NO MORE WORKS ***

[Dave L]

"enable them to through the 'new birth'". What do you mean by this? What is this new birth, and how does one attain it?
In peace

If you believe in Christ you have it. Without it you would not believe in Christ in any true sense. But perhaps an idol bearing his name.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Another thought. If God allows people to believe and denies others to believe, then doesn't that mean that God chooses people to go to hell? This seems a little strange to me.

I’ve struggled with your question also. Romans 9:19-23 helped. “Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?”

“Who has resisted God’s will?” If no one then ...”why does God yet find fault?”

“Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it , Why hast thou made me thus? [21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Consider the Son and what God asks of those vessels that obtain mercy: forgive as you have been forgiven. Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

“Prepared unto glory” ...

 

[LoveBeacon]

If you believe in Christ you have it. Without it you would not believe in Christ in any true sense. But perhaps an idol bearing his name.

I think I asked this question(s), but I don't think I got an answer for it (forgive me if you already did!): What makes someone a believer Christ? How does God know who is a believer in Christ and who isn't? Is there anyway to know?

In peace

 

[Dave L]

I think I asked this question(s), but I don't think I got an answer for it (forgive me if you already did!): What makes someone a believer Christ? How does God know who is a believer in Christ and who isn't? Is there anyway to know?

In peace

Only God can make someone a believer in Christ through the new birth. God dwells in each believer bearing witness with our spirit that we are his children. God knows all who belong to him.

 

[amadeus]

"enable them to through the 'new birth'". What do you mean by this? What is this new birth, and how does one attain it?
In peace

First, why we need to attain it:

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3

Here is how it is explained:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him." I John 5:1

We were all born to our natural mother but we were all born dead because our parents were dead, were they not?

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen 2:17

"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." Gen 3:6

So then to God they were dead even though they continued to walk around and talk and also had children and acted among themselves as if they were alive. Would not the children of dead people also be dead? That's you and me. For this reason God sent His Son so that we could be born again this time to the ral Life that Jesus brought for us...

So where do we go from being born again? How about overcoming the world as Jesus did?

"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith" I John 5:4

Jesus did this, [overcame the world] and He paid the price to make it possible that we also may overcome the world:

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33

The world that Jesus overcame was NOT planet Earth as we should be able to see by looking around us. The world he overcame was the one within his own flesh which tempted him to sin.

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

He overcame all of those attractions which when followed lead a person to sin. He made it possible for you and I to also overcome the world, our own little world, within each of us, of the "lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes & the pride of life". One of rewards for us doing that is shown here:

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

When we are able to and do eat of the "tree of Life", the one that Adam and Eve skipped in Eden then we'll understand what Jesus meant here:

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

 

[Doug]

W


What must someone do to receive this grace? or is it free to everyone?

In peace

The election of grace spoken of in Romans 11 was in the context of Israel being cast away.
The remnant was believing Israel, the Israel of God, who received Christ by faith.
We don't have to do anything to receive grace.
We only have to have faith, just like the remnant
We have to place trust and faith in what Christ did to give us everything we need for our salvation unto eternal life.
We only have to believe the gospel; Christ died for our sins, He fully paid the debt and penalty of our sin by the sacrifice of himself. He was buried and rose again for our justification.
1 Corinthians 15:3-4

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Another thought. If God allows people to believe and denies others to believe, then doesn't that mean that God chooses people to go to hell? This seems a little strange to me.

Don't believe every wind of doctrine out there, or even on this thread. Receiving God's grace is receiving God's Holy Spirit. You must be born again of the Spirit. Acts 2:38 All you need to do is admit you are a sinner and there are some things you have no control over that you know are wrong. Truly repent of all sin and truly want Jesus to be the Lord and Master over every part of you and Jesus will baptize you with His Holy Spirit. He will give you a new nature born of the Spirit, and you will experience a complete change in your thought life and desires and have power over sin. You will love what God loves, and hate what God hates. When you are baptized of the Spirit you will experience a radical change. Then get baptized in water which buries the old man, out of a good conscience. 1 Peter 3:21

 

[farouk]

