No authority!

[theefaith]

Sorry, but the Bible shows only believers (meaning those already saved) were baptized with the triune formula as commanded in by Jesus.

1. Get sacved
2. Get baptized
3. Learn the Word!
4. Live the Word

That is how it works. Water Baptism is simply a public declaration of something that has already taken place inside! Being immersed (not sprinkled) has no saving power. It is faith that saves and not water baptism.

sound like a public demonstration to you?

Or symbolic?


Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Ephesians 4:5 
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Colossians 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Heb 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

(Born of God) faith and baptism

Jn 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: see Ez 36

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (baptism rom 6:3-4)

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

 

[theefaith]

I pity you for being so deceived!

Ephesians 2:8-9
King James Version

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

John 3:15-16
King James Version

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Adding anything to this simple Biblical truth places that person in danger of being guilty of this:

Galatians 1:6-9
King James Version

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Where does eph 2 say salvation? It refers to redemption not salvation

 

[BreadOfLife]

Anti-Catholics understand the 'you' is in the context of the passage and refers to any two believers......

...if two of you on the earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven. For where two or three gather together in My name, there am I with them.” Matthew 18:19-20​

Any two believers who agree on earth in a matter of forgiveness establish the matter in heaven too. If you wronged me and I confronted you and you asked for forgiveness and I forgave you, God looks at the matter and says, "I see no record of offense here. The matter is settled in my sight as you have settled among yourselves." No Catholic priest required to mediate that transaction.

That's because Anti-Catholics don't understand that Matt. 18-19-20 refers ONLY to verses 15-16. Verses 17-18 refer to Church Authority - which Jesus hammers home over and over again in Matt. 16:18-19, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15 and John 20:21-23.

Don't just read ONE passage of Sctripture. Read ALL of it in context . . .

That's what I said. And that's why we don't need a Catholic priest to take us into the Holy of Holies! Jesus alone is the way to the mercy seat and the presence of God. Jesus is the torn veil that has opened up the Holy of Holies to all of God's people. No Catholic priest required to enter through the torn veil of Jesus and into the presence of God.

You Catholics replaced the Levitical High Priest with your own order of priests who prohibit access to the mercy seat of God. Christ did away with that priestly mediation and replaced it with his own, instantly accessible without hindrance to every person who has faith in Christ. That is what this New Covenant is all about. You Catholics are still living in the old covenant system with a New Covenant flavor to it to give it the appearance of legitimacy. But you can't fool those who know better.

And this is a PERFECT example of your Scriptural ignorance.

We don't "replace" anything. Jesus FULFILLS Judaism with His Church. EVERY SINGLE OT Type has an NT Fulfillment.
For the last 2 dozen posts now, you have complained and whined about the Ministerial Priesthood spoken of in the NT - but you STILL haven't been able to refute those verses.
ALL you bring to the table is denial after denial.

That's bush-league debating tactics.
Scriptural proof demands Scriptural refutation . . .

 

[Triumph1300]

Suuuurrrre . . .

That's why there are literally tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines based on the "gift" of Scriptural understanding from tens of thousands of different individuals.
What a mess . . .

According to YOUR logic - God is a great big Practical Joker in the sky who thrives on confusion.
Thankfully - the God of Scripture left His CHURCH in charge (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

I agree, there are a lot of different doctrines flying around
within the protestant churches, nobody would deny it.

But according the Catholic News there seems to be lots of disunity
within the Roman Catholic Church as well.

Catholic News Agency :: CNA

Nothing new in the Church world.

Get off your high chair BOL, you catholics are no hair different.

 

[theefaith]

Suuuurrrre . . .

That's why there are literally tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines based on the "gift" of Scriptural understanding from tens of thousands of different individuals.
What a mess . . .

According to YOUR logic - God is a great big Practical Joker in the sky who thrives on confusion.
Thankfully - the God of Scripture left His CHURCH in charge (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

Where is the unity of the church, the faith, and the spirit????

The eternal truth of God reveled by Christ to all men thru His one Holy Catholic and Apstolic church!
Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

There is only one faith of Christians!
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism!

