NO MORE WORKS

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Doug

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Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Some say that verse 6 above is saying that at one time, God saved people unto eternal life by their works, but now it is by grace. This is because the verse reads it is " no more of works", therefore, it used to be. I do not hold to this.

Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

In the verses above, the meaning of "no more of works" can be found. Paul is saying that Israel sought righteousness, not by faith, but by the works of the law. Romans 11:6 is saying, the election of grace is God's determination to save those that believe by faith; faith would be based on the propitiation of Jesus. Israel stumbled at the stumblingstone of Christ. The remnant attained righteousness by faith. This righteousness is by grace, not by works. The remnant did not attain righteousness by the works of the law.

Romans 11:6 is not easy to understand. The verse is saying the election is of grace; if it's grace then it can't be by works; if it is by works then it can't be by grace; but if it's works then it can't be by grace; if it is by grace then it can't be by works.

Paul stated that Israel is not children of God by virtue of being of the seed of Abraham; Israel is counted as being the children of God thru the promise God gave through Isaac.

[Romans 9:11-13 KJV] 11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Rebecca had two sons by Isaac, Jacob and Esau; God elected to chose Jacob to make the covenant.

When verse 13 above says "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" it is not saying God hated Esau as a person, but he hated the nation that came through Esau, Edom; from Jacob came Israel (Genesis 35:10).

Election is God choosing how, and through whom, he will fulfill His purposes. God did not chose Jacob because he did good, and Esau did evil. The election of grace is not dependent on doing good or evil. The election is of grace. The election is not of works.

The remnant attains righteousness by the election of grace. If the election is by grace, then it is no more of works. Grace has been chosen by God for righteousness. Works have been eliminated as a means of attaining righteousness.
 

quietthinker

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The gears in a vehicle are not the driver. It is the engine that drives. The engine can run but if the gears are not selected nothing moves.
Expecting to move the vehicle solely by selecting gears is a fool's expectation.
 

Behold

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Election is God choosing

When, does God cause this, Reader? ?

= """Conformed into the image of Christ'"""?

When does God cause this to START........and for Whom?

A.) When you trust in Christ, and God causes your spirit to be born again INTO His...by the Holy Spirit = then you are now "IN Christ".

= > And once you are '""IN Christ".. you are now become >{PRE-Destined< } to receive quite a few things.......from God that were pre-ordained to happen, to anyone who is found "IN CHRIST"..

Here is one......."conformed into the image of Christ'.......is one of the situations that God will start and complete.. and it starts ONCE you are "IN CHRIST". ..( Born again), and it will be finalized when you get your new body.
 
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Soyeong

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Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Some say that verse 6 above is saying that at one time, God saved people unto eternal life by their works, but now it is by grace. This is because the verse reads it is " no more of works", therefore, it used to be. I do not hold to this.

Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

In the verses above, the meaning of "no more of works" can be found. Paul is saying that Israel sought righteousness, not by faith, but by the works of the law. Romans 11:6 is saying, the election of grace is God's determination to save those that believe by faith; faith would be based on the propitiation of Jesus. Israel stumbled at the stumblingstone of Christ. The remnant attained righteousness by faith. This righteousness is by grace, not by works. The remnant did not attain righteousness by the works of the law.

Romans 11:6 is not easy to understand. The verse is saying the election is of grace; if it's grace then it can't be by works; if it is by works then it can't be by grace; but if it's works then it can't be by grace; if it is by grace then it can't be by works.

Paul stated that Israel is not children of God by virtue of being of the seed of Abraham; Israel is counted as being the children of God thru the promise God gave through Isaac.

[Romans 9:11-13 KJV] 11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Rebecca had two sons by Isaac, Jacob and Esau; God elected to chose Jacob to make the covenant.

When verse 13 above says "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" it is not saying God hated Esau as a person, but he hated the nation that came through Esau, Edom; from Jacob came Israel (Genesis 35:10).

Election is God choosing how, and through whom, he will fulfill His purposes. God did not chose Jacob because he did good, and Esau did evil. The election of grace is not dependent on doing good or evil. The election is of grace. The election is not of works.

The remnant attains righteousness by the election of grace. If the election is by grace, then it is no more of works. Grace has been chosen by God for righteousness. Works have been eliminated as a means of attaining righteousness.
Grace is a gift and gift can't be earned, so grace is incompatible with works insofar as those works are done to earn a wage, however, works can be done for other reasons that are compatible with grace. For example, a gift can be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that works contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to drive it.