Don't believe every wind of doctrine out there, or even on this thread. Receiving God's grace is receiving God's Holy Spirit. You must be born again of the Spirit. Acts 2:38 All you need to do is admit you are a sinner and there are some things you have no control over that you know are wrong. Truly repent of all sin and truly want Jesus to be the Lord and Master over every part of you and Jesus will baptize you with His Holy Spirit. He will give you a new nature born of the Spirit, and you will experience a complete change in your thought life and desires and have power over sin. You will love what God loves, and hate what God hates. When you are baptized of the Spirit you will experience a radical change. Then get baptized in water which buries the old man, out of a good conscience. 1 Peter 3:21

To avoid being carried by every wind of doctrine, it's really good to seek to be well grounded in the Word, prayerfully...

Baptism is a symbol of what has already taken place spiritually.

 

[Enoch111]

Grace has been chosen by God for righteousness. Works have been eliminated as a means of attaining righteousness.

We need to be careful as to how we make these statements. While the works of the Law cannot justify a sinner (since all are justified by grace THROUGH FAITH), God has NOT eliminated good works as an expression or outworking of righteousness. Indeed good works are essential as proof (outward evidence) that a sinner has been justified by grace.

Now please note this passage carefully (Eph 2:8-10):
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it isthe gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

So what is God telling us here? Is He not saying that we are saved by grace so that we might produce good works? And does not James tell us the same thing when he says that faith without works is dead (non-existent)?

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?... Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. (James 2:14-17)

And does not the apostle Paul tell us that we must be careful to maintain good works?

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. (Titus 3:7,8)

Christians need to maintain a proper balance in every doctrine. God has NOT eliminated good works at all. He has simply excluded them as a means of being justified in His sight. But every Christian will indeed give account for good works or lack of good works (2 Cor 5:10).

 

[quietthinker]

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Some say that verse 6 above is saying that at one time, God saved people unto eternal life by their works, but now it is by grace. This is because the verse reads it is " no more of works", therefore, it used to be. I do not hold to this.


Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

In the verses above, the meaning of "no more of works" can be found. Paul is saying that Israel sought righteousness, not by faith, but by the works of the law. Romans 11:6 is saying, the election of grace is God's determination to save those that believe by faith; faith would be based on the propitiation of Jesus. Israel stumbled at the stumblingstone of Christ. The remnant attained righteousness by faith. This righteousness is by grace, not by works. The remnant did not attain righteousness by the works of the law.

Paul stated that all of Israel were not children of God by virture of being of the seed of Abraham; Israel is counted as being the children of God thru the promise God gave through Isaac.

Rebecca had two sons, Jacob and Esau, by Isaac; God elected to chose Jacob to make the covenant
What is it you don't like about 'works'?

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Election is God chosing how, and through whom, he will fulfill His purposes. God did not chose Jacob because he did good, and Esau did evil. The election of grace is not dependant on doing good or evil. The election is of grace. The election is not of works.

That is why Romans 11:6 says that it is "no more of works". The remnant attains righteousness by the election of grace. If the election is by grace, then it is no more of works. Grace has been chosen by God for righteousness. Works have been eliminated as a means of attaining righteousness.

What is it that you don't like about works?

 

[Enoch111]

What is it that you don't like about works?

Probably the fact that they involve work. Labor. Blood, sweat, and tears.

 

[LoveBeacon]

First, why we need to attain it:

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3

Here is how it is explained:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him." I John 5:1

We were all born to our natural mother but we were all born dead because our parents were dead, were they not?

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen 2:17

"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." Gen 3:6

So then to God they were dead even though they continued to walk around and talk and also had children and acted among themselves as if they were alive. Would not the children of dead people also be dead? That's you and me. For this reason God sent His Son so that we could be born again this time to the ral Life that Jesus brought for us...

So where do we go from being born again? How about overcoming the world as Jesus did?

"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith" I John 5:4

Jesus did this, [overcame the world] and He paid the price to make it possible that we also may overcome the world:

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33

The world that Jesus overcame was NOT planet Earth as we should be able to see by looking around us. The world he overcame was the one within his own flesh which tempted him to sin.

