No scripture contradicts rapture teaching

[bbyrd009]

um...ya.

 

[bbyrd009]

No scripture contradicts pre-trib rapture teaching

The bible says that Christ comes as a thief and no man knows the day and the hour. If I give me estimations on the end-time I would have to go with Isaac Newton....

And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half. Daniel 12:7

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060." - Isaac Newton

As Charlemagne was crowned king on December 25, 800 by Pope Leo the III so the day of Christ's coming will be on Christmas Day, 2060. If the rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) occurs seven years before the time of Christs coming the date of the rapture 12.25 2053. However Isaac Newton notes

It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton

So I would have....

Rapture - Christmas day, 2053
Return of Christ - Christmas day, 2060

But... The bible says...

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24

So though I may have an elaborate date prediction going on, yet I must say it is my best bet. Christ Jesus told me to be ready, for as such an hour as I think not the Son of Man cometh, which scripture also leads me to believe that it is pre-trib. It could happen today! And if I am mistaken about today it may come tomorrow! If I am ready for it I have nothing to loose and have walked obedient to scripture.

What is really sad is when people build elaborate end time predictions, and then hold those who do not agree with them as heretics. If Christ says the Father only knows of that day, then we must consider all date prediction and elaborate date predictions, including mine, stabs in the dark!

And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. - Acts 1:7

Pre-trib teaching is a product of the gentile mind. We do our best with what we have learned, but even after that there is no way of nailing exact dates, which the Father has put in his own power. So it pays to be ready on a daily basis, just in case, which they probably are, our date predictions are in error.

you might come to see that no one knows the day or hour is another way of saying that it will happen for everyone at different times in their walk. The rapture doctrine is a pretty new addition to Christianity, although Ezekiel previously condemned it in his discourse on "pillows" and "soft landings," which were also forwarded by "women" then, just like in the late 19th century. peace.

 

[rockytopva]

I was brought up pre-trib in a big Baptist denomination up in Michigan before coming to Virginia. My pastor use to take us to conferences and it was amazing to see the people. The men looked like gentleman and the woman looked like ladies. Very clean and well dressed. It would seem to me that the ladies in their pretty dresses looked like the angels from heaven.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. - 1 John 3:2-3

Nowadays the people no longer look like the angels from heaven, almost the other way around. There is also very little genuine purity among the people, And I feel that this is because of the lack of imminent rapture teaching.

I myself believe that Isaac Newton's 2060 AD Christ return date is closest and that we have a few decades left here on planet earth. I must worry though, that without imminent rapture teaching, that people are really going loose their purity in the time frame and take on the properties of demonic spirits if they are not careful.

 

[bbyrd009]

Well, being as how you have ignored Ezekiel's warnings about soft landings and pillows, all i might say is that the fruit of this doctrine seems pretty obvious. Ezekiel certainly cursed it. At the least i would say that there is a better way to understand "meet Him in the air" that the rapture doctrine occludes. I notice also that there is generally an implicit sense of avoiding reaping what you sow, also, with this idea. I have even heard believers go so far as to state that it is ok to trash this earth, because Jesus is going to come back and blink His eyes, i guess, and majikally make us a new earth. Being unconscious today becomes accepted.

It has even been said here that "God is not too worried about today," which i suggest is a dangerous pov, in the face of other Scripture...or should i say "Scripture," because i know of none that might support that.

 

[bbyrd009]

17“Now, son of man, turnm toward the women of your people who prophesyn out of their own imagination. Prophesy against themo
18and say: This is what the Lord GOD says: Woe to the women who sew magic bands on the wrist of every hand and who make veils for the heads of people of every height in order to ensnare lives. Will you ensnare the lives of My people but preserve your own?p
19You profane Me in front of My people for handfuls of barleyq and scraps of bread; you kill those who should not die and spare those who should not live, when you lie to My people, who listen to lies.
20“Therefore, this is what the Lord GOD says: I am against your magic bands that you ensnare people with like birds, and I will tear them from your arms. I will free the people you have ensnared like birds.
21I will also tear off your veils and deliver My people from your hands,rso that they will no longer be prey in your hands. Then you will know that I am Yahweh.
22Because you have disheartened the righteous person with lies, even though I have not caused him grief,s and because you have encouraged the wickedt person not to turn from his evil way to save his life,
23therefore you will no longer see false visions or practice divination.u I will deliver My people from your hands. Then you will know that I am Yahweh.”

17Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,
18And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
19And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?
20Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
21Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
22Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
23Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

imo wouldn't hurt to read 1-16 too, seems pretty apropos. We also have "If anyone points and says 'There it is,' don't follow them."

