn't listen. Maybe this time it'll get through.

It has everything to do with polygamy. When St. Paul stated that he must be a bishop of ONE wife, he specifies a number because the bishop should not be a husband of TWO or THREE or even FOUR wives. That is why St. Paul specified a number. People already know that divorce is illegal because that is one of God's Ten Commandments.

Selene,

You are entirely missing the point. If I told someone to be part of a church that I started, they had to be celibate, wouldn't that be a doctrine of devils? Do I have any place to say, "It's a higher calling!!!" When the Bible clearly forbids me to do such a thing?

It's the same thing for the Roman Church. Didn't the people know in my example that I told them they have to be celibate to join? Yes, they did. Is it still a doctrine of devils to forbid them to marry? Yes. Do the people know in the Roman Church you have to be celibate to join priesthood? Yes. Is it still a doctrine of devils? Yes. And that's the point.

If you start a church stating that everyone has to be celibate, that would be a doctrine of the devils because that is the same doctrines that the Gnostics passed. In 1 Timothy 4:1-4, St. Paul was referring to the Gnostics who forbid marriage in their religion.

That is not referring to us because we never forbid marriage. Our goal is to imitate Christ. Priests (and even nuns) are called to imitate Christ. Christ was single. St. Paul also stated that it was better to be single so that one can fully devote themselves to God. Yes, all the Catholic men and women are fully aware that to join the priesthood or even to become a nun, they are to take a vow of obedience, chastity, and for some a vow of poverty (like Mother Theresa did). This was their choice. The ordination of priesthood is NOT for everyone. It is only for those whom God called. The fact that we have both married and single priests shows that we do not forbid marriage. In the same way...to be a nun is NOT for everyone. It is only for those whom God called.

I told you in another post that that the word "worship" does not mean the same for Catholics and Christians (Protestants). For Christians, the word "worship" is associated with the word "prayer." But for us, the word "worship" is associated with the word "sacrifice." For us, we worship God through sacrifice. For our nuns and priests, they sacrificed their entire life to Him. They gave up everything to follow Him. For the rest of us, we are to sacrifice ourselves by living as holy saints regardless of what vocation we have. We are called to sacrifice our lives to the Gospels by becoming holy saints and even martyrs.........to be the light of the world so that others may also come to believe in God our Father and in our Lord Jesus Christ. The seed of faith has already been planted in every baptized Catholic, and the seed grows and becomes fruitful only when we sacrifice our lives to living out the Gospels. Christ said that we are to "worship Him in spirit." The Church teaches that the "moral life is spiritual worship" and that is in our Catechism.

 

[Raeneske]

It has everything to do with polygamy. When St. Paul stated that he must be a bishop of ONE wife, he specifies a number because the bishop should not be a husband of TWO or THREE or even FOUR wives. That is why St. Paul specified a number. People already know that divorce is illegal because that is one of God's Ten Commandments.



If you start a church stating that everyone has to be celibate, that would be a doctrine of the devils because that is the same doctrines that the Gnostics passed. In 1 Timothy 4:1-4, St. Paul was referring to the Gnostics who forbid marriage in their religion.

That is not referring to us because we never forbid marriage. Our goal is to imitate Christ. Priests (and even nuns) are called to imitate Christ. Christ was single. St. Paul also stated that it was better to be single so that one can fully devote themselves to God. Yes, all the Catholic men and women are fully aware that to join the priesthood or even to become a nun, they are to take a vow of obedience, chastity, and for some a vow of poverty (like Mother Theresa did). This was their choice. The ordination of priesthood is NOT for everyone. It is only for those whom God called. The fact that we have both married and single priests shows that we do not forbid marriage. In the same way...to be a nun is NOT for everyone. It is only for those whom God called.

