Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Right. However, Peter died some time ago.
You are reading 'successors' into the text.
No authority!
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Right. However, Peter died some time ago.
You are reading 'successors' into the text.
Ferris Bueller
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BreadOfLife
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Than YOU don't understand plain English.
The definition of "PRAY" simply means to ASK. As a matter of fact, as it pertains to "worship" - that is a SECONDARY definition.
The word "Pray" is legal, juridical language and is used in court documents and police reports.
Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:
Full Definition of pray
transitive verb
1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving
Acts 27:34 - KJV
"Wherefore I PRAY YOU to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you".
In this sense - Jesus "Prayed" to people throughout the Gospel: Matt. 5:46, Matt. 5:47, Matt. 6:27, Matt. 6:28, Matt. 7:3, Matt. 7:16, Matt. 8:26, Matt. 9:4, Matt. 9:5, Matt. 9:15, Matt. 9:28, Matt. 11:7, Matt. 11:16, Matt. 12:11, Matt. 12:29, Matt. 12:34, Matt. 12:48, Matt. 14:31, Matt. 15:3, Matt. 15:34, Matt. 16:9, Matt. 16:13, Matt. 16:15, Matt. 16:26, Matt. 17:17, Matt. 17:25, Matt. 18:12, Matt. 19:17, Matt. 20:21, Matt. 20:22, Matt. 20:32, Matt. 21:25, Matt. 21:28, Matt. 21:42, Matt. 22:18, Matt. 22:42, Matt. 23:17-19, Matt. 23:33, Matt. 26:10, Matt. 26:40, Matt. 26:53, Matt. 26:54, Matt. 26:55, Matt. 27:46, Mark 2:8, Mark 4:21, Mark 4:30, Mark 4:40, Mark 5:9, Mark 5:30, Mark 5:39, Mark 7:18, Mark 7:18, Mark 8:12, Mark 8:17-18, Mark 8:19, Mark 8:20, Mark 8:21, Mark 8:23, Mark 9:12, Mark 9:33, Mark 9:50, Mark 10:3, Mark 10:18, Mark 10:51, Mark 12:15, Mark 13:2, Mark 14:37, Mark 14:37, Luke 2:49, Luke 2:49, Luke 5:22, Luke 5:23, Luke 6:46, Luke 8:25, Luke 8:30, Luke 8:45, Luke 10:15, Luke 10:26, Luke 10:36, Luke 11:40, Luke 12:14-15, Luke 12:25, Luke 12:57, Luke 14:31, Luke 14:34, Luke 15:4, Luke 15:8, Luke 16:11, Luke 17:17, Luke 18:7, Luke 18:8, Luke 22:27, Luke 22:46, Luke 23:31, Luke 24:17, Luke 24:19, Luke 24:26, Luke 24:38, Luke 24:41, John 1:38, John 2:4, John 3:10, John 3:12, John 4:7, John 5:6, John 5:44, John 5:47, John 6:5, John 6:61, John 6:62, John 6:67, John 6:70, John 7:19, John7:19, John 7:23, John 8:10, John 8:43, John 8:46, John 8:46, John 10:36, John 11:9, John 11:26, John 11:33, John 13:12, John 14:9, John 18:4,7, John 18:11, John 18:34, John 18:21, John 18:23, John 20:15, John 21:5, John 21:17, John 21:22
apostolic successors?
explicit and implicit in scripture
Judas was an apostle
Acts 1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
Matthias succeeded him as apostle
acts 1: 26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
now if it applies to judas how much more to Peter and the other apostles
Matt 28:19-20
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Jesus is with His church and His apostles until the end! So the apostles must remain until the end governing the church administering the kingdom
Mt 16:18 Peter received the keys of the kingdom: (jurisdictional authority of the universal church) and the power to bind and loose:
Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter:
Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:
Teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors founded in the one true church by Jesus Christ!
Jesus Christ is the head of the church, (eph 5:23) the body of Christ,
(col 1:18) the new and eternal covenant, (pre-figured Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) new covenant replaces the Mosaic covenant, (Heb 8:13) Christ replaces David as king, (Lk 1:32-33) Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24) but a mediator remains on earth mediating between God and His people, but Christ ascended to heaven, (acts 1) before He did He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20
We must be taught by Peter, the apostles, and their successors! Lk 10:16 Matt 28:19 Jn 21:17
Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.
Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
————————-
The obedience of faith!
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.
Taught the one true faith revealed by Christ to His apostles! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3
We are not commanded to read and make doctrine for ourselves but obey those who God puts in authority.
——————————-
Successors of Moses!
Matt 23 why does Jesus say to obey the successors of Moses?
The successors of Moses sit in the chair of Moses having the authority of the keys and the power to bind and loose Matt 23 and Jesus commanded them to be obeyed! Then the kingdom was taken from them matt 21:43 and given to Peter, Matt 16:18 the apostles, Matt 18:18 and their successors with the authority of the keys and the power to bind and lose!
