Once Saved....always Saved - Results of Questionnaire.

[GodsGrace]

You said: '...as long as you keep yourself saved.'

So, if you develop Alzheimer's Disease and then you chose to deny Christ and reject Him. What then?
You have not kept 'yourself saved', as you proclaim above.
You have lost your salvation.

If you chose it, you can lose it.

P.S. The alzheimer's example is rather silly.
Do you not believe that God is a JUST God??

 

[Taken]

I believe we have free will.
I believe that free will is not taken away when we become born again.
Adam and Eve had free will to eat the forbidden fruit.
They had free will to disobey God.
Unless you can show me WHEN or HOW we lost this free will, I'll have to believe that we have free will to both choose God and forsake God.

When a man CHOOSES God, he does so with the THOUGHTS of his "natural spirit" in his "natural heart".

Which means...a man MAKES his Freewill CHOICE,
"BY" his own FREEWILL.
"BY" his "natural corrupt spirit".

IMMEDIATELY after the man MAKES his FREEWILL Choice,
"BY" the thoughts of his "natural corrupt spirit"....

His "natural corrupt spirit" becomes born again of Gods Seed.

How does a "natural corrupt spirit", that no longer exists....Choose ANYTHING?

You are claiming, your "natural corrupt DEAD spirit" has freewill...

How is that possible?

God bless,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

Elaborate....
When was this supposed false invention established?
What Protestant established this supposed false invention?
What were the facts, premise, reasoning for this supposed false invention?

Didn't you claim you were Saved?
And then didn't you claim you were in the process of being Saved?
Which is it?
And what exactly does Catholics teach Salvation means?

I'm sure you being such a proficient self-proclaimed teacher, you will have no problem answering such simple questions without too much fuss and fanfair. IOW, direct and to the point without adding irrelevant options and back patting and finger pointing.

Actually - I don't know HOW much more "direct" I can be than I have been . . .

The false Protestant doctrine of OSAS was hatched by John Calvin in the 16th century.

It's based in Scripture - taken OUT of context. There are several verses that appear to support this fairy tale - but there are MORE that support the idea that we have a free will and can turn away from God whenever WE choose. I have listed many f these verses about 18 times on this tread alone.

As for MY salvation - I believe as the Bible teaches - that salvation is a process by which we can walk away at ANY time.
The Bible says of me as a Christian:

We as Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe.

However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it ALSO says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.

I can stop this process during my lifetime ANY time I choose to - or I can remain faithful to the end.

 

[Helen]

[The SALVATION "process"...

Considerating .... Jesus, the Jew, sent Jewish men to teach the Jewish Lost, what WAS and what IS now.

Gee - should we hear of the Jewish men (teaching) of what WAS for the Hebrew, the Jew,? duh...

what "WAS"~
Believing in God, Believing in His Messiah "shall come"
Obedience "TO" the Law, Consequences of disobedience "TO" the Law....
Enduring "TO" their end, "BECOMING" saved in their "END" "BY" their belief "AND GOOD WORKS"!!

Gee...WHY recap ? Oh ya, they were LOST!

What "IS"
DING, DING, DING, Listen up Jews...
YOUR awaited for MESSIAH HAS ARRIVED!
WE (your teachers) have seen Him, testify OF HIM; Listen, Hear, Trust, Believe...

Listen & Hear...WHAT "WAS" is PAST!

TRUST & Believe...
TEMPORARY animal BLOOD...........IS PAST.
Repeated SIN offering of animals...IS PAST.
Repeated FORGIVENESS...............IS PAST.
Waiting for SALVATION.................IS PAST.
Enduring to YOUR END.................IS PAST.
Being SUBJECT TO the LAW...........IS PAST.
The OLD WAY..................IS PASSED AWAY.

A NEW WAY ARRIVED...!!!!

TRUST & BELIEVE...