 

[The Good Path]

Well, lets start off here with the 'granddaddy' of them all, the Rapturist's 'big-gun' so to speak. And I must honestly admit that at face value, taking this verse alone and removing it from the context of the forth chapter of 1st Thessalonians, it would appear as though this is the 'smoking gun' of the Rapture theory. But then that is the inherent problem with all of those who throw 'one-liners' and 'random verses' at people from the pulpit; They can mould a nice neat little package of out-of-context and unrelated Scriptures into anything they wish to. Below is the Rapturist's Crowning Glory, their 'Hope Diamond,' and their 'Holy Grail':

1Thes 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (KJV)

Sounds good, doesn't it? I will even admit that the above verse, sitting here on the page all naked and alone sure sounds like a Rapture to me. But I don't have the luxury of looking through the wrong end of a telescope. I, as all serious Bible students are exhorted to do as the Berean's did: "...and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." {Acts 17:11}, and, "...comparing spiritual things with spiritual." {1 Cor 2:13}.

Below, we shall do what the Rapture teachers cannot possibly be doing, we will look at this verse in the context that the Holy Spirit put it in. We will back-up and pick it up a couple of verses before this one and to set the subject and the object of the verse clearly in our minds, so as to be assured that we are interpreting it in the proper context.

1Thes 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant#1, brethren, concerning them which are asleep#2, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope#3.

Explanation of above: #1 I would not have you to be ignorant: = Apostle Paul is telling us that he wishes to inform us of something so that we are not without understanding in the matter. #2 concerning them which are asleep: = Paul is now telling us what it is that he wishes to understand; He wants us to know what happens to those who 'sleep' (die). #3 that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope: = Paul is saying that the reason that he wants to inform us of what happens when people die is so that we do not feel sad like those who have no hope of a resurrection into everlasting life (the heathen, who believe not upon Christ, having no hope of a resurrection into eternal life). Paul does not want us Christians to be like the heathen unbelievers. The subject of these verses is: "Where are the dead?" Nothing more, nothing less.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again#1, even so them also which sleep in Jesus#2 will God bring with him#3.

Explanation of above: #1 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again: = Paul is saying that we Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead, that is what makes us Christians. #2 even so them also which sleep in Jesus: = In like manner as Jesus died and resurrected, so also will those who died in Christ (as Christians) resurrect from the dead into an eternal life. #3 God bring with him: = God will bring these resurrected Christians with Him. God can 'bring them with Him' because they are already with Him. You cannot 'bring' someone with you unless they are with you prior to the 'bringing.' At the moment of death, our spiritual body and soul return to God and our flesh body decomposes back to the dust whence it came (i.e., carbon, minerals...).

There is a greater truth in this verse that has been twisted by the Rapture teachers. They tell us that this is saying "the dead will be Raptured (along with the living 'saints' during the Rapture)." This is incorrect on many fronts. For one, it says "which sleep in Jesus" and then that "God bring with him". Jesus and God are two different words. One is the Son of God on the earth and one is Almighty God in Heaven Himself. Observe below:

Jesus: Greek word #2424 Iesous (ee-ay-sooce'); of Hebrew origin [3091]; Jesus (i.e. Jehoshua), the name of our Lord and two (three) other Israelites. [this is Jesus Christ the Son of God].

God: Greek word #2316 theos (theh'-os); of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with 3588) the definite article [which IS present in the Greek manuscripts here!] the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very. [This is Almighty God the Father].

Now according to their Rapture theory, it is Jesus the Son of God who comes to Rapture people away, therefore the phrase from the above Scripture "God bring with him" can make no sense regarding their Rapture theory.

However, we know from the Bible that Jesus Christ shall come to earth at His Second Advent. What the phrase "God bring with him" really means is that God shall resurrect the dead into eternal life THROUGH the atoning work of Jesus Christ. Once again, this is simply stating that just as Christ resurrected from the dead into eternal life, we also can be resurrected into the life eternal through Christ Jesus.

Dr. E.W. Bullinger, in the The Companion Bible describes this phase as: "God will through Jesus bring with Him." pg.1792. We would ask you: bring where? We know that Almighty God Himself is not physically present with His creation until the "New Heaven and new earth' {Rev 21:1}, so He (God) isn't bringing anyone anywhere until after Judgment day {Rev 20:11-15}. We observe that the verse started out with "Jesus died and rose again", so therefore, what it is saying is that God will bring them (those who sleep/died in good standing through/with Jesus) into the resurrection through Jesus Christ. I hope that is clear. Please understand that It is far more difficult to 'prove' a negative (prove that something isn't) than it is to 'prove' a positive (prove that something is), so we may appear redundant at times. But since we are debunking the Rapture theory we are constantly engaged in proving that what they say is not true nor is it possible.

The Rapturist's concept that our souls are in the grave with our decomposing bodies is horrible, pagan even. But we remember that Paul started this Scripture by saying that he didn't want us to think like the heathen who have no hope of life after death: "that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope." For they say that when Jesus comes to Rapture the living 'saints' (them) that He also will Rapture the dead 'saints' from the cemeteries of the world. But we know through Scripture that this is impossible because our souls go back immediately to God at the very moment of our death, and only our discarded flesh tabernacles (bodies) rot back to dust in the grave from whence they came. Therefore there is nothing to resurrect from a tomb. You remember what the Angels said to the women when they went to visit the tomb of Jesus after He was buried: "And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?" {Luke 24:5}. Now Jesus' resurrection was a little different than ours is, for Jesus resurrected body and spirit, we discard our bodies and resurrect in spirit:

Eccl 12:5-7
5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high*, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home*, and the mourners go about the streets*:
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed*, or the golden bowl be broken*, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain*, or the wheel broken at the cistern*.