The truth is not something but somebody: Jesus Christ!
Jn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Doctrine or truth is revealed by God and taught Christ and His church and by His authorized representatives! Matt 28:19 Lk 10:16 Jn 13:20 Jude 1:3

Contend for thee faith once handed to the saints! Jude 1:3

Romans 1:5
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

2 Corinthians 5:18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

2 Corinthians 2:10
To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

“Thee Faith” “De Fide” “Sound Doctrine” or Dogma is found 31 times in the New Testament!

1 Timothy 6:21
Which some professing have erred concerning thee faith.

Titus 3:15
All that are with me salute thee. Greet them that love us in the faith

Ephesians 4:5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Philippians 1:27
Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for thee faith of the gospel.

2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept thee faith:

We must be instructed in thee faith by Peter, the apostles and or thier succsessors and are forbidden to read the Bible for yourself and make your own faith or decide what is truth! (You are obliged to read the scriptures yes, but not to determine doctrine)

 

[BreadOfLife]

Can't you see that when it doesn't fail the believers themselves are establishing in heaven what they have established among themselves? Just as surely when it does fail that they don't establish in heaven what they have not established on earth. This is not just a Catholic priest thing. It's a believer's thing.

YOUR problem is that you can't find a shred of Scripture tro support your position.

Jesus NEVER gives the crowds the power to boind and loose.
This is ALWAYS and ONLY done with His inner circle (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, John 20:21-23).

Your priesthood is not the only ones that forgive or not forgive someone in the church who has been sinning. Paul speaks of the majority in the church, not just the leadership, exercising binding and loosing in regard to the matter of the sinning man at Corinth....

The punishment imposed on him by the majority is sufficient for him. So instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him... 2 Corinthians 2:6-7​

The leadership is hardly the majority of the church. When we bind or loose forgiveness as a majority, laity and leadership together, we establish the matter in heaven just as we established it on earth amongst ourselves. No Catholic priest required. The sinning man doesn't even need any of us! His own faith takes him right into the Holy of Holies vicariously through Jesus without any help from us. He needs us to be reconciled to the assembly, but he does not need any of us to be reconciled to God. His faith does that for him all by itself.

And AGAIN, you pervert these verses (2 Cor. 2:6-7) as you pervert every other passage of Scripture because you refuse to read Scripture in its proper CONTEXT.

READ the entire context of what Paul is saying here:
2 Cor. 2:5-11
If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you to some extent—not to put it too severely. The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient. Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. Another reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. Anyone you forgive, I also forgive. And what I have forgiven—if there was anything to forgive—I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, in order that Satan might not outwit us. For WE are not unaware of his schemes.

Paul is NOT acknowledging that the entire congregation has the same Authority. He is telling ADVISING them, as a Body, how to treat this particular member of their congregation.

The entire last part above is about Paul's priestly Authority over the congregatopn and the hierarchy ("WE") who are aware of the situation.

 

[theefaith]

YOUR problem is that you can't find a shred of Scripture tro support your position.

Jesus NEVER gives the crowds the power to boind and loose.
This is ALWAYS and ONLY done with His inner circle (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, John 20:21-23).

And AGAIN, you pervert these verses (2 Cor. 2:6-7) as you pervert every other passage of Scripture because you refuse to read Scripture in its proper CONTEXT.

READ the entire context of what Paul is saying here:
2 Cor. 2:5-11
If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you to some extent—not to put it too severely. The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient. Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. Another reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. Anyone you forgive, I also forgive. And what I have forgiven—if there was anything to forgive—I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, in order that Satan might not outwit us. For WE are not unaware of his schemes.

Paul is NOT acknowledging that the entire congregation has the same Authority. He is telling ADVISING them, as a Body, how to treat this particular member of their congregation.

The entire last part above is about Paul's priestly Authority over the congregatopn and the hierarchy ("WE") who are aware of the situation.

matt 28:19 I suppose the nations are to teach themselves?

 

[BreadOfLife]

I agree, there are a lot of different doctrines flying around
within the protestant churches, nobody would deny it.

But according the Catholic News there seems to be lots of disunity
within the Roman Catholic Church as well.

Catholic News Agency :: CNA

Nothing new in the Church world.

Get off your high chair BOL, you catholics are no hair different.