Jesus said to obey the authority of the successors of Moses mt 23 authority of the keys and power to bind and loose and this power and authority was taken from them matt and given by Christ to Peter, the apostles and their successors, mt 16:18 18:18 this same authority and power must be obeyed!
mt 28:18-20 all authority is given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors requiring obedience, rom 1:5 obedience to the faith!
And Jesus say to Peter, the apostles, and their successors: behold I am with you even until the end of the world!!!
So the apostles have to remain until the end! Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and Priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Reign with kingdom authority (keys) power (bind loose) matt 16:18
The successors of Peter and the apostles have a valid jurisdictional authority (keys) and power (bind and loose) by Jesus Christ!
Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...
John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Not this crap again! This is the 21st century. I suggest you join it.
I don’t care what words were used half a Millenia ago. For some odd reason, you are trying to fit words today into a lingo not commonly spoken today.
It’s such a distraction and that is why modern translations exist. HINT: Jesus did not speak the Kings English.
God always establishes order in obedience to hierarchical authority!
Without a central authority there can be no unity of the spirit, no obedience to the faith!
God - Christ - Peter - the apostles - the apostles successors - the people
The nature of order is authority, and authority is hierarchy!
Keys of authority! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18
Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors.
Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.
Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments
1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
the church is a kingdom not a democracy
You don’t have a vote
And certainly not a spiritual anarchy found in the Protestant and fundamentalist sects where anything goes!
The holy church is also the body of Christ and therefore eternal, his kingdom shall have no end Lk 1:32-33
And therefore is subject to the modern age or any century!
And therefore is subject to the modern age or any century!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
We rely on what He gave to teh apostles , you know what we call the bible. anything that contradicts the New Testament is a false teaching no matter the level of piety of the one promulgating it!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Acts-Revelation! Especially in Timothy and Galatians. Remember the bible was being preached before it was written. To contradict the teachings of the Apostles is to contradict jesus!
He said the Holy Spirit would bring all things back to their remembrance. Oral traditions MUST be compared to the written word! Remember God was actively invlved in the selection of the books to be called the New Testament!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
That authority is clearly spelled out in 1 Corinthians 11:3. Christ, not man, is the authority of men.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Taken
Well-Known Member
Greeting; hail, hi, hello
Luke 1:
[28] And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
News...(to "her" who is greeted by an angel)
Luke 1:
[28] And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
The news...?
Luke 1:
[28] And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured , the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
• Your highlight...is on a portion of the News given her.....and Adding language...and then using GREEK, and the Greek meaning; to make your additional Language FiT your narrative.
Luke 1:
[28] And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured , the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
• The Angel did NOT say " Favored one" ...
Which is what "you say", Kecharitomene means.
Luke 1:
Reveals an angel greeted her ("her" is already revealed as Mary). The Angel informs her/Mary :
•She is highly favoured...(study of several other Scriptures reveals WHY she specifically IS favoured)!
•The Lord is with her...(great! good info, and a student of Scripture would know the Lord has been with "other" people throughout history, so nothing miraculous, but good information for an individual to KNOW).
• She, is informed, she specifically is Blessed "among women".
...Maybe puzzling, for a man to comprehend...
But ... ONLY women, who become Pregnant, carry the developing Life within her, deliver forth the thing from within her...share "the Same Experience" AND ARE Blessings shared "Among other Women".
•Every Woman Female, should be fully aware;
A woman's blessing Among Women...IS precisely an Experience and Blessing ONLY women can share.
• DING, DING, DING ...it was a hint given Mary...(and you being a man, escaped your understanding)...
Mary was being "informed" "KNOWING"...she would share the Blessing of having a child....KNOWING that...Before ever having been with a man.
(The USUAL, is a woman married, laid with her husband, and HOPED, to become blessed with a pregnancy , and HOPED to be blessed with delivering a child.
• Mary GOT the ASSURED NEWS of her Blessing.... BEFORE...ever being married or having laid with a man).
Luke 1:
[28] And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
No one is confused about historical translations and transcriptions of Scripture From language to language.
Mary being "Favored", is not a phenomena...
Scriptural History reveals, numerous persons by "NAME", that were a Favored Choice, by God, to perform Services , For God, that "Effected", His WILL.
Scripture Historically reveals, numerous times, the Lord was "with" People.
Scripture Historically reveals, women being blessed with having "children".
Scripture Historically Reveals...another women, being informed, BEFORE being pregnant, that she would have a child with her husband.
Eh, she waited, became impatient, didn't Trust God...and decided "she" had to DO what God "was supposed to do, but didn't DO"..."according to" HER timetable expectation."
Remember her? Knowing beforehand, she would have a child? Sarah?
And Elisabeth...also barren, then Blessed with a child?
And ... Elisabeth knew and said:
Luke 1:
[24] And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying,
[25] Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he looked on me, to take away my reproach among men.
Is your beyond your comprehension ... The Lord showed FAVOUR to Sarah, to Elisabeth, to cause His Will be Done...that they each bare a child? A child God already knew would Favorably Serve the Lord to Accomplish His WILL?