*These are Hebrew euphemisms for death.

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (KJV)

There are no souls in the cemetery, only decomposing spiritless flesh corpses. This should be a comfort to those of us that have lost loved ones. They are with the Heavenly Father that created their very souls!

 

[The Good Path]

I feel the need to really nail this point home. In the below Scripture, Jesus brings a dead girl back to life. See if you can pick-up where her soul/spirit went, for it had to go somewhere for it to "come again"

Luke 8:53-55 (Jesus raises a dead girl)
53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat. (KJV)

Answer: When she died, It (her soul/spirit) went immediately back to God who gave it, Jesus called her back to life and God sent her soul/spirit back, thus she resurrected into her mortal body (she would still go on to die someday). When Jesus resurrected her, He resurrected her into an (her) mortal body.

We, when we die, also will be resurrected, but into immortality, into an (our) immortal body (in Heaven) if we overcome, by and through Christ Jesus. Jesus was teaching here, what Jesus did for this young girl was a 'type' of what He shall do for all true overcoming believers, but that resurrection will be a resurrection into immortal 'bodies' (not susceptible to death). Anyway, no Rapture yet, right!

1Thes 4:13-18 (Cont.)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord#1 shall not prevent them which are asleep#2.

Explanation of above: #1 we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord: = Paul is saying that in the end of times, at the Second Advent, there will be people on the earth who are still alive, they have not yet died, which makes sense. #2 not prevent them which are asleep: = Those that are alive at Christ's return shall not prevent (precede) those who have died in the past in being with the Lord . The reason for that is that the dead are already with the Lord since the very moment of their flesh death. Therefore, those who are 'changed' {1st Cor 15:52} into their spiritual body at the coming of Christ cannot have been with Him before those who are already with Him from the time of their death. NOTE: At the moment of Christ's return, we shall all be in spiritual bodies and the flesh will be discarded {1st Cor 15:52}. But anyway, in the above verse Paul is telling us that to be absent from the flesh, is to be present with the Lord:

2 Cor 5:6-9
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. (KJV)

See also the parable of Lazarus and Rich man to learn where we go when we die {Luke 16:19-31}. And if you study the Apocrypha, you will find something on this in {2nd Esdras 7:78} (but you will need a The Apocrypha (Goodspeed) by Goodspeed because other Apocrypha's cut this chapter short). (As always, use caution when studying non-Canonized scriptural type books).

16 For#1 the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God#2: and#3 the dead in Christ shall rise#4 first#5:

Explanation of above: #1 For: = Because. #2 the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout...: = This is the Second Advent. The "the trump of God" is the seventh trump in which Christ returns {Rev11:15} (1st Cor 15:52 is even more specific in that it states "at the last trump" which is the seventh of seven). #3 and: = The word is "and," not "first" or "then," or "next." This is simply showing a change in the flesh body transforming into a spirit body, but it is not an immediate preceding of the event of the next verse. #5 first: = Shall have risen first, it already happened at the instant of their death, that is why none who are alive and remain could prevent them (precede them). A definition: first: Greek word #4412 proton (pro'-ton); neuter of 4413 as adverb (with or without 3588); firstly (in time, place, order, or importance): KJV-- before, at the beginning, chiefly (at, at the) first (of all). #4 rise: = Ok, now here we have that 'giddy factor' with the Rapturists. Anything they see written about "rise," "clouds," "lift...," makes them think "Rapture." But this use of the word "rise' here is not "levitate." Let's look at the definition of the word and then we will look at a couple verses where the word is used in other Scriptures. Then you judge if this is talking about "rising in a Rapture up into the clouds." A definition: rise: Greek word #450 anistemi (an-is'-tay-mee); from 303 and 2476; to stand up (literal or figurative, transitive or intransitive): KJV-- arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up (-right).

And below are some other Scriptures where the Greek word [anistemi] (translated "rise" in our above Scripture) is used. Bear in mind that it often took more than one English word to translate a Greek word in the Bible:

Mark 9:31
31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise [anistemi] the third day. (KJV)

Luke 8:55
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose [anistemi] straightway: and he commanded to give her meat. (KJV) [You will remember that we just studied this verse a few paragraphs back]

Acts 14:10
10 Said with a loud voice, Stand [anistemi] upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. (KJV)

Ok, no Rapture here, right? The main "Rapture verse" in the whole Bible needs to be addressed as well. But as we shall see it is simply finishing the chronology and the teaching of the preceding verses about all people, living and dead at the time of Christ's Second Advent, going into a spiritual body. The dead did it at the moment of their individual deaths and those who remain alive at the time of the Second Advent will do it at that moment.