First of all - I was challenging the idea that EVERYBODY is given "individual authority" to interpret Scripture.
This is nonsense, as I showed.

Secondly - the Catholic Church is united in doctrine. Those who pick and choose what they WANT to accept are dissidents.
EVERY group has those and they are not "denominations" - unless they break away.

Finally - your use of the term, "Roman Catholic Church" is flawed. There is only "The Catholic Church".
"Roman" (Latin) simply refers to the Liturgical Rite - of which there are about TWENTY.

 

[theefaith]

No, not at all! It's a person's public declaration of his pledge to being a disciple of Christ. It's the beginning of his witness to the world.

...the baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge off a clear conscience toward God—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ... 1 Peter 3:21​

Water baptism jump starts the believer's witness as he publicly confesses his faith in Christ and identifies himself as a disciple of Christ, committing himself to a life of purity and righteousness.

sound like a public demonstration to you?

Or symbolic?


Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Ephesians 4:5 
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Colossians 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Heb 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

(Born of God) faith and baptism

Jn 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: see Ez 36

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (baptism rom 6:3-4)

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

 

[Ferris Bueller]

sound like a public demonstration to you?

Yes.....

...the pledge of a clear conscience toward God... 1 Peter 3:21

Or symbolic?

Like any other obedience to Christ's commands, it's a demonstration of your faith and commitment to God. And like any other obedience to the things Christ commands his people to do, it has no power to earn justification.

Just as the Jews mistakenly thought getting circumcised earned justification, so the Catholics think getting baptized earns justification. Works can only demonstrate righteousness, not secure it. This very point is why there are Catholics and why there are anti-Catholics.

 

[Taken]

That's why there are literally tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines based on the "gift" of Scriptural understanding from tens of thousands of different individuals...

Consider a message for the ignorant to overcome their ignorance.

1 Cor 12:
[1] Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.[4] Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

According to YOUR logic -

My words are in stated in my words...as I said;
"Understanding Gods Word is a Gift Given from God to an individual."

Scripture says:
Luke 24:
[45] Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures...

Now let's Examine YOUR Words...

God is a great big Practical Joker in the sky who thrives on confusion.

WOW...
A Clear Contrast...between what Scripture says and I agree with...and what YOU say.

• Then you continue with a comment, and reference several Scriptures to buttress ... you saying "God LEFT His Church in charge".

Thankfully

- the God of Scripture left His CHURCH in charge (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

Christ's Church is filled with men with Christ Jesus' Word in their Mouths TO Speak Gods Word TO Other men.

And NO reference you mentioned, Says...

God is a great big Practical Joker in the sky who thrives on confusion.

You tout Christ's Church is Exclusively the "catholic church".

You promote yourself as a "catholic church representative teacher."

You identify "by name" your catholic church "leaders".

And out of your mouth...IS:

God is a great big Practical Joker in the sky who thrives on confusion.

Those ARE your words...
not mine.

Per usual...I disagree with you.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Don't just read ONE passage of Sctripture. Read ALL of it in context . . .

I posted all the context to show the consistent flow of thought. It's obvious that Jesus is saying that the 'two or more' gathered in his name means any two or more, not two or more of your exclusive, authority usurping, Catholic priesthood that conveniently inserted itself between the believer and Christ's ministry at the altar in heaven. You Catholics installed a veil of Catholic priests between God and God's people where Jesus had torn it down.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

We don't "replace" anything. Jesus FULFILLS Judaism with His Church. EVERY SINGLE OT Type has an NT Fulfillment.
For the last 2 dozen posts now, you have complained and whined about the Ministerial Priesthood spoken of in the NT - but you STILL haven't been able to refute those verses.
ALL you bring to the table is denial after denial.

The Catholics are the scripturally ignorant ones. They created a mortal priesthood and say you can only get to God through it. Jesus himself did away with that corrupt system. Now all the people of God, not just appointed mortal priests, can go directly to God through Jesus. The Catholics claim you have to go through their mortals to get to God. They have usurped Jesus' role as the veil through which people approach the mercy seat of God.

 

[theefaith]

Consider a message for the ignorant to overcome their ignorance.

1 Cor 12:
[1] Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.[4] Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.