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life. In Romans 3:21-22, the one and only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe.
 

Doug

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Grace is a gift and gift can't be earned, so grace is incompatible with works insofar as those works are done to earn a wage, however, works can be done for other reasons that are compatible with grace.
Yes..........[Rom 5:15 KJV] 15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

[Eph 2:10 KJV] 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

good works for reward........[1Co 3:14 KJV] 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

and to please him............[1Th 4:1 KJV] 1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort [you] by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, [so] ye would abound more and more.
 

David Lamb

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When, does God cause this, Reader? ?

= """Conformed into the image of Christ'"""?

When does God cause this to START........and for Whom?

A.) When you trust in Christ, and God causes your spirit to be born again INTO His...by the Holy Spirit = then you are now "IN Christ".

= > And once you are '""IN Christ".. you are now become >{PRE-Destined< } to receive quite a few things.......from God that were pre-ordained to happen, to anyone who is found "IN CHRIST"..

Here is one......."conformed into the image of Christ'.......is one of the situations that God will start and complete.. and it starts ONCE you are "IN CHRIST". ..( Born again), and it will be finalized when you get your new body.
God's election/choosing happened "before the foundation of the world":

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,” (Eph 1:3-4 NKJV)

But being born again, being saved, being "in Christ" - these are things that happen when by God's grace a sinner believes on the Lord Jesus Christ.
 

Soyeong

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Yes..........[Rom 5:15 KJV] 15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

[Eph 2:10 KJV] 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

good works for reward........[1Co 3:14 KJV] 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

and to please him............[1Th 4:1 KJV] 1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort [you] by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, [so] ye would abound more and more.
In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are made new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denied that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, being graciously made to be a doer of good works is nevertheless a central part of God gift of salvation.
 
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Behold

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chose us in Him before the foundation of the world,

Your verse is falsely twisted by Hyper Calvinists, into the idea that God chose you be a Christian, before you were born, and you have no choice in it. (no Free Will).
So, that of course is a Lie, ( one of many) that you find within dumb hyper calvinism theology.

The fact is, the verse's context is.. that God FORE- KNEW.........not predestined but FORE-KNEW, who is going to become "IN CHRIST".. when they believed...(born again)....... and from that position of being "in Christ".... Paul is explaining his Theology.
 

Doug

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Your verse is falsely twisted by Hyper Calvinists, into the idea that God chose you be a Christian, before you were born, and you have no choice in it. (no Free Will).
So, that of course is a Lie, ( one of many) that you find within dumb hyper calvinism theology.

The fact is, the verse's context is.. that God FORE- KNEW.........not predestined but FORE-KNEW, who is going to become "IN CHRIST".. when they believed...(born again)....... and from that position of being "in Christ".... Paul is explaining his Theology.
[Eph 1:4-5 KJV] 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

We were not chosen individually but rather this speaks of God choosing how he would save and whom he would save in general according to his purpose.......he would save those who believed in Christ and predestined/ predetermined they would be adopted children......it is the expression of his will
 

Behold

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We were not chosen individually but rather this speaks of God choosing how he would save and whom he would save in general according to his purpose.......he would save those who believed in Christ and predestined/ predetermined they would be adopted children......it is the expression of his will

Notice the phrase. "Chosen IN HIM""

"IN "HIM"

"IN". "HIM">

So, CHRIST is the "HIM">. .and those who are "IN" Him... are Christians who are "IN Christ".....or "IN HIM">.

Therefore, becoming 'In HIM">......which is talking about CHRISTians being Born Again.......... is something that God KNEW , before "the foundation of the world".

See, God "FORE-KNEW" who is going to Trust in Christ , before the world was formed......just as God "Foreknew" that Elon Musk was going to name his car......TESLA.

God's fore-knowledge, always KNOWS everything that is going to happen, next... before it happens.......and all this even before the world was formed.
 
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Bob

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Thank you for the post and discussion.

Recall some of what Jesus told us:

Matthew 22:37 : Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’​

Does “Love you neighbor as yourself” merely involve being kind, pleasant, considerate?​

Jesus also told us (Matthew 25:34-35) to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, shelter the stranger, clothe the naked, tend the sick, and visit the imprisoned. These are not optional works, because—​

He also said, 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ “​

Peace.​

 
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amigo de christo

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When, does God cause this, Reader? ?