 

[The Good Path]

When Jesus returns at the Second Advent, all who are alive will be 'translated' (changed/transfigured) into their spiritual bodies without actually experiencing a flesh death. This was witnessed at the 'Mount of the transfiguration" by John, Peter, and James when Jesus was transfigured into a spiritual body and was met by Moses and Elijah in their spiritual bodies {Mt 17:1-9}. In Heaven we are in spiritual bodies, not sickly corruptible flesh ones.

17 Then#1 we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them#2 in the clouds#3, to meet the Lord in the air#4:

Explanation of above: #1 Then: = When?? - At the seventh trump! {Rev 11:15} - at the Second Advent of Jesus Christ. #2 with them: = Who?? - Those who are already in their spirit bodies - Those who died in the flesh from the beginning of time, who went instantly went back to the Father at the time of their individual deaths. So far so good, now the interpretation of the next two words ('clouds' and 'air') are the 'foundation' [built on sand] of their Rapture doctrines. A whole doctrine built up around two words taken out of context! #3 clouds: = The Rapturist believes this 'clouds' to be like 'rain clouds.' Language lexicons are of little help with this word as it ultimately has two different meanings:

clouds: Greek word #3507 nephele (nef-el'-ay); from #3509; properly, cloudiness, i.e. (concretely) a cloud.

Cloud: #3509 nephos- a cloud, a large dense multitude, a throng; a). used to denote a great shapeless collection of vapor obscuring the heavens as opposed to a particular and definite masses of vapor with some form or shape; b). a cloud in the sky

Above we see that the word can mean either a 'cloud in the sky' or a dense multitude or throng (of people). As I said, the Lexicons are not specific enough here for us to 'hang our hat on,' so to speak. However, there is another resource available to us to secure the proper meaning of the word 'cloud' as it is used here, and that is Scripture itself. We shall let the Bible translate itself. The word "Cloud" #3509 'nephos' whence comes our word 'clouds' is used in only one place in the entire Bible, this will remove any ambiguity with the word usage.

Apostle Paul wrote our Scripture here in 1st Thessalonians, he also wrote the book of Hebrews. It is in the book of Hebrews that Paul used the word "cloud #3509." Paul was a Hebrew from the Tribe of Benjamin, but he also spoke Greek and was a naturalized Roman citizen. However, the Greek he spoke was colloquial Greek (or 'street Greek'). This word 'clouds', as it is used here by Paul is a figure of speech, meaning a large group, used also by Paul in {Heb12:1}, supplied below for your comparison:

Heb 12:1 (Paul's use of the word 'cloud' as a figure of speech)
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us (KJV)

Like I said, Paul was using a colloquialism (figure of speech). Paul no more meant that those would meet Jesus in a 'rain cloud' than he meant that the people above would stage a foot-race on a 'rain-cloud.' The use of the word 'cloud' or 'clouds' in these two Scriptures means a crowd, a great multitude, a vast collection, or dense for multitude of people, as in a "cloud of locusts," or, a "cloud of mosquitoes."

Also, when Jesus Christ returns at his second Advent he will be accompanied by an innumerable host of Angels {Rev 19:11-16}. Below, that innumerable host of Angels is referred to as 'clouds.' Jesus isn't coming on or in water clouds, He is coming with clouds of Angels, so many that they will cloud the sky and can not be counted for their multitude:

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (KJV)

Ok, now our last word in this Scripture: #4 air: = I don't even have to tell you how the Rapturist interprets this word. But the word doesn't mean 'air' like in the sky (for you even have 'air' in your basement). But rather it is the spirit of life air, the pneuma, as in a pneumatic tire (whence we get the word pneumatic). It is the animation of the body, the life, the spirit. In the Hebrew of the Old Testament this word finds it's equivalent in 'neshamah,' which is what God blew into Adam's nostrils and he became a living being. The word means "the breath of life." Below we shall provide definitions in both Greek and Hebrew of this "breath of life" or "spirit":

Air: Greek word #109 aer (ah-ayr'); from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient)

This is what God did into Adams nostrils, and through Christ we shall have the "breath of eternal life." The Hebrew counterpart for this word is:

breath of (life): Hebrew word #5397 neshamah (nesh-aw-maw'); from 5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal: KJV-- blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit. Neshamah - The breath, the spirit; a) the breath (of God) b) the breath (of man) c) every breathing thing d) the spirit (of man).

 

[The Good Path]

No scripture contradicts pre-trib rapture teaching

The bible says that Christ comes as a thief......
....So though I may have an elaborate date prediction going on, yet I must say it is my best bet. Christ Jesus told me to be ready, for as such an hour as I think not the Son of Man cometh, which scripture also leads me to believe that it is pre-trib. It could happen today! And if I am mistaken about today it may come tomorrow! If I am ready for it I have nothing to loose and have walked obedient to scripture.