I told you in another post that that the word "worship" does not mean the same for Catholics and Christians (Protestants). For Christians, the word "worship" is associated with the word "prayer." But for us, the word "worship" is associated with the word "sacrifice." For us, we worship God through sacrifice. For our nuns and priests, they sacrificed their entire life to Him. They gave up everything to follow Him. For the rest of us, we are to sacrifice ourselves by living as holy saints regardless of what vocation we have. We are called to sacrifice our lives to the Gospels by becoming holy saints and even martyrs.........to be the light of the world so that others may also come to believe in God our Father and in our Lord Jesus Christ. The seed of faith has already been planted in every baptized Catholic, and the seed grows and becomes fruitful only when we sacrifice our lives to living out the Gospels. Christ said that we are to "worship Him in spirit." The Church teaches that the "moral life is spiritual worship" and that is in our Catechism.

Selene,

The forbiddance of marriage follows anyone, it does not specifically only refer to the Gnostics. Can only the Gnostics forbid people to marry? No.. What if I said my entire church wanted to imitate Christ? What's so wrong with that? They know that joining the church they cannot marry, and I can give my reasons, that we'll all imitate Christ. What makes it a doctrine of devils now?

 

[Selene]

Selene,

The forbiddance of marriage follows anyone, it does not specifically only refer to the Gnostics. Can only the Gnostics forbid people to marry? No.. What if I said my entire church wanted to imitate Christ? What's so wrong with that? They know that joining the church they cannot marry, and I can give my reasons, that we'll all imitate Christ. What makes it a doctrine of devils now?

I already stated that we do not forbid marriage because we have both married and single priests. Our goal is to imitate Christ. You make it sound as though imitating Christ who is single is a doctrine of the devils. If the Catholic Church actually forbid marriage, ALL the clergy would be single. But that is not the case with the Catholic Church. Married men (even in the western rite Church) has been ordained. Married men are allowed to be ordained deacons. Married converts who were once priests can keep their wives. What actually bothers you is that our priests have voluntarily made a vow of celibacy, and they are willing to make that choice.

Matthew 19:12 For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

Luke 20:34-36 Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.

In God's kingdom, there will be no marriage between husbands and wives. And we are to obey God's Will, not our own will. In God's kingdom, we are not going to do whatever we want. When we arrive in God's kingdom where there is no marriage between husbands and wives, we are not going to tell God that He SHOULD allow people to marry in Heaven. This is why God instilled the commandment "Honor and obey your mother and father. " If one cannot honor and obey their parents, one cannot obey God. The Holy Bible says to obey your Church leaders (Hebrews 13:17). If we cannot obey our Church leaders, then one cannot obey God. God instilled all these commandments to prepare us for His Kingdom. We imitate Christ and look to His Kingdom.

 

[Raeneske]

I already stated that we do not forbid marriage because we have both married and single priests. Our goal is to imitate Christ. You make it sound as though imitating Christ who is single is a doctrine of the devils. If the Catholic Church actually forbid marriage, ALL the clergy would be single. But that is not the case with the Catholic Church. Married men (even in the western rite Church) has been ordained. Married men are allowed to be ordained deacons. Married converts who were once priests can keep their wives. What actually bothers you is that our priests have voluntarily made a vow of celibacy, and they are willing to make that choice.

Matthew 19:12 For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

Luke 20:34-36 Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.

In God's kingdom, there will be no marriage between husbands and wives. And we are to obey God's Will, not our own will. In God's kingdom, we are not going to do whatever we want. When we arrive in God's kingdom where there is no marriage between husbands and wives, we are not going to tell God that He SHOULD allow people to marry in Heaven. This is why God instilled the commandment "Honor and obey your mother and father. " If one cannot honor and obey their parents, one cannot obey God. The Holy Bible says to obey your Church leaders (Hebrews 13:17). If we cannot obey our Church leaders, then one cannot obey God. God instilled all these commandments to prepare us for His Kingdom. We imitate Christ and look to His Kingdom.

Selene,

A voluntary vow of celibacy does not matter to me. You refused to answer my question.