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

He overcame all of those attractions which when followed lead a person to sin. He made it possible for you and I to also overcome the world, our own little world, within each of us, of the "lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes & the pride of life". One of rewards for us doing that is shown here:

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

When we are able to and do eat of the "tree of Life", the one that Adam and Eve skipped in Eden then we'll understand what Jesus meant here:

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

It seems that you are saying that we should overcome the world as Jesus did? I agree with this statement. Through your monologue, however, I couldn't find where you mentioned how we overcome the world. I think you mentioned something about overcoming the world as Jesus did. If so, then how do we do this today?

I appreciate your answer, so I am looking forward to your response to this question.

In peace

 

[LoveBeacon]

We only have to believe the gospel; Christ died for our sins, He fully paid the debt and penalty of our sin by the sacrifice of himself. He was buried and rose again for our justification.

How does God know that someone believes what you quoted above? You said we don't have to do ANYTHING to receive God's grace, then that means everybody (pagans, satanists, homosexuals) are all saved because what Jesus did on the cross paid for the sins of the whole world? I don't think you believe this, but when you make a statement that we don't have to do anything to receive God's grace, then this is what it implies.

In peace

 

[LoveBeacon]

I’ve struggled with your question also. Romans 9:19-23 helped. “Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?”

“Who has resisted God’s will?” If no one then ...”why does God yet find fault?”

“Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it , Why hast thou made me thus? [21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Consider the Son and what God asks of those vessels that obtain mercy: forgive as you have been forgiven. Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

“Prepared unto glory” ...

It is a bit unclear to me what you are saying here. I think it is just a misunderstanding on my part, so I will ask some questions to clear this confusion in my mind.

Are you saying the answer to my question is:
a) God predestines people to go to Heaven or Hell?
b) God wants people to forgive others and be merciful, in order to receive God's forgiveness and Mercy?

In peace

 

[LoveBeacon]

Only God can make someone a believer in Christ through the new birth. God dwells in each believer bearing witness with our spirit that we are his children. God knows all who belong to him.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you answered my questions. But I'll go by what you are sharing.

If God makes someone a believer, then God chooses others to not be believers and receive this new birth? Is this what you are saying?

In peace

 

[VictoryinJesus]

b) God wants people to forgive others and be merciful, in order to receive God's forgiveness and Mercy?

Not to earn forgiveness and mercy but to give it.

 

[Dave L]

I'm sorry, but I don't think you answered my questions. But I'll go by what you are sharing.

If God makes someone a believer, then God chooses others to not be believers and receive this new birth? Is this what you are saying?

In peace

This is what scripture teaches. You believe because God saved you. Otherwise you could not believe in any true sense.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I'm sorry, but I don't think you answered my questions. But I'll go by what you are sharing.

If God makes someone a believer, then God chooses others to not be believers and receive this new birth? Is this what you are saying?

In peace

Also consider 2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

God knows how to deliver and to reserve... delivers some but actually works the same power in ‘reserve’ which is purposely ‘to keep in place’ ...as in they have no power against God’s will to be ‘reserved’.

I’m sorry. I’m sure that probably makes it even worse. All I can encourage is to read all the verses and seek ...who is God? Is He love and fairness and not a respector of persons, or not? It is hard questions but GOD asks us, the vessels of mercy to do in return for receiving mercy and forgiveness...give what you have received so that the world may see you are the Children of God and that I sent you.

Luke 11:2-4
[2] And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. [3] Give us day by day our daily bread. [4] And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

 

[Doug]

How does God know that someone believes what you quoted above? You said we don't have to do ANYTHING to receive God's grace, then that means everybody (pagans, satanists, homosexuals) are all saved because what Jesus did on the cross paid for the sins of the whole world? I don't think you believe this, but when you make a statement that we don't have to do anything to receive God's grace, then this is what it implies.

In peace

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Romans 5:6

Christ died for all our sins

 

[bbyrd009]

If God makes someone a believer, then God chooses others to not be believers and receive this new birth? Is this what you are saying?

In peace

i guess that is what they are trying to say, ya.
It's complete crap of course, but you won't get anyone in that camp to seriously engage with you on it anyway. They will all turn into the Dodge Boys when you try lol. Best of luck tho