One and Triune God.

[tigger 2]

Sorry, JW - but you already tried this bit of Scripturally-acrobatic, Jehovah's Witness nonsense back in another thread, where I had to remind you of a few things.
Here is my resposne from that thread - so pay attention . . .

However, only a complete Scriptural illiterate would thinbk that anybody OTHER than Jesus is speaking heere. Allow me to edicate you . . .

Rev. 22:12-17
12“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

WHO is coming soo?
Answer: Jesus (Heb. 9:28, Rev. 3:11)

WHO is the one who will "give to each person according to what they have done"?
Answer: Jesus (Matt. 25:31-46) - The SAME one who is the Alpha and the Omega.

WHAT are the robes of those in the Tribulation "washed" in?
Answer: The blood of the Lamb (Jesus) (Rev. 7:14).

It is JESUS who is speaking through His Angel. in Rev. 7:24 - just as it is GOD speaking through His Angel in Rev. 1:8.
Go spread your JW heresy somewhere else . . .

So, you continue defaming JWs when it is perfectly clear that multitudes of trinitarian scholars are those who have been quoted for you. JWs, other than myself, had nothing to do with the study which I repeated for you and you have basically ignored. By the way, please give references when you quote someone. Which Bible are you quoting?

 

[BreadOfLife]

So, you continue defaming JWs when it is perfectly clear that multitudes of trinitarian scholars are those who have been quoted for you. JWs, other than myself, had nothing to do with the study which I repeated for you and you have basically ignored. By the way, please give references when you quote someone. Which Bible are you quoting?

In EVERY instannce - you can be sure I am NOT quotung from your perverted New World Translation. In most cases, I use Protestant Bblical sources here like the ESV and KJV so that the anti-Catholic here can't accuse me of using "Catholic sources".

The poit is - I showed you the gaping hols in your argument simply by ctoss-referencing the verses in question which are unquestionably about Jesus.

 

[tigger 2]

Apparently you don't understand the necessity of and the method of supplying references. Everything you quote from a source must have a complete reference. Author, Book, Page, Publisher & Date if possible. For Bible quotes a writer must have the name of the Bible, the writer, and chapter and verse of his writing.

It's amazing how many avoid the necessity of proper referencing!

Please explain the "gaping hols" [sic] in detail for me (with references, of course).

After all, I have given you fifteen (including catholic) trinitarian Bibles which deny your obsession that Jesus spoke the words "Alpha and Omega" in Rev. 22.

 

[Rich R]

So, you continue defaming JWs when it is perfectly clear that multitudes of trinitarian scholars are those who have been quoted for you. JWs, other than myself, had nothing to do with the study which I repeated for you and you have basically ignored. By the way, please give references when you quote someone. Which Bible are you quoting?

How can you reason with anyone who does not see the total disconnect in this "proof" diagram?



Apparently, it is no longer true that 3 things equal to the same thing are equal to each other. If that's true, words have no meaning whatsoever. Given that, how can any meaningful conversation be expected?

 

[EloyCraft]

How can you reason with anyone who does not see the total disconnect in this "proof" diagram?

View attachment 21512

Apparently, it is no longer true that 3 things equal to the same thing are equal to each other. If that's true, words have no meaning whatsoever. Given that, how can any meaningful conversation be expected?

Just a bunch a brow thumping knee slappers us trinitarians are. Can't understand normal thinkin'

Ain't had no learnin' no schoolhousin'
No meaningful conversation possible.

 

[Rich R]

Just a bunch a brow thumping knee slappers us trinitarians are. Can't understand normal thinkin'

Ain't had no learnin' no schoolhousin'
No meaningful conversation possible.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that. I was just pointing out the normal rules of logic that trinitarians apparently deny. I didn't make up the rules of logic, nor do I say what Trinitarians say. I'm just putting 2 and 2 together.

Does the diagram make logical sense or not?

You may or may not have read where I said I know many Trinitarians that are frankly better servants of God than myself, so you can hardly say I think they lack learning or schooling. Nobody knows everything. Nonetheless, in this one point of logic they do get off kilter. In the whole scheme of things though it's no big deal. God knows our hearts. He can hardly blame someone for falling for a lie that's been repeated for 2,000 years now. You know what they say about an oft repeated lie; it becomes the "truth."

 

[EloyCraft]

We see the height of human reason in the establishment of philosophy.
That there is one God and creator can be known by reason alone.
The Egyptian creation myth is human reason making sense of long observation over generations.