A PERMANENT BLOOD..................IS NOW.
A PERMANENT FORGIVENESS........IS NOW.
A PERMANENT CLEANSING............IS NOW.
A PERMANENT SANCTIFICATION....IS NOW.
A PERMANENT JUSTIFICATION.......IS NOW.
A PERMANENT SALVATION.............IS NOW.
A PERMANENT QUICKENING......,...IS NOW.
A PERMANENT SUBJECTION TO "CHRIST"
..................................................IS NOW.

TRUST & BELIEVE & "ACCEPT" and the NOW is YOURS to HAVE and KEEP .......FOREVER! <SNIP>

The first half...(which I read)...was very good.
Maybe all the rest was good too. :)

 

[BreadOfLife]

That's the lie the devil's feeding you. We "cooperate" because of thankfulness, not works. - Heb 13:8

Col 2:6-8 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness. 8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

Heb 12:28-29 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29for our “God is a consuming fire.”

Really??

Why, then is Paul TELLING his readers to "continue" to live their lives in Him and to "be thankful"??
Why is he WARNING them NOT fall captive to deceptive philosophy. If these things are supposed to be and "automatic" response"to God's grace - why do they need to be admonished and warned??

This is where your house of cards collapses . . .

 

[Helen]

I think this thread should be re-titled :-
"The Last Man Standing.." :)

 

[GodsGrace]

Show me where my free will choice has been removed.
There is no scripture that will prove this to be true.

@Taken

 

[Triumph1300]

Faith = Salvation
No Faith = No Salvation

Yes, that's the bottom line.

 

[Taken]

The false Protestant doctrine of OSAS was hatched by John Calvin in the 16th century.

First of all, How about leaving your OPINON out of the conversation, and stick to the FACTS?

No one cares of your OPINION of John Calvin.

It's based in Scripture

Now you present a FACT.
Saying John Calvin's understanding is based in Scripture. Okay.

What Scripture?

- taken OUT of context.

That is simply again, your opinion.
What Scripture did Calvin base his understanding on?

There are several verses that appear to support

But you fail to say what these Several Scriptures are that Calvin used.
AND "IF" these Scriptures were John Calivin's basis for HIS understanding.

this fairy tale -

Now twice you have slandered John Calvin, with nothing more than your opinion, and no pertinent facts.

but there are MORE that support the idea that we have a free will and can turn away from God whenever WE choose.

So after slandering John Calvin, and giving your opinion....you are going to attempt to PROVE John Calvin wrong....with ONLY your Scriptures?

How is that JUST, to only have YOUR opinion and YOUR selected Scriptures?

How about the FACTS and Scripture according to Calvin? Why did you not include that?

As for MY salvation - I believe as the Bible teaches - that salvation is a process by which we can walk away at ANY time.

Initial Salvation
LIFELONG process
WILL BE SAVED Final Sanctification/Salvation

So you have listed four phases of YOUR Salvation.

What do you believe is being acutally SAVED, during each Phase?

Could you repeat Each phase, and write next to it what exactly IS being Saved during that phase?

Your body? Your soul? Your spirit? All 3?
Something other than that?

 

[Taken]

Show me where my free will choice has been removed.
There is no scripture that will prove this to be true.

@Taken

There is no Scripture that says your FREEWILL is removed.

The Scripture teaches to EXERCISE your Freewill to Choose Him.

Now IF you EXERCISE that Freewill from the thoughts of your OLD spirit in your OLD flesh.

How can YOU change that decision....
Without an OLD spirit and OLD heart?

Perhaps an analogy.
Say YOU have freewill to speak with YOUR mouth....and YOU DO speak with YOUR mouth, making a confession to God.
Once your confession is freely made to God;
He cuts your tongue off.
How do you NOW speak with your mouth and UNDO that confession?

God Bless,
Taken

 

[tabletalk]

P.S. The alzheimer's example is rather silly.
Do you not believe that God is a JUST God??