Actually, any verses used for "proof" of a secret rapture completely fall apart when rightly divided and taken back to the original languages...

Matthew 24:37-39, “But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

Notice who was taken…it wasn’t Noah. Noah was prepared, and was ready for the flood, while the others were caught up in the world, and did not heed the warning. In the last days there will be another flood coming, but this time it will be a flood of lies from the false preachers who are teaching people that they don’t need to understand and know God’s word about the end time because they are going to fly out of here in the rapture. The rapture doctrine is a false doctrine created by man, and is one of Satan’s greatest deceptions. Luke 17 explains it even more.

Luke 17: 34-37, ” I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

You need to know that the proper translation of eagles here is actually vultures just like in Matthew 24:28. What do vultures do? They are scavengers and they prey on dead flesh. In this case it will be speaking of flesh that is spiritually dead. Satan and his vultures, or false teachers who have been misleading people with this rapture doctrine prey on people who are spiritually dead. Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 clearly tell you who will be coming first, and what the signs are. Satan comes first, and will deceive many that he is the true Christ. That is why it says Christ is coming like a thief in the night several times. No one will be watching because they will think Christ is already here. It is Christ who spells this out in these chapters exactly what to be watching for when He comes. It won’t be a secret, all will know when Christ truly appears, and He calls His children to be watchmen. He gave us these signs so we know what to look for. There would be no need for these signs if He just planned to secretly rapture us out of here.

Matthew 24:45-46, “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.”

So the blessed servant is the one who STAYED in the field, the one who was faithful and continued working. Who preached the MEAT of God’s word, not the milk. We are to be doing His work by spreading the TRUE gospel, not looking for a way out. God didn’t rapture Noah out, or Moses, but provided them with a way to get through the tribulations of their time, as He will do for us as well.

 

[Heb 13:8]

No scripture contradicts pre-trib rapture teaching

Actually, pre-trib is correct. Why do you think Israel is giving birth to the church in September.

Rev 12:1-5 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman (Israel) clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She (Israel) was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon (Satan) with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon (Satan) stood in front of the woman (Israel) who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child (teknon the church) the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son (huios Jesus Christ himself), a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child (teknon the church) was snatched up (harpazo) to God and to his throne.

The bible says that Christ comes as a thief and no man knows the day and the hour.

Actually, the bible says Christ comes as a thief to nonbelievers, those who are not in Christ. The day and hour is an idiom for the Feast of Trumpets. Why would Jesus tell us to wake up if that day comes like a thief to believers. What do you think the sign in Rev 12:1-5 is for on 9/23/17?

Rev 3:3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half. Daniel 12:7

I guess u missed the part where the restrainer (the daily sacrifice) being taken out of the way is the Holy Spirit inside believers, which kicks off the 1290 days..

Dan 12:11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice (believers in Christ) is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

Rom 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God--this is your true and proper worship.

Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast.

Actually, we can know. Otherwise we would be in darkness 1 Thess 5:4. I also find it interesting that "september twenty one" = 2017 in Gematria.. september twenty one Gematria Value - English Gematria Calculator

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24

Notice that Matt 24:38-39 is talking about nonbelievers and 1 Thess 5:4-11 is talking about believers.

It could happen today! And if I am mistaken about today it may come tomorrow!

That's actually not true. If you go to Leviticus 23 there are seven feasts of the Lord. The word "festival" in Hebrew is translated "moed" which means: appointed time, place, or meeting. The first four feasts have already been fulfilled by Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago, and the last three are still future.

Jesus fulfilled the first four feasts to the day literally, and the next feast on God's calendar is the Feast of Trumpets which is on 9/23/17 the same day the great sign appears in heaven. Each festival (an appointed time in history) represents an event Jesus fulfilled or will fulfill in the near future. The Feast of Trumpets represents the rapture of the church at the end of the church age, the age of Grace.

1. The Passover (God leads the Jews out of Egypt and slavery)
2. Unleavened Bread (The Death and Burial of Jesus Christ)
3. First Fruits (Resurrection of Jesus Christ)
4. Feast of Weeks/Pentecost (The beginning of the church age, Holy Spirit indwells believers)
5. Feast of Trumpets (The rapture of the church)
6. Day of Atonement (Jesus lands on the Mount of Olives and atones for the sins of Israel at the end of the 7 year tribulation)
7. Feast of Tabernacles (The 1,000 year reign with Christ)

Joel 2:1 Blow the trumpet in Zion; sound the alarm on my holy hill. Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the LORD is coming. It is close at hand—

Zeph 1:14-16 The great day of the LORD is near— near and coming quickly. The cry on the day of the LORD is bitter; the Mighty Warrior shouts his battle cry. 15 That day will be a day of wrath— a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness— 16 a day of trumpet and battle cry against the fortified cities and against the corner towers.

1 Cor 15:50-54 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

1 Thess 4:13-17 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

What is really sad is when people build elaborate end time predictions, and then hold those who do not agree with them as heretics.