My words are in stated in my words...as I said;
"Understanding Gods Word is a Gift Given from God to an individual."

Scripture says:
Luke 24:
[45] Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures...

Now let's Examine YOUR Words...



WOW...
A Clear Contrast...between what Scripture says and I agree with...and what YOU say.

• Then you continue with a comment, and reference several Scriptures to buttress ... you saying "God LEFT His Church in charge".



Christ's Church is filled with men with Christ Jesus' Word in their Mouths TO Speak Gods Word TO Other men.

And NO reference you mentioned, Says...



You tout Christ's Church is Exclusively the "catholic church".

You promote yourself as a "catholic church representative teacher."

You identify "by name" your catholic church "leaders".

And out of your mouth...IS:



Those ARE your words...
not mine.

Per usual...I disagree with you.

the church founded by Christ teaches!
Jn 8:32 16:13
Teaching authority of Peter and the apostles and their successors!


Teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors founded in the one true church by Jesus Christ!

Jesus Christ is the head of the church, (eph 5:23) the body of Christ,
(col 1:18) the new and eternal covenant, (pre-figured Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) new covenant replaces the Mosaic covenant, (Heb 8:13) Christ replaces David as king, (Lk 1:32-33) Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24) but a mediator remains on earth mediating between God and His people, but Christ ascended to heaven, (acts 1) before He did He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

We must be taught by Peter, the apostles, and their successors! Lk 10:16 Matt 28:19 Jn 21:17

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.



The obedience of faith!

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.

Taught the one true faith revealed by Christ to His apostles! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

We are not commanded to read and make doctrine for ourselves but obey those who God puts in authority to teach the Christian Faith!





Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments

 

[BreadOfLife]

Consider a message for the ignorant to overcome their ignorance.

1 Cor 12:
[1] Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.[4] Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.


My words are in stated in my words...as I said;
"Understanding Gods Word is a Gift Given from God to an individual."

Scripture says:
Luke 24:
[45] Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures...

Now let's Examine YOUR Words...
God is a great big Practical Joker in the sky who thrives on confusion.
WOW...
A Clear Contrast...between what Scripture says and I agree with...and what YOU say.

• Then you continue with a comment, and reference several Scriptures to buttress ... you saying "God LEFT His Church in charge".

Christ's Church is filled with men with Christ Jesus' Word in their Mouths TO Speak Gods Word TO Other men.
And NO reference you mentioned, Says...

You tout Christ's Church is Exclusively the "catholic church".
You promote yourself as a "catholic church representative teacher."
You identify "by name" your catholic church "leaders".
And out of your mouth...IS:

Those ARE your words...
not mine.
Per usual...I disagree with you.

And, as usual, you'veve proven yourself a fraud yet again.
Funny how you conveniently left OUT the entirety of my comment.

I didn't say that God was a "Practical Joker".
THIS is what I said in post# 1640 . . .

According to YOUR logic - God is a great big Practical Joker in the sky who thrives on confusion.
Thankfully - the God of Scripture left His CHURCH in charge (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

I realize that deception is your ONLY tool when you've lost an argument.
But, keep in mind who the Father of deception is (John 8:44) . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I posted all the context to show the consistent flow of thought. It's obvious that Jesus is saying that the 'two or more' gathered in his name means any two or more, not two or more of your exclusive, authority usurping, Catholic priesthood that conveniently inserted itself between the believer and Christ's ministry at the altar in heaven. You Catholics installed a veil of Catholic priests between God and God's people where Jesus had torn it down.

The Catholics are the scripturally ignorant ones. They created a mortal priesthood and say you can only get to God through it. Jesus himself did away with that corrupt system. Now all the people of God, not just appointed mortal priests, can go directly to God through Jesus. The Catholics claim you have to go through their mortals to get to God. They have usurped Jesus' role as the veil through which people approach the mercy seat of God.

And you keep missing the point.

Matt. 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Jesus didn't "do away" with anything. He FULFILLED it - made it perfect.
God didn't set up OT Types so He could simply "erase" them in the NT. EVERY OT Type has its NT fulfillment.
And the fulfillment is ALWAYS more perfect than its OT Type.

