I have no idea how to manage to discount the statement in 1st Corinthians then. Both statements cannot be true, and we cannot ignore either one. The truth is out there, and we should seek it. We are responsible for what we believe.
Poll: Do we worship the God of the old covenant?
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The Logos of God BECAME flesh. (Jesus/Y'shua)
The Logos/logic/reason/plan was BEFORE Jesus/Y'shua. (God in flesh)
"Jesus/Y'shua" did not exist before becoming flesh.
John 1:14 NIV
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Matthew 1:21 NIV
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”
Matthew 1:25 NIV
But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
[ cc: @Carl Emerson @Spyder
The Logos/logic/reason/plan was BEFORE Jesus/Y'shua. (God in flesh)
"Jesus/Y'shua" did not exist before becoming flesh.
John 1:14 NIV
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Matthew 1:21 NIV
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”
Matthew 1:25 NIV
But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
[ cc: @Carl Emerson @Spyder
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.”
Jesus is the Word. The trinity pre-existed the creation.
Jesus was not saying that he was Jesus before Abraham.
He was saying that he was "I AM" before Abraham was born.
The "I AM" was in the burning bush.
In my view it was the "I AM" that pre-existed creation.
The Logos of God BECAME flesh. (Jesus/Y'shua)
John 1:14 NIV
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory,
the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Exodus 3:13-14 NIV
Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them,
‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”
14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am.[a] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
[
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
So you are claiming that the Trinity did not exist before Jesus came !!!
So you are claiming that the Trinity did not exist before creation ?
In the beginning was The Word, and The Word was WITH God - and Jesus is the Word.
Yes, the Word (Logos) was with God in the beginning and was God.
The Word/Logos was not Jesus until the Word/Logos became flesh. IMHO
Are you familiar with the Divine Council?
[ 1t 1s @ctually @g@1nst f0rum ru1es t0 d1scu$$ the Tr1n1Ty. - L0L
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
The first defense of the doctrine of the Trxnxtxy was by Tertullian, who was born around 150–160 AD, explicitly "defined" the Txxxxxy as Fxxthxr, Sxn, and Hxly Spxrxt and defended his theology against Praxeas, although he noted that the majority of the believers in his day found issue with his doctrine.
Topic
No trxnxtxrxxn doctrine is explicitly taught in the Old Testament.
To be clear, I am not Anti-Trxnxitarxxn, but there was no Jxsxs until the Logos became flesh.
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If you were wondering where my theology on this came from...
It was a product of this topic/study.
Is the Logos meaningful, or meaningless? - Depends on your view of Logos.
I want to discuss the Logos as what it means before the Logos became flesh. (and dwelt among us) In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. (John 1:1) This tells three things about the Logos. 1) The Logos was from the beginning. 2) The Logos was with...
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Ziggy
Well-Known Member
What about our diminishing the meaning of those words over time?
What if they mean something more that what we think they mean today?
I'm thinking we been dumbed down and calloused to the depths of the meanings of those words.
The old and the new testaments I feel each plays a parental role.
I don't believe it is so much a diminishing as it is a change in parenting.
The heat of the sun to the cool of the moon.
The disciplines are different between mom and dad. Dad is usually a bit more strict and stern, and mom's are easier to play on their emotions.
The old testament is the masculine side of God, and the new testament is the feminine side of God. Or that's how I hear it.
So I would have to say we follow the same God of both the old and the new.
I think our own interpretation of what character means changes over time.
just thinking
hugs
No, Jesus became the word of God.
Before that, He existed only as God's plan for the New Covenant. Search "preexistence" in the Hebrew mindset. The faithful always considered Yahweh's prophecies and "already happened" even though it was yet to come. That is why Yeshua existed before Abraham.
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
The priestly order of Melchizedek of which Jesus is our high priest has neither beginning of time nor end of days.
New topic alert.
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[
A Word for the church (four actually) concerning worship.
My wife shared a point from her devotional reading this morning. "You praise until the spirit of worship comes, you worship until the glory comes, then you stand in the glory." - Ruth Ward Heflin - Praise - Worship - Glory - Stand What it means to me. Praise is the obedient action that we use...
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Ziggy
Well-Known Member
Praise: Be thankful for all things. For all things are from God.
The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.
Worship: To honor, to be humble, to acknowledge that God is all powerful. To give allegience and loyalty.
O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.
Glory: High praise, Splendour.
We have no glory of our own. When we stand in glory we stand in the glory He bestows upon us.
Standing in glory:
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?