What is really sad is that Christians do not know what an idiom is.

We do our best with what we have learned, but even after that there is no way of nailing exact dates, which the Father has put in his own power. So it pays to be ready on a daily basis, just in case, which they probably are, our date predictions are in error.

Actually, we can nail exact dates, because God gave us 1290, 1260, 1335 days.. HEAVENLY SIGN 2017

Thinking that the rapture can happen on any day is not biblical.

 

[Heb 13:8]

You don't want that, I doubt you and the rest of the people on the planet are ready for the relationship on the other side.

Who's not ready for love?

None of those prophesies say anything about going to heaven. That whole idea is made up from inference and wishful thinking.

1 Thess 4:13-17 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Rev 12:1-5 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman (Israel) clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She (Israel) was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon (Satan) with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon (Satan) stood in front of the woman (Israel) who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child (teknon the church) the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son (huios Jesus Christ himself), a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child (teknon the church) was snatched up (harpazo) to God and to his throne.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

None of those prophesies say anything about going to heaven. That whole idea is made up from inference and wishful thinking.

You had overlooked post # 4's bottom reference of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 where the living gets transformed and taken above to meet Christ in teh air to be forever with the Lord.

 

[Heb 13:8]

you might come to see that no one knows the day or hour is another way of saying that it will happen for everyone at different times in their walk.

No, it's another way of saying that it's an idiom for the Feast of Trumpets. All born again Christians are taken up in the rapture at the same time.

The rapture doctrine is a pretty new addition to Christianity, although Ezekiel previously condemned it in his discourse on "pillows" and "soft landings," which were also forwarded by "women" then, just like in the late 19th century. peace.

No, it's actually not. The rapture is in the Word of God 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5.

I must worry though, that without imminent rapture teaching, that people are really going loose their purity in the time frame and take on the properties of demonic spirits if they are not careful.

Imminent rapture teaching is false. Rapture will land on His appointed time.

Below, we shall do what the Rapture teachers cannot possibly be doing, we will look at this verse in the context that the Holy Spirit put it in. We will back-up and pick it up a couple of verses before this one and to set the subject and the object of the verse clearly in our minds, so as to be assured that we are interpreting it in the proper context.

1Thes 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant#1, brethren, concerning them which are asleep#2, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope#3.

The rapture is in the Word of God 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5. I'd like to see you debunk Rev 12:5 harpazo.

Actually, any verses used for "proof" of a secret rapture completely fall apart when rightly divided and taken back to the original languages...

I also see that you completely ignored Rev 12:5 harpazo. Convenient, no?

 

[Eastgate]

No, it's actually not. The rapture is in the Word of God 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5.

The rapture is in the Word of God 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5. I'd like to see you debunk Rev 12:5 harpazo.

I also see that you completely ignored Rev 12:5 harpazo. Convenient, no?

The word "harpazo" in Rev 12:5 is not synonymous with nor can it be used to substantiate YOUR rapture doctrine. The word does not appear in the bible in the context of your security blanket known as "the rapture" where christians will be whisked away before the antichrist arrives. The child in Rev 12:5 is not the church. Read it again.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all. not saying any or wrong or right, but consider this. God/the Lord Jesus will remove his church for the earth during his wrath. for the scriptures that have been stated prove this out. listen,
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
and this is the key verse,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be".
no date and time is known, and I'm not about dates, but about the substance of the "EVENT". the Lord Jesus said, "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away".

so the same is with the son of man. #1. who was taken away in the flood?... answer the wicked. #2. who was lifted (harpazo) above the earth? answer..... the believers (Noah and his family). just from these scriptures alone there will be no pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, or post tribulation rapture. nor a pre-wrath rapture either, as some now believe. but the Lord Jesus cannot lie, and he clearly states, "But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be". and this coming is during his wrath. 39 "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be". the flood is the investment of God's wrath, and two important happen. the wicked was punish, and the righteous saved. the instrument of God that destroyed is the same instrument that saved, (the flood).

someone said, "the dead will be Raptured (along with the living 'saints' during the Rapture)." let's see what the Lord Jesus says about this, and we know that the Lord Jesus cannot lie. Luke 17:34 "I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left". in bed is symbolic for the dead, when one sleep it's in bed, and sleep represent death. in death one is taken, just as in the day of Noah.

one spoke of the dead with God. question, where is God? answer, Jeremiah 23:23 & 24 "Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD" (KJV).

next the Christ and God question. is not the Christ God manifested in Flesh. meaning another of himself shared in flesh as Phil 2:6 points out.

so correctly, the spirit returns to God who gave it, and all soul are his Ezek 18:4 (KJV), but the underlining question, "where is God". the answer, one said "WITH", correct, scripture, John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever". how long? answer "FOREVER". and who is this comforter? answer, John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you". but how is he "WITH US", answer, John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him". but is not the son in heaven as we speak? for he must descend from heaven. yes, for the Son is the share of the Spirit that sits, supportive scriptures, Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his". note the capitalization of the "S" in Spirit, indicating God, for God is a Spirit, but in Romans 8:9 there is the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ, meaning the SAME PERSON. So Christ is God, the same person. which means God is a diversity of himself in flesh and bone. so the scriptures in 1 Thessalonians are true for the LIVING as well as the DEAD. supportive scripture, Romans 14:9 "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living".