Human reason is incapable of knowing God as three Person's without divine help. If God had not entered human life God as three wouldn't have been revealed.

 

[JunChosen]

Apparently, it is no longer true that 3 things equal to the same thing are equal to each other. If that's true, words have no meaning whatsoever. Given that, how can any meaningful conversation be expected?

Jesus said.:Seeing they may see and not perceive." Before this, He said, "And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without [outside], all theses things are done in parables.

I've always maintained that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are equal in substance and essence, but they are three different and distinct, separate as to persons.

However, I believe your diagonal diagram is upside down. The top point should be the word Father. the left bottom the Holy Spirit, and right bottom the Son. And at the center the word God.

 

[JunChosen]

He can hardly blame someone for falling for a lie that's been repeated for 2,000 years now. You know what they say about an oft repeated lie; it becomes the "truth.

And what lie is this that's been repeated for 2,000 years now? Did I miss something?

 

[Oseas]

We possess free will. Satan has distorted it's meaning.
Free will is an ability. It is the ability to do what ought to be done. Jesus demonstrated perfect freedom.

Then the freedom of choice. We aren't good ourselves. We do this or that because its good.Thats free will. If we were good we wouldn't do this or that because its good, it's good because we did it. That's divine freedom.

I posted what is evident and obvious in regards of free will. If you would address free will as I described. I think my version is true.

No evident, not obvious. Your thinking is from a human perspective, a stumbling block, not from God's perspective!

With regard to choose to do evil deeds and sin, it is not you who choose to commit them, but the spirit of the Devil within you makes the choice in your heart, uses your brain and your body to do what he wants to do, and you obey him, like a robot, and do according to his command, just the way the Devil likes, and it is reflected in your satisfaction at having done what you did by the Devil's spirit - Genesis 3:v.6. It is he who decides and makes the choice within you, not you yourself, because you have his nature, the same nature as the devil, and you commit sin, the criminal act, the way the devil likes it, he has total dominion over you, over your body, made of the dust of the earth, the Devil feeds exclusively of the dust of the earth, your body was/is made of the dust of the earth.
There is no free will from GOD Himself; free will is only from the Devil himself, it is a devilish tares.
Paul Apostle, said ... I am carnal, sold under sin. Romans 7:v.14

 

[EloyCraft]

No evident, not obvious. Your thinking is from a human perspective, a stumbling block, not from God's perspective!

With regard to choose to do evil deeds and sin, it is not you who choose to commit them, but the spirit of the Devil within you makes the choice in your heart, uses your brain and your body to do what he wants to do, and you obey him, like a robot, and do according to his command, just the way the Devil likes, and it is reflected in your satisfaction at having done what you did by the Devil's spirit - Genesis 3:v.6. It is he who decides and makes the choice within you, not you yourself, because you have his nature, the same nature as the devil, and you commit sin, the criminal act, the way the devil likes it, he has total dominion over you, over your body, made of the dust of the earth, the Devil feeds exclusively of the dust of the earth, your body was/is made of the dust of the earth.
There is no free will from GOD Himself; free will is only from the Devil himself, it is a devilish tares.
Paul Apostle, said ... I am carnal, sold under sin. Romans 7:v.14

Odd that I feel the guilt when someone else chooses the evil.
Why do I get punished for doing something evil if I'm not the one willing to do the evil?


The fact that there is a mental faculty hardwired to judge deeds in real time and dispense punishment or reward is pretty much proof that we have free will.
You can't recreate human nature to fit your theology. You can't remove powers natural to human life to fit your interpretation of Scripture.

What is is what is.... If you say that humans have one arm but people can see two, to continue debating and searching for proofs that the second arm is an intellectual concoction imagined by those who claim to see it is foolishness.

 

[Oseas]

Odd that I feel the guilt when someone else chooses the evil.
Why do I get punished for doing something evil if I'm not the one willing to do the evil?


The fact that there is a mental faculty hardwired to judge deeds in real time and dispense punishment or reward is pretty much proof that we have free will.
You can't recreate human nature to fit your theology. You can't remove powers natural to human life to fit your interpretation of Scripture.

What is is what is.... If you say that humans have one arm but people can see two, to continue debating and searching for proofs that the second arm is an intellectual concoction imagined by those who claim to see it is foolishness.

Again, your thinking is from a mere human perspective, a stumbling block, not from God's perspective! "

He that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from above is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that GOD is true.

1 Corinthians 2:v.14
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[EloyCraft]

Again, your thinking is from a mere human perspective, a stumbling block, not from God's perspective! "

Thanks but even if true it redirects focus from the subject (free will) to me. A human and earthly creature .