If I told my entire congregation that they cannot marry because we are going to take a vow of celibacy, and that they cannot be in my congregation if they marry because we are all going to imitate Christ, what’s the problem? What makes mine a doctrine of devils, but not yours?

 

[Selene]

Selene,

A voluntary vow of celibacy does not matter to me. You refused to answer my question.

If I told my entire congregation that they cannot marry because we are going to take a vow of celibacy, and that they cannot be in my congregation if they marry because we are all going to imitate Christ, what’s the problem? What makes mine a doctrine of devils, but not yours?

I did answer your question. In my post #347, this is what I stated:

If you start a church stating that everyone has to be celibate, that would be a doctrine of the devils because that is the same doctrines that the Gnostics passed.

 

[Raeneske]

I did answer your question. In my post #347, this is what I stated:

Now please do me a favor. Please show me in the Bible, where it says they must forbid everyone to marry.

 

[Selene]

Now please do me a favor. Please show me in the Bible, where it says they must forbid everyone to marry.

You see, this is where you are not reading my post. We never said that EVERYONE is to remain celibate. That is what the Gnostics teach. You are assuming that the Catholic Church teach that EVERYONE is to remain celibate, and this is false.

I am the one who is Catholic, and I know what my Church teach. You do not. My Church teach that those who are single are to remain celibate because fornication is a sin and we stand against pre-marital sex. We teach that those who are married are to be open to life and remain faithful to their spouse, not committing adultery. And lastly to those who are of the religious order called by God, we teach that they are to imitate Christ. So yes, even those married priests are also told to imitate Christ. And how do married priests imitate Christ? They imitate His obedience and humility.

 

[Raeneske]

You see, this is where you are not reading my post. We never said that EVERYONE is to remain celibate. That is what the Gnostics teach. You are assuming that the Catholic Church teach that EVERYONE is to remain celibate, and this is false.

I am the one who is Catholic, and I know what my Church teach. You do not. My Church teach that those who are single are to remain celibate because fornication is a sin and we stand against pre-marital sex. We teach that those who are married are to be open to life and remain faithful to their spouse, not committing adultery. And lastly to those who are of the religious order called by God, we teach that they are to imitate Christ.

Selene,

Maybe I mispoke. I said, show me where it says everyone in that verse. Meaning that it has to be everyone in the church that has to be celibate, and not just a select group, which the Catholic Church chooses. I never said that the church said everyone must be celibate.

 

[Selene]

Selene,

Maybe I mispoke. I said, show me where it says everyone in that verse. Meaning that it has to be everyone in the church that has to be celibate, and not just a select group, which the Catholic Church chooses. I never said that the church said everyone must be celibate.

Perhaps, you need to clarify your position. Are you accusing the Catholic Church of teaching that everyone in the congregation must be celibate because in the first place that is the main impression I got when you stated the following in your post:

Selene,

You are entirely missing the point. If I told someone to be part of a church that I started, they had to be celibate, wouldn't that be a doctrine of devils? Do I have any place to say, "It's a higher calling!!!" When the Bible clearly forbids me to do such a thing?

My Church teach that those who are single are to remain celibate because fornication is a sin and we stand against pre-marital sex. My Church teach that those who are married are to be open to life and remain faithful to their spouse, not committing adultery. And lastly, my Church teach that to those who are of the religious order called by God, we teach that they are to imitate Christ. So yes, even those married priests are also told to imitate Christ. And how do married priests imitate Christ? They imitate His obedience and humility.

This is what we teach, and if you find any of this teaching wrong or contradictory to the Bible, then please point it out.