 

[Heb 13:8]

The word "harpazo" in Rev 12:5 is not synonymous with nor can it be used to substantiate YOUR rapture doctrine. The word does not appear in the bible in the context of your security blanket known as "the rapture" where christians will be whisked away before the antichrist arrives.

That's actually incorrect. We are snatched away into the air and to God's throne.

1 Thess 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Rev 12:5 She gave birth to a son (huios Jesus Christ himself), a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child (teknon the church) was snatched up (harpazo) to God and to his throne.

The child in Rev 12:5 is not the church. Read it again.

I do see the church in Rev 12:4-5. John uses the word "huios" and "teknon" to connect the head with the body through rapture. Throughout scripture, "huios" is always used singularly, and "teknon" is always used to describe a group of people (the body of Christ). The word "harpazo" is used for the church only. If the church wasn't raptured, the red dragon would devour them. Read it again..

Rev 12:1-5 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman (Israel) clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She (Israel) was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon (Satan) with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon (Satan) stood in front of the woman (Israel) who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child (teknon the church) the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son (huios Jesus Christ himself), a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child (teknon the church) was snatched up (harpazo) to God and to his throne.

 

[Eastgate]

Yeah, lets just plug-in whoever we want as "the child" in those verses. First, you say its Christ, then, in order to back your security blanket(rapture), you plug-in "the church". Nothing new here. I see it all the time.
The Good Path explained in an earlier post the meaning of "clouds" and "air" in 1 Thess. Study. You'll get it, God willing.

 

[Heb 13:8]

God/the Lord Jesus will remove his church for the earth during his wrath.

No, He removes the church before wrath. The 70th week is 7 years of darkness, and the children of God are of the light and of the day. God would be in contradiction..

Zep 1:15 That day will be a day of wrath— a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness—

1 Thess 5:5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.

The restrainer (the daily sacrifice) being taken out of the way is the Holy Spirit inside believers. The rapture kicks off the 1290 days.. HEAVENLY SIGN 2017

Dan 12:11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice (believers in Christ) is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

Rom 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God--this is your true and proper worship.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
and this is the key verse,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be".

I noticed you skipped verse 38. Notice Matt 24:38-39 are referring to nonbelievers, and 1 Thess 5:4-11 are referring to believers. This is why the day and hour is an idiom. Jesus comes like a thief to nonbelievers.

no date and time is known, and I'm not about dates, but about the substance of the "EVENT". the Lord Jesus said, "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away".

Why not, God is. He even gave us 1260, 1290 and 1335 days. Matt 24:38-39 is referring to nonbelievers.

so the same is with the son of man. #1. who was taken away in the flood?... answer the wicked. #2. who was lifted (harpazo) above the earth? answer..... the believers (Noah and his family).

No, that's incorrect. The word used for Jesus ascension to heaven is not harpazo. Harpazo is used for the church only.

just from these scriptures alone there will be no pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, or post tribulation rapture. nor a pre-wrath rapture either, as some now believe.

Scripture does actually point to a pre-trib rapture, 1 Thess 4:17 and Rev 12:1-5. Why do you think Israel is giving birth to the church in September. It's time to wake up! Rev 3:3.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Yeah, lets just plug-in whoever we want as "the child" in those verses. First, you say its Christ, then, in order to back your security blanket(rapture), you plug-in "the church". Nothing new here. I see it all the time.
The Good Path explained in an earlier post the meaning of "clouds" and "air" in 1 Thess. Study. You'll get it, God willing.

Hi Eastgate,

"huios" and "teknon" are Greek words connecting the head with the body. Jesus Christ is the head of the church, and born again believers are the body Col 1:18. It's all explained here.. 9/23/17, Rev 12:5, X etc..

(3.) The word for rapture in Greek is translated "harpazo", and this word is found or is a part of the great sign of Rev 12:1-5 on 9/23/17. The word "harpazo" is in Rev 12:5 and also 1 Thess 4:17, both rapture verses. Now, this is where it gets interesting. Scripture uses a conception, gestation period, labor pains and birthing metaphor of a child being birthed in Rev 12:1-5. The closer the birth becomes the more intense the birth pains will be.

That's why many eschatologists believe that not only will the rapture occur but also..

Gen 3:15-16, Isa 13:6-8, Isa 17:1, Isa 26:17-21, Jer 30:6-7, Jer 49:24, Daniel's 70th week in Dan 9:27 (Jacob's trouble), Micah 4:9-10, Micah 5:2-3, Psalm 83 war, Ezek chapters 38-39 war and 1 Thess 5:1-3 will all be fulfilled this year and in the following years.