Mary was favoured...which you should have learned, she was "the candidate", "by her circumstances"...the one favored to bring forth a child..."That NOT only Would speak Gods Word, but Would Do Gods Word, and His Doing Gods Word, would MAKE Possible for "ALL men to BECOME SAVED and BORN AGAIN"!
Mary's favoring was "more than any other woman, at that time, or ever shall be".
Thus the term "highly favored"....she was given the "high honor of bringing Forth the Child"...that the Greatness, befalls the Child...(in Sarah's case, Isaac, in Elisabeth's case, John and in Mary's case, The highly exalted, preferred, glorious, grace, TRUTH; Jesus) that it is the child (in adulthood) ...to Accomplish the "Greatest Service unto the Glory of God".
Each woman...
Sarah, (bringing forth Isaac)...
Elisabeth, (bringing forth John)...
Mary, (bringing forth Jesus)...
Completed their Blessed "woman Roles", on the day "each child was born".
And each woman found Favor with God...
And IF you studied OT, you should have learned, that people sought to be found Favored in the eyes of God....and were.
Scripture gives every indication, each of these Blessed women, Fulfilled their roles of "mothers", to their "child's raising" according to Gods instructions...fulfilling their role as "mothers"....
When "each of those children" reached "adulthood"; each of those children;
Fullifed "their individual roles" in Service to Gods Will BE Accomplished.
Sarah's role in Scripture....was completed.
Elisabeth's role in Scripture...was completed.
Mary's role in Scripture...was completed.
Sure we have knowledge of their roles, they each being a parts to fulfill Gods Will...along with many others from Scripture and in our daily lives.
•But good grief...what has become so Bizarre is instead of honoring the memory of Mary with dignity...men have built shrines, statutes, bow before the statues, kiss the statues, makeup wild doctrines, that she was sinless, didn't die, tell stories if her appearances, talking to them, that she bodily rose up to heaven, sits in Heaven on Gods Throne as A Queen and is the mother of God.
•All of the nonsense is Completely...in Opposition to the Truth of God Holy Word.
•How men brainwash children to believe such nonsense, is not surprising. Children are vunerable, and Trust parents will tell them the truth.
•What IS astonishing is Adult men, who hear others objections to such odd Mary Exalting, and DO NOT, pick UP Gods word written in Scripture, and learn they've been duped.
•You know the same frustration, when a liberal is content with being spoon fed nonsense by Dictators, instead of picking up the Constitution and Essays written by the very men willing to be SERVANTS.
Both...
Righteous standing and Political standing...
Effects individuals standing in "this" life.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
catholics will defend their errors to the end .
Look at the reasoning you just left me bread of life .
You said prayer simply means to ask .
Its more than that , or every time you ask an unbeliever for something , that would mean you are praying to them .
Yall defend your tradition . I did what i could . My hands are clean . DO NOT pray to anyone but GOD in JESUS name .
On the day of judgement you gonna wish you had heeded this friendly reminder .
Look at the reasoning you just left me bread of life .
You said prayer simply means to ask .
Its more than that , or every time you ask an unbeliever for something , that would mean you are praying to them .
Yall defend your tradition . I did what i could . My hands are clean . DO NOT pray to anyone but GOD in JESUS name .
On the day of judgement you gonna wish you had heeded this friendly reminder .
Taken
Well-Known Member
Favor is HOW Gods sees each individual.
I am not Adam.
God provided me with an Offering to be in His favor and grace and Truth.
God gave me the option to accept His Offer or not.
I elected to Accept His Offering.
Things I do In His Service to Glorify Him...
Is What He sees, what is favorable to Him, and I reap the Benefit via His Blessings.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Luke 2:30 does not remotely say what you just said.
Luke 2:
[30] And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
BreadOfLife
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In your usual long-winded, psychotic-rant syle - you have said NOTHING that akes ay sense.
And rejecting the Greek text gets you nowhere . . .
The fact is that there is NO good single-word translation for the Greek, "Kecharitomene".
According to the scholars at Biblical Hermeneutics Stack Exchange:
"The Greek word κεχαριτωμένη (kecharitōmenē) is the word of contention here as regards translation differences. And it is has much to do with the theology of the translator, but only to a degree—no translations of it have been strictly wrong or right since only dynamic translations (“full of..,” “highly..” etc.) are really possible with such a grammatically rich word. That is, it is difficult to render a single Greek word so rich in meaning (grammatically) into an equivalent word in English: in fact, that is arguably impossible (without being a very ugly translation)."
Jerome used "Gratia plena (full of grace) and the editors of the KJV used "thou that art highly favoured".
NEITHER is a decent translation of Kecharitomene - although Jerome's comes closer to the truth.
It's NOT about "defending a narrative".
It's about linguistic FACTS . . .
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BreadOfLife
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No - the idea that "Pray" ALWAYS means "worchip" is a Proestant tradition.
The linguistic fact is that it simply means "to ASK".
You can deny that ALL day long - and you'll still be wrong . . .
Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:
Full Definition of pray
transitive verb
1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving
Authority is in men
2 John 1:12
Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.
lk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
the issue or favor is salvation that’s why the angel explains His name!
mother of our salvation!
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