 

[Raeneske]

Perhaps, you need to clarify your position. Are you accusing the Catholic Church of teaching that everyone in the congregation must be celibate because in the first place that is the main impression I got when you stated the following in your post:






My Church teach that those who are single are to remain celibate because fornication is a sin and we stand against pre-marital sex. My Church teach that those who are married are to be open to life and remain faithful to their spouse, not committing adultery. And lastly, my Church teach that to those who are of the religious order called by God, we teach that they are to imitate Christ. So yes, even those married priests are also told to imitate Christ. And how do married priests imitate Christ? They imitate His obedience and humility.

This is what we teach, and if you find any of this teaching wrong or contradictory to the Bible, then please point it out.

That’s what I need to clarify. I am not stating that the Catholic Church is preaching that everyone needs to remain celibate.

I am stating that you preach that someone must remain celibate, to become a priest. This is an error of the Catholic Church. Nowhere is this belief found in scripture.

Please don’t post something where it says those in the Kingdom do not marry. We understand this, that’s for when they get there though, and when they are resurrected. We also understand that is good for a man not to touch a woman. However, we also read directly after that that Paul says let them marry. He does not forbid them, but wishes for people to be like him. In such statements, we see that Paul never forces his opinion upon those upon any circumstances. He says, let them marry. For the priests in the Catholic Church, the same thing applies. Let them marry. Sure, one may choose to be celibate as a priest. But as a priest, they should not be forced (and the key here is as a priest, not choosing to become a priest) to be celibate forever if they are unmarried.

I’ll give another example, with the same types of arguments you have given me.
Say I start a church, and I say anyone under the ages of 35 should not marry, nor anyone over the ages of 40. What makes this not a doctrine of devils? I can easily say, the church I am establishing is trying to teach morality, and is trying to teach everyone to imitate Jesus Christ. I can say the same things, but this argument does not make me right. I cannot say that anyone who joins my church by the rules I placed above, they must remain celibate (unless of course they come to the church already married, and want to join and are already married). What gives me license to do this? Absolutely nothing. What gives the Roman Church license to forbid priests to marry? Absolutely nothing.

 

[Selene]

That’s what I need to clarify. I am not stating that the Catholic Church is preaching that everyone needs to remain celibate.

I am stating that you preach that someone must remain celibate, to become a priest. This is an error of the Catholic Church. Nowhere is this belief found in scripture.

Please don’t post something where it says those in the Kingdom do not marry. We understand this, that’s for when they get there though, and when they are resurrected. We also understand that is good for a man not to touch a woman. However, we also read directly after that that Paul says let them marry. He does not forbid them, but wishes for people to be like him. In such statements, we see that Paul never forces his opinion upon those upon any circumstances. He says, let them marry. For the priests in the Catholic Church, the same thing applies. Let them marry. Sure, one may choose to be celibate as a priest. But as a priest, they should not be forced (and the key here is as a priest, not choosing to become a priest) to be celibate forever if they are unmarried.

I’ll give another example, with the same types of arguments you have given me.
Say I start a church, and I say anyone under the ages of 35 should not marry, nor anyone over the ages of 40. What makes this not a doctrine of devils? I can easily say, the church I am establishing is trying to teach morality, and is trying to teach everyone to imitate Jesus Christ. I can say the same things, but this argument does not make me right. I cannot say that anyone who joins my church by the rules I placed above, they must remain celibate (unless of course they come to the church already married, and want to join and are already married). What gives me license to do this? Absolutely nothing. What gives the Roman Church license to forbid priests to marry? Absolutely nothing.

And I already told you that the Church does no such thing because there are also married priests and deacons in our clergy. Married priests are also accepted into the clergy. What actually bothers you is the fact that our priests volunteered and are willing to be celibate because you stated the following:

Please don’t post something where it says those in the Kingdom do not marry. We understand this, that’s for when they get there though, and when they are resurrected.

You misinterpret what Jesus said. Look carefully at what Christ stated:

Matthew 19:12 For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

In this biblical verse above, it is clear that Christ was NOT referring to those who have already died and gone to Heaven. He was speaking of people who renounced marriage because of the Kingdom of Heaven. God called people to follow Him and these people chose to renounce marriage in order to follow Him. So, it is with our nuns and priests.