In Rev 12:1-5 the woman is Israel, the enormous red dragon is the antichrist system, and the child is the body of Christ (the church), three corporal entities. If you go to Rev 12:3 it says, "another sign appeared in heaven". This is what is called "Planet X or Nibiru", which Google and NASA are covering up, even though Planet X can be shown on infrared.

(4.) If you study the birth of the church you will see Virgo giving birth to Jupiter in September of 2017. Jupiter is the king planet which represents Christ and also the body (the church) that is in Christ. When you become saved the Holy Spirit indwells you, and you become one with the body of Christ. God is using a birthing metaphor to describe the conception of the church 2,000 years ago, and He is also using a birthing metaphor in the end times by using the sun, moon, stars and planets. The conception of the church began at Pentecost 2,000 years ago and has been in gestation for 2,000 years up until now. Jesus Christ is the head of the church, and born again Christians are the body. The head came out of the womb when Jesus was resurrected and ascended to heaven 2,000 years ago.

When you study a natural birth of a baby being born the head comes out first, then the body. The body of Jesus Christ which is the church (Jupiter) entered Virgo's womb in November of 2016 and is in a gestation period right now. The church will be birthed in September of 2017 which will be 42 weeks in the womb (a normal gestation period for a natural birth). I would also like to point out that Isa 66:7 is referring to when Israel in one day became a nation on 5/15/48 (on Pentecost to be precise), but it could also be alluding to rapture and Daniel's 70th week of tribulation; the amazing reversal as some eschatologists put it. Birth then labor pains, rapture then tribulation. It's good to keep this in mind when referring back to 9/23/17.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to Heb 13:8, first, thanks for the response. second, I will answer you point by point.
#1. you stated, “Zep 1:15 That day will be a day of wrath— a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness”.

This is not the day of judgment, but the day of God's vengeance upon sin, and an end to the Law of Sacrifice, which ushered in the saving Grace of God. just read Joel 2:31 "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come”. see that Heb 13:8 the GREAT and TERRIBLE “DAY” of the Lord, when did it come? answer the very next verse, listen, 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call”. and what came to pass? the Grace of God which came on Pentecost, after the JUDGMENT of the WORLD SIN. how do I know this? Just READ acts 2:14-21, for the apostle Peter quotes Joel as to what was happening right then was after the GREAT and TERRIBLE "DAY" of the LORD. the apostle Peter showing what the prophet Joel predicted would happen, and this was AFTER the GREAT and TERRIBLE “DAY” of the Lord, just read acts 2:14-21 and see for yourself. so your response is INCORRECT on Zep 1:15 that you used to support your pre trib rapture theory. it’s in trouble already.


#2. NO DATE: Why not, God is. He even gave us 1260, 1290 and 1335 days. Matt 24:38-39 is referring to nonbelievers.
ERROR on your part.
the Lord Jesus set no dates, neither do I.

#3. you said, “No, that's incorrect. The word used for Jesus ascension to heaven is not harpazo. Harpazo is used for the church only.

you misread my point. did I not say believers was lifted up (Noah and his family, who was believers). the ark was lifted/harpazo above the earth, by the waters that destroyed the wicked, (non-believers). you might want to slow down and really read my responses before you answer. and lastly,

#4. you said, “Scripture does actually point to a pre-trib rapture, 1 Thess 4:17 and Rev 12:1-5. Why do you think Israel is giving birth to the church in September. It's time to wake up! Rev 3:3”.

A.Revelation 12:1-5 have nothing to do with any rapture, or future birth. "caught up" here means "come in POWER, of the Spirit". which he did. examine this word, G726 ἁρπάζω harpazo (har-pad'-zo). the ( KJV) can translate the word as, “take (by force)”. the derivative of this word is G138 αἱρέομαι haireomai (hai-reh'-om-ai) meaning to take for oneself, i.e. to prefer. this is clearly seen, or demonstrated in it’s use, Matthew 11:12 "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force". here "FORCE" is the the Greek word G726 ἁρπάζω harpazo (har-pad'-zo). Just read Gill commentery on Mattews 11:12 and get the proper understanding of how this word is used, and work. the force or power of heaven is the Spirit, which our Lord came with.

B. I hope you are not caught up in this false doctrine by some taking Revelation Chapter 12 out of context, which you said, “Israel is giving birth to the church in September?” that’s an ERROR on many who profess this.

C. Israel did not give birth to the church, only a small remnant of Judah gave birth to the church that the Lord Jesus Built. Israel was divorce by God, Just read Jeremiah 3:8 and get it's understanding. but the small remnant (the church in the wilderness) of Judah was only put away, not divorce by God, see (Isaiah 50:1).

D. as stated above, Revelation 12:1-5 have nothing to do with any rapture, but it is the vision that was given to John about the Lord’s birth, Jesus the Christ. if one would keep one hand on Revelation 12, and the other on Matthews chapter 2, it’s the exact same event.

so again there is no pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, nor any pre-wrath rapture.