He that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from above is above all. An

Human reason is different than Divine Revelation. Faith from above requires faith to offer reason opportunity to ascent to it's revelation.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That's me. I must really try your patience.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Anima said:
As we read, the apostles were instructed to invoke in the name (singular) of the following three (plural): the father, the son, and the holy spirit, each separate being serving a particular role, yet they all are the one God, and thus are called "God."[/QUOTE\]


The phrase, "in the name of," means, "in recognition of."
So being baptized, in the name of the Father, would mean, that a person would recognize that a relationship with YHWH God who is the creator and source of all life involved recognizing him as the provider of salvation by means of his Only Begotten Son.

That baptized, in the name of the Son, would mean, accepting Jesus role in our relationship with the Creator, acknowledging what he has done for you and accepting the authority that the Father and God of Jesus has given him, as the Chief Agent of life.

That baptized, in the name of the Holy Spirit, would mean, a person recognizes or acknowledges the Holy Spirit role in God's purposes.That YHWH God guides and leads the Christian congregation through his Holy Spirit and recognizes its role in our life and gratefully cooperates with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Rich R]

And what lie is this that's been repeated for 2,000 years now? Did I miss something?

I know it's along thread here, but if you recall, the OP is about a triune god. I had to look back myself. :)

 

[Rich R]

We see the height of human reason in the establishment of philosophy.
That there is one God and creator can be known by reason alone.
The Egyptian creation myth is human reason making sense of long observation over generations.

Human reason is incapable of knowing God as three Person's without divine help. If God had not entered human life God as three wouldn't have been revealed.

Isa 1:18,

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
​

Reason:

H3198 יָכחַ yakach (yaw-kach') v.
1. to be right (i.e. correct).
​

yakach is used 55 times. It's a good word study that will show that God is concerned with reality. God NEVER tells us to take something "by blind faith," including a trinity which says a son can be his own father. That just breaks any and all common sense.​

Faith:

H529 אֵמוּן 'emuwn (ay-moon') n-m.
1. established.
2. (figuratively) trusty.
3. (abstractly) trustworthiness.

G4102 πίστις pistis (piy'-stis) n.
1. a trust.
2. a firm persuasion, a confidence.
​

Faith is trust, which comes as we learn more about something. You have faith the chair will hold you up because, based on years of actual experience, you trust it won't collapse on you. You may not have as much faith or trust if I were to say, "Hey brother, sit down and make yourself comfortable on my new invisible "Air Chair."

God designed our brain to understand things that make sense. He does not expect us to trust in things that are not logical. I think it fair to say the trinity is not logical (see my diagram. turn it any way you want, it breaks a basic law of logic), so God would never as us to believe it.

As you study God's word you become more familiar with Him and hence your faith or trust in Him grows. It is impossible to have genuine faith or trust in something that you can't comprehend in a reasonable way.

If someone can convince other people of even one logical disconnect, the door is wide open to make any unreasonable claim they want and make those people believe it. The sky is the limit.

Technically, nobody actually believes in the trinity. They just say they do to get along with the crowd I guess.

 

[EloyCraft]

Divine Revelation requires faith so reason is given time and opportunity to ascent to the knowledge revealed.
To form a language that can give it accurate expression

 

[JunChosen]

Technically, nobody actually believes in the trinity. They just say they do to get along with the crowd I guess.

REALLY? Again, I repeat, and say you indeed lack in knowledge! Don't you even pay heed and scared of the consequences when throwing out words and ideas in the market place? [Hosea 4:5]

9) Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10) Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11) Verily, verily I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12) If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall you believe, if I told you of heavenly things?

I believe the largest denomination in the world which is over one billion strong is the Catholic Church and they believe in the Trinity! Go figure.

 

[JunChosen]

It is impossible to have genuine faith or trust in something that you can't comprehend in a reasonable way

You mean that you can't "see" and NOT comprehend because you are not spiritual? Jesus is the very essence of faith. It is He who is faithful, hence He is the gift.

"For by grace are you saved through faith [JESUS] and that NOT of yourselves: it is the gift of God." we read.

Jesus is the gift and never through our faith!

 

[JunChosen]

T2 replied: "Do you mean like the trinitarian translators of the KJV or most other Bibles?"

Are you saying the KJV Bible does NOT contain the word of God and therefore NOT TRUSTWORTHY????

For a surety you you jest, yes?

To God Be The Glory