Yes, He is just. I don't think the alzheimer's example is silly. There are many other conditions to suffer from which could really change a person's mind or behavior.
So in any situation or condition a person is in during their lifetime, you have stated: "So yes, we can choose it and we can lose it."

I'm not trying to denigrate your beliefs: both Arminians and Calvinists can be saved. My opinion.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is no Scripture that says your FREEWILL is removed.

The Scripture teaches to EXERCISE your Freewill to Choose Him.

Now IF you EXERCISE that Freewill from the thoughts of your OLD spirit in your OLD flesh.

How can YOU change that decision....
Without an OLD spirit and OLD heart?

Perhaps an analogy.
Say YOU have freewill to speak with YOUR mouth....and YOU DO speak with YOUR mouth, making a confession to God.
Once your confession is freely made to God;
He cuts your tongue off.
How do you NOW speak with your mouth and UNDO that confession?

God Bless,
Taken

Are you speaking about total depravity?
The tongue analogy is kind of like @tabletalk's alzheimer analogy.
When you take scripture out of context and change what it means, you have to then come up with ideas that make no sense.

Please stick to scripture so we could have an adult conversation.
We have a sin nature, but we are not totally depraved as Calvin taught.
I hate to mention him all the time, but Calvinism does have Calvin's name in it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, He is just. I don't think the alzheimer's example is silly. There are many other conditions to suffer from which could really change a person's mind or behavior.
So in any situation or condition a person is in during their lifetime, you have stated: "So yes, we can choose it and we can lose it."

I'm not trying to denigrate your beliefs: both Arminians and Calvinists can be saved. My opinion.

I don't know that anyone is a "pure" arminian or a "pure" Calvinist. So it's good to just discuss the ideas of each. Or the doctrine, I should say.

My father died of Alzheimer's. He was a born again person, out of the Catholic church and ended up with Protestant doctrinal beliefs. He was 87. If one can no longer think straight, why would a good God punish him for it? It's like the age of reason.
God will not punish someone who does not understand.

The problem I have with Calvinism is that it changes the nature of God.
It changes a good and loving God, 1 John 4:8 GOD IS LOVE, into a God that picks and chooses who will go to heaven and who will go to hell.

All free will is removed so we basically become puppets in God's hands.
It totally does away with John 3:16 and does not give us the opportunity to decide to be saved.

I also believe as you do that Jesus saves us for believing in Him, not for the doctrine to which we adhere.

 

[Taken]

Are you speaking about total depravity?
The tongue analogy is kind of like @tabletalk's alzheimer analogy.
When you take scripture out of context and change what it means, you have to then come up with ideas that make no sense.

Please stick to scripture so we could have an adult conversation.
We have a sin nature, but we are not totally depraved as Calvin taught.
I hate to mention him all the time, but Calvinism does have Calvin's name in it.

I don't know what Calvin thought...and seems irrelevant if you want to stick to Scripture.

So show me in scripture, when you make a freewill commitment to give your life to Christ, you can change your yes to no.

And by what thoughts, do you change your yes to no.....your mind or your spirit?

God Bless,
Taken

 

[tabletalk]

I don't know that anyone is a "pure" arminian or a "pure" Calvinist. So it's good to just discuss the ideas of each. Or the doctrine, I should say.

My father died of Alzheimer's. He was a born again person, out of the Catholic church and ended up with Protestant doctrinal beliefs. He was 87. If one can no longer think straight, why would a good God punish him for it? It's like the age of reason.
God will not punish someone who does not understand.

The problem I have with Calvinism is that it changes the nature of God.
It changes a good and loving God, 1 John 4:8 GOD IS LOVE, into a God that picks and chooses who will go to heaven and who will go to hell.

All free will is removed so we basically become puppets in God's hands.
It totally does away with John 3:16 and does not give us the opportunity to decide to be saved.