Therefore, we are not in error because the ordination of the priesthood is not for everyone. Afterall, among His many disciples, Christ called twelve Apostles. Some of those Apostles He called were married and others were single. After being called by Christ, the Apostles who were single remained single and did not take a wife while those who were married did not divorce their wives.

 

[Raeneske]

And I already told you that the Church does no such thing because there are also married priests and deacons in our clergy. Married priests are also accepted into the clergy. What actually bothers you is the fact that our priests volunteered and are willing to be celibate because you stated the following:






You misinterpret what Jesus said. Look carefully at what Christ stated:

Matthew 19:12 For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

In this biblical verse above, it is clear that Christ was NOT referring to those who have already died and gone to Heaven. He was speaking of people who renounced marriage because of the Kingdom of Heaven. God called people to follow Him and these people chose to renounce marriage in order to follow Him. So, it is with our nuns and priests.

Therefore, we are not in error because the ordination of the priesthood is not for everyone. Afterall, among His many disciples, Christ called twelve Apostles. Some of those Apostles He called were married and others were single. After being called by Christ, the Apostles who were single remained single and did not take a wife while those who were married did not divorce their wives.

This is never going to end. So I'm going to state my last point. And I'm going to make myself very clear.

I literally just said I have no problem with those who voluntarily choose to remain celibate, priest or not.
The fact that you allow married men into your clergies makes absolutely no difference. We are talking about single men. How do you forbid a married man to marry? He is also married, and bound by specific rules that can be found within scripture. And I mean specific rules, not church rules. And these single men cannot be married if they become priests. That's how your church teaches it correct? They forbid those who come to the priesthood to marry, correct? Okay then. This is the issue.

Sorry, I must have been referring to the wrong verse, my apologies. Yes, there are men who have renounced marriage for the Kingdom of Heaven. But this does not mean only priests, and that some churches doctrine has forbidden them to do so. Please read my message in it's entirety before getting made about me saying the church forbids marriage of the priests.

The problem here, is with the word choice. Because the Church has already implemented that single men cannot marry who become, it is now solely left upon the decision of the one who becomes a priest, whether they want to or not. My issue is not with the men who choose to remain celibate. My issue is with the church saying that men must be celibate if they come to the priesthood single. Again, my issue is not with the men, it is with the church's doctrine. To forbid anyone to marry as an institution, there would have to rules in place. The rules of the Catholic Church forbid marriage of a priest who comes to the priesthood, as a single man. Because the man chooses to become the priest, with full knowledge of what the Churches rites are, the church turns around and says, "Hey, they chose to comply with our rules". Of course they chose to comply with the rules. But doesn't the word say you can't forbid them to marry? Yes. The Church forbids single men to marry if they become a priest.

So, let me state my issues. Do not accuse me of having another issue, because I am being very specific. My issue is not with the men who choose to remain celibate. My issue is not with the men who want to imitate Jesus Christ. My issue is with the Church rite, which forbids single men who come into the priesthood to marry. I do not agree withit, because the Word of God calls that a doctrine of devils. Notice, the doctrine, is called that of devils. A doctrine is a belief, or set of beliefs held and taught by a church and/or a political party and/or any other group. Church doctrine forbids the marriage of single men who choose to become priests. That is all. Do not twist my words, do not take them out of context to give them a different meaning. I have been simple and plain.

 

[Selene]

This is never going to end. So I'm going to state my last point. And I'm going to make myself very clear.

I literally just said I have no problem with those who voluntarily choose to remain celibate, priest or not.
The fact that you allow married men into your clergies makes absolutely no difference. We are talking about single men. How do you forbid a married man to marry? He is also married, and bound by specific rules that can be found within scripture. And I mean specific rules, not church rules. And these single men cannot be married if they become priests. That's how your church teaches it correct? They forbid those who come to the priesthood to marry, correct? Okay then. This is the issue.