= """Conformed into the image of Christ'"""?

When does God cause this to START........and for Whom?

A.) When you trust in Christ, and God causes your spirit to be born again INTO His...by the Holy Spirit = then you are now "IN Christ".

= > And once you are '""IN Christ".. you are now become >{PRE-Destined< } to receive quite a few things.......from God that were pre-ordained to happen, to anyone who is found "IN CHRIST"..

Here is one......."conformed into the image of Christ'.......is one of the situations that God will start and complete.. and it starts ONCE you are "IN CHRIST". ..( Born again), and it will be finalized when you get your new body.
Calvin would not be pleased . but my advice is let no man heed that man .
What has indeed been pre ordained and pre determined BY GOD
is JESUS WOULD be the savoir and that all who do beleive in HIM
would be ordained unto eternal life , partakers of HIS promises .
Now calvin will not like this . but as i said i dont heed that man .
AND may i highly suggest that none HEED the R double C either . IN fact
we bette all beware because most all of christendom is now under the sway of a false love that is of the world .
 
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amigo de christo

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Thank you for the post and discussion.

Recall some of what Jesus told us:

Matthew 22:37 : Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’​

Does “Love you neighbor as yourself” merely involve being kind, pleasant, considerate?​

Jesus also told us (Matthew 25:34-35) to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, shelter the stranger, clothe the naked, tend the sick, and visit the imprisoned. These are not optional works, because—​

He also said, 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ “​

Peace.​

He sure did say that . he also said a whole lotta other things too .
Better we BELIEVE ALL THINGS he said . heres one
WOE UNTO THEE for it will be worse for you on the day of JUDGMENT than ever it was for sodom .
IF ONE BELIEVES NOT JESUS is the CHRIST , hello all other false religons , THATS A REAL NASTY END .
in other words INTEFIATH finding commmon ground
the idea that it dont really matter if one beleives IN JESUS THE CHRIST
IS ONE HECK OF A DAMNABLE LIE . as well as those who lip HIS NAME and yet DO NOT the THINGS HE SAID .
I suggest bible time again for us all to learn and to learn well
what MOST men no longer rightly divide or even teach , THE TRUTH .
 

Doug

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Thank you for the post and discussion.

Recall some of what Jesus told us:

Matthew 22:37 : Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’​

Does “Love you neighbor as yourself” merely involve being kind, pleasant, considerate?​

Jesus also told us (Matthew 25:34-35) to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, shelter the stranger, clothe the naked, tend the sick, and visit the imprisoned. These are not optional works, because—​

He also said, 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ “​

Peace.​

Thank you
 

Gottservant

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Sorry could you please expound........I dont understand
There is salvation, which is a work that God does and there is "Grace" by which you receive that salvation.

However, it is not a given that you will enjoy the "Grace", as people who insist 'faith is not by works' imply you will - they say "faith by grace is important" and put Grace in subjection to faith.

The reality is, you are not going to enjoy the grace unless you "love the work" that goes with it; that is more than repeating what God did (when He saved you).

If you get to Heaven and you don't love the work that goes with the Grace that saved you, you won't enjoy the Grace - you will be there, but you won't be participating. I'm not saying you will never participate, just that God's Grace to you will have to increase in some measure - before you start to enjoy it.
 

Lambano

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Make no mistake about it. Works matter to Paul because they show the state of who and what you are.

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor malakoi, nor arsenkoitoi, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)​

12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. 14 But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. 15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful. (Colossians 3:12-15)​
The works of Torah that don't matter to Paul are those "boundary-markers" that separate Jew from Gentile: Circumcision, keeping kosher, observing shabbat and other holy days.
 
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Doug

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There is salvation, which is a work that God does and there is "Grace" by which you receive that salvation.

However, it is not a given that you will enjoy the "Grace", as people who insist 'faith is not by works' imply you will - they say "faith by grace is important" and put Grace in subjection to faith.

The reality is, you are not going to enjoy the grace unless you "love the work" that goes with it; that is more than repeating what God did (when He saved you).

If you get to Heaven and you don't love the work that goes with the Grace that saved you, you won't enjoy the Grace - you will be there, but you won't be participating. I'm not saying you will never participate, just that God's Grace to you will have to increase in some measure - before you start to enjoy it.
Thanks