I also believe as you do that Jesus saves us for believing in Him, not for the doctrine to which we adhere.

I wasn't a believer when my Dad died, many years ago. And I would love to have confidence he was born again; I just don't know.
I do believe God will save a 'born again' Alzheimer's person, thinking straight or not.

 

[GodsGrace]

I wasn't a believer when my Dad died, many years ago. And I would love to have confidence he was born again; I just don't know.
I do believe God will save a 'born again' Alzheimer's person, thinking straight or not.

How do any of us know anything about others for sure? We can only know our relationship with God and maybe the relationship those close to us have with Him.
My husband is not born again. I've had to learn to live with this...but again, no one knows the heart of another. Once we get to heaven, we will no longer have these thoughts and we'll finally be in peace.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't know what Calvin thought...and seems irrelevant if you want to stick to Scripture.

So show me in scripture, when you make a freewill commitment to give your life to Christ, you can change your yes to no.

And by what thoughts, do you change your yes to no.....your mind or your spirit?

God Bless,
Taken

Our thought begin in the soul, that would be our mind.
Then they move into our spirit. When our spirit moves far from God, we are in danger of being lost.

Many times we can be angry with God or think that we've had enough. But spontaneous thought are not sin, but an action of the soul. It's what we do with these thoughts that matter. Do we dismiss them, or do we let them invade our spirit part?

As to scripture:
There is a lot of scripture that shows we can lose our salvation. Paul spoke of it many times --- if he spoke of it, it must surely mean that it can be true. In the verses I had posted above it says many times IF we remain faithful. IF means that we either can or we cannot.

Regarding the changing of our mind...
Mathew 13:20-21
Seed was sown on the rocky places. The person heard the word with JOY.
But Jesus said it was only TEMPORARY. When affliction came, the person turned away --- he turned, he changed his mind and abandoned God.

2 Peter 2:20-21
Someone has ESCAPED the defilements of the world by the KNOWLEDGE (knowing intimately) of our Lord and Savior Jesus.
But then they are AGAIN entangled in the defilements of the world and are OVERCOME.

So in each case they were saved, and then became unsaved.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Really??

Why, then is Paul TELLING his readers to "continue" to live their lives in Him and to "be thankful"??
Why is he WARNING them NOT fall captive to deceptive philosophy. If these things are supposed to be and "automatic" response"to God's grace - why do they need to be admonished and warned??

This is where your house of cards collapses . . .

BOL, the warnings are not to lose salvation but to live a better life in Christ and to stay on the right path. Trying to keep your self saved by what you do is human tradition, no? God bless.

Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

 

[Taken]

I wasn't a believer when my Dad died, many years ago. And I would love to have confidence he was born again; I just don't know.
I do believe God will save a 'born again' Alzheimer's person, thinking straight or not.

The Lord knows a mans true thoughts in his heart. Some people during their life are never verbal (for numerous reasons) about their thoughts in belief of the Lord.
Perhaps you can reflect back to ever recalling your Dad saying he didn't believe.
If you can not recollect that, that may ease your confidence in knowing.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Our thought begin in the soul, that would be our mind.

How did you conclude the soul IS the mind?

Then they move into our spirit.

How would you describe a mans "spirit", and where is "that spirit" ?

When our spirit moves far from God, we are in danger of being lost.

Which spirit? The "natural spirit of man" or the "born again spirit of man" ?

And which spirit of man...CAN move away from God....the "natural spirit of man" or the "born again spirit of man"? And Why?

Just want your take to see first of all if we are on the same page, of what's what.

As to scripture:
There is a lot of scripture that shows we can lose our salvation.

True. However, understanding what that means, is paramount.

What does that means to you?

That you can receive it then Lose it?
Or that you can Lose it because you never received it?

Regarding the changing of our mind.

Before delving in to the mind changing...
Let's see where we stand in agreement or not of what the mind is.

Then can address your scriptures and comment.

God Bless,
Taken