O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
Perfect praise is strength, it is power. It is the power of His name which we praise, worship, and stand in his glory.
Hugs
The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.
Worship: To honor, to be humble, to acknowledge that God is all powerful. To give allegience and loyalty.
O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.
Glory: High praise, Splendour.
We have no glory of our own. When we stand in glory we stand in the glory He bestows upon us.
Standing in glory:
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?
O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
Perfect praise is strength, it is power. It is the power of His name which we praise, worship, and stand in his glory.
Hugs
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
I think that's backwards.
The word became flesh and dwelt among us.
Where did the word come from? It came from God.
The word was always with God and in God until he breathed the word into a body he had created for himself to reside in.
The only thing that separates God and Jesus was the flesh body he resided in.
When the power of the flesh was destroyed the spirit returned to God who gave it.
And the body needed a name. And God gave the name Jesus. By which every knee shall bow.
It is His name.
Jehovah is the name God gave under the first covenant. That covenant ended and with it the name that was given to it.
Jesus is the name God gave to the New covenant. This covenant is held together by the power of his name Jesus.
God gave himself a new name.
It doesn't mean Jehovah isn't God. But the power that was in Jehovah's name has been transfered to the new covanant by a new name.
The Title of the covenants are the power of the names given them.
The old covenant has no power, no authority any more.
Only those who remain under the old covenant still abide by the name Jehovah.
Those under the new covenant adopt the new Title God himself put upon it, and that is the name Jesus.
It's still the same God, he just gave himself a new name.
Just like he told Israel a new name when He said his name was Jehovah.
Exo 6:3
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
God Almighty, Jehovah, and Jesus is the same God.
Just different names.
Psa 124:8
Our help is in the name of the LORD, who made heaven and earth.
Eph 3:14
For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15
Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16
That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17
That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18
May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19
And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
What is the difference between the Love of Christ and the Love of God?
Rom 8:35
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:39
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The Love of God is IN Christ Jesus our Lord.
God gave us His Word.
God gave us himself.
You can call God, God Almighty like Abraham did. You can call God Jehovah like Israel did.
But God gave the name Jesus to the world.
For God so loved the world...
That whosoever believeth in him shall be saved.
Who is him but God himself? And His name is Jesus.
Problem is when people hear the name Jesus they see a man. They idolize the image of a man.
They see a body crucified and buried.
But the Spirit that is Jesus is risen because death could not hold him.
Death has no power over God.
Death has power over your carnal body but not your spirit. If so be that the spirit of Christ dwells in you.
That is, God in you.
Jhn 5:42
But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
What is the difference between the love of Christ and the love of God?
I don't see a difference.
Hugs
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
I have found that sharing the Gospel with Jews - reference to Melchizedek is a very effective bridge to understanding about Jesus.
His High Priestly function which supersedes the Mosaic priesthood speaks volumes to His people who have lost their way.
Jesus in the OT is very powerful when seen through this lense.
Heb 5:5
So too Christ did not glorify Himself in becoming a high priest, but it was He who said to Him,
“You are My Son,
Today I have fathered You”;
6 just as He also says in another passage,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”
7 In the days of His humanity, He offered up both prayers and pleas with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His devout behavior. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey Him, 10 being designated by God as High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek.
11 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is difficult to explain, since you have become poor listeners.
Psalm 2:12
Kiss the Son, that He not be angry and you perish on the way, For His wrath may be kindled quickly. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!
His eternal Priesthood was retroactive partnering with the Father from before the beginning of time.
Hopefully you understand that we can only view Jesus as from the beginning retrospectively.
He was not ACTUALLY "Jesus" until the Word/Logos became flesh. Prior to that he was STILL the Logos of God. (which was God)
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Ziggy
Well-Known Member
Remind me someday when we get to heaven to ask God when He chose his own names.
Was the name Jesus just an afterthought? or had he had that name picked out from the beginning?
Why did he reveal his name as Jehovah to Israel and not to Abraham?
When did he come up with the name Jehovah?
What's in a name?
Why do we know him as Jesus and not Emmanuel as the angel gave direction to name him?
Why was it changed from Emmanuel to Jesus?
Mat 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Mat 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Why the change?
Isa 12:2
Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.
When did God know his names?
Someday we can ask him.
Hugs
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
Actually He was given the Fathers Name according to John 17.
The name He was given is the Name above every name because it was the name of the Father.
Scripture records Jesus was a co-worker with the Father at the beginning of time.
Heb 1
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world
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