NEWSFLASH: Abraham was not a Jew. Neither was Isaac. Neither was Jacob.

[Eternally Grateful]

Not however that the word of God has failed, for not all those of Israel are Israel; nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they all children.

10. Does the word "all" in reference to the seed of Israel in Jeremiah 31:37 have any correlation with the word "all" in Romans 9:6?​

37 Thus says the Lord:

“If heaven above can be measured, Can we measure heaven?
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, Can the foundations of the earth be searched beneath
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the Lord.

Then I would also add. Has ALL f Israel rejected the lord? He mentions a remnant in Rom 11. Why do you keep a remnant?

Also. Jer 31..

31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, [h]though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their [i]hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

This is the house of Judah And Israel. 2 nations. No gentiles..

I believe God is telling how impossible it will be for him to cast off the seed. As heaven can not be measured, and the foundations of the earth miles below the surface can not be searched.

I have no more questions about Romans 11 for now that I'd like you to answer.

Just so you know, I have a hope that I hold in my mind and heart that's strong enough to cause me to stop myself from turning it into a belief, that all Jews will eventually turn to Jesus - but this hope is not based on Romans 11. It's based on Joseph and his 11 bothers in Egypt, and how Joseph's estrangement with his brothers ended, how he was reconciled to them, and what took place afterward.​

Yes. He did say it. I have a question about the above:

Will the reunification of the house of Israel with the house of Judah mentioned above take place in Christ, or regardless of Christ?​

In Christ.

1. They repent
2. Christ returns at that time and restores them

look up the time of Jacobs trouble, Jer 30. It is this great tribulation, which God says non shall be like it. (see matt 24) that causes Israel to repent. The lord returns at the end of the "tribulation"

But Israel must repent.. He will not restore them in sin. Lev 26 makes this clear.

I agree. God will keep His promise. I just don't know whether it's talking about what will take place in the millennium, or in the NHNE. All I know is I don't see it yet: Israel is not now living in a land of unwalled villages in peace and safety. The prophet also said that the only thing that will break that peace and safety is Gog of Magog.

The thousand years in Revelation 20 seems to end with something similar, or maybe the same thing.

I would only insert Gentiles who are in Christ, who together with Jews in Christ, are one in Christ Jesus if God Himself inserts Gentiles into Israel (grafts them into the Olive tree) and calls them the house of Israel (i.e the 10 tribes who were lost but will be joined into one stick with Judah - the Jews),

which either way, I can only see as taking place in Christ.

After all, only the descendants of the tribe of Judah, are Jews, and Benjamin and some Levites have become amalgamated with Judah. The other ten tribes - all who were exiled in 725 BC - are lost.

Yet Paul included Gentiles in his statement