The slaughtered animals and burnt offerings brought before God in the OT to make appeasement for sin were just that - appeasement.
It was NOT complete forgiveness. ONLY the Lamb of God can bring forgiveness - and HE gave that Authority to His Apostles:

John 20:21-23
(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send YOU."
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained."

Here's a challenge for you: Name ONE OT Type that God "erased" in the NT and was never fulfilled.

 

[theefaith]

Yes.....

...the pledge of a clear conscience toward God... 1 Peter 3:21



Like any other obedience to Christ's commands, it's a demonstration of your faith and commitment to God. And like any other obedience to the things Christ commands his people to do, it has no power to earn justification.

Just as the Jews mistakenly thought getting circumcised earned justification, so the Catholics think getting baptized earns justification. Works can only demonstrate righteousness, not secure it. This very point is why there are Catholics and why there are anti-Catholics.

Church fathers

A) "It does not suffice to believe. He who believes and is not yet baptized, but is only a Catechumen, has not yet fully acquired salvation." St. Thomas Aquinas

B) "Now, even the Catechumen believes in the Cross of the Lord Jesus, but unless he be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, he cannot receive remission of his sins nor the gift of spiritual grace." St. Ambrose

C) "Without the Sacrament of Baptism, no one is ever justified. If anyone says that Baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation: let him be anathema." Council of Trent

D)
“There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized” (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).
St. AUGUSTINE

E) “As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
JUSTIN MARTYR

TERTULLIAN
“Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and.asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!” (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).

“Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (ibid., 12).

ORIGEN
“It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism” (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).

CYRIL OF JERUSALEM
“If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation.

 

[theefaith]

Church fathers

A) "It does not suffice to believe. He who believes and is not yet baptized, but is only a Catechumen, has not yet fully acquired salvation." St. Thomas Aquinas

B) "Now, even the Catechumen believes in the Cross of the Lord Jesus, but unless he be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, he cannot receive remission of his sins nor the gift of spiritual grace." St. Ambrose

C) "Without the Sacrament of Baptism, no one is ever justified. If anyone says that Baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation: let him be anathema." Council of Trent

D)
“There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized” (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).
St. AUGUSTINE

E) “As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
JUSTIN MARTYR

TERTULLIAN
“Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and.asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!” (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).

“Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (ibid., 12).

ORIGEN
“It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism” (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).

CYRIL OF JERUSALEM
“If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation.

 

[theefaith]

Church fathers

A) "It does not suffice to believe. He who believes and is not yet baptized, but is only a Catechumen, has not yet fully acquired salvation." St. Thomas Aquinas

B) "Now, even the Catechumen believes in the Cross of the Lord Jesus, but unless he be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, he cannot receive remission of his sins nor the gift of spiritual grace." St. Ambrose

C) "Without the Sacrament of Baptism, no one is ever justified. If anyone says that Baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation: let him be anathema." Council of Trent

D)
“There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized” (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).
St. AUGUSTINE

E) “As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
JUSTIN MARTYR

TERTULLIAN
“Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and.asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!” (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).

“Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (ibid., 12).

ORIGEN
“It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism” (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).

CYRIL OF JERUSALEM
“If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Church fathers

A) "It does not suffice to believe. He who believes and is not yet baptized, but is only a Catechumen, has not yet fully acquired salvation." St. Thomas Aquinas

B) "Now, even the Catechumen believes in the Cross of the Lord Jesus, but unless he be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, he cannot receive remission of his sins nor the gift of spiritual grace." St. Ambrose

C) "Without the Sacrament of Baptism, no one is ever justified. If anyone says that Baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation: let him be anathema." Council of Trent

D)
“There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized” (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).
St. AUGUSTINE

E) “As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
JUSTIN MARTYR

TERTULLIAN
“Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and.asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!” (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).

“Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (ibid., 12).

ORIGEN
“It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism” (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).

CYRIL OF JERUSALEM
“If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation.

I believe that a person who does not obey Christ's commands, including the command to be baptized, is in unbelief and will not be saved when Jesus comes back. The difference between you and me is you think he won't be saved because he did not earn it, while I say he won't be saved because he does not believe in Christ's forgiveness, his lack of obedience being the evidence of that.