Sorry, I must have been referring to the wrong verse, my apologies. Yes, there are men who have renounced marriage for the Kingdom of Heaven. But this does not mean only priests, and that some churches doctrine has forbidden them to do so. Please read my message in it's entirety before getting made about me saying the church forbids marriage of the priests.

The problem here, is with the word choice. Because the Church has already implemented that single men cannot marry who become, it is now solely left upon the decision of the one who becomes a priest, whether they want to or not. My issue is not with the men who choose to remain celibate. My issue is with the church saying that men must be celibate if they come to the priesthood single. Again, my issue is not with the men, it is with the church's doctrine. To forbid anyone to marry as an institution, there would have to rules in place. The rules of the Catholic Church forbid marriage of a priest who comes to the priesthood, as a single man. Because the man chooses to become the priest, with full knowledge of what the Churches rites are, the church turns around and says, "Hey, they chose to comply with our rules". Of course they chose to comply with the rules. But doesn't the word say you can't forbid them to marry? Yes. The Church forbids single men to marry if they become a priest.

So, let me state my issues. Do not accuse me of having another issue, because I am being very specific. My issue is not with the men who choose to remain celibate. My issue is not with the men who want to imitate Jesus Christ. My issue is with the Church rite, which forbids single men who come into the priesthood to marry. I do not agree withit, because the Word of God calls that a doctrine of devils. Notice, the doctrine, is called that of devils. A doctrine is a belief, or set of beliefs held and taught by a church and/or a political party and/or any other group. Church doctrine forbids the marriage of single men who choose to become priests. That is all. Do not twist my words, do not take them out of context to give them a different meaning. I have been simple and plain.

And hopefully this will be my last post under this thread. In the first place, celibacy is not a doctrine nor a dogma of the Catholic Church. As I said, if it was a doctrine, there would be absolutely no married priests in the Catholic Church. Many Christians often attack the Catholic Church because in their eyes they view celibacy as unnatural and think that marriage should be mandatory.

Many times they would throw verses such as "a bishop should be the husband of one wife" at us and accuse the Catholic Church of going against the Bible. They view that verse as though marriage is mandatory....when it is not.

Furthermore, marriage has certain restrictions, and I'm sure you even know what those restrictions are. A marriage is only between one man and one woman. The restrictions of marriage is 1) a person cannot be married to someone of the same sex, 2) a person cannot be married to more than one person, 3) a person cannot be married to a child, and 4) a person cannot be married to someone of very close relations. Those are the restrictions of marriage.

Well, like marriage, Ordination also has restrictions. One of the restrictions of ordination is that women are not allowed to be ordained as a bishop, priest, or deacon. And yes, the Catholic Church has been attacked on this as well because there are some who think that women should be ordain into the priesthood.

However, single men who have been ordained into the priesthood have already understood this restriction, and they chose celibacy. Even Catholic women understood that they cannot be ordained into the Catholic Church; yet, they chose to become celibate nuns. As I have always been telling you....we never forbid marriage among priests because we have both married and single priests. What you are actually protesting is our restriction of ordination.

St. Paul has always endorsed celibacy. St. Paul conclusion is "He who marries does well and he who refrains from marriage will do better." (1 Corinthians 7:38). In the religious order of the priesthood, single Catholic men are called to imitate Christ who is also single and married men can imitate His obedience and humility. As for the women, they cannot be ordained, but if they feel Christ calling them into the religious order of life, they can choose to become nuns.

 

[Groundzero]

It has everything to do with polygamy. When St. Paul stated that he must be a bishop of ONE wife, he specifies a number because the bishop should not be a husband of TWO or THREE or even FOUR wives. That is why St. Paul specified a number. People already know that divorce is illegal because that is one of God's Ten Commandments.

Nope. It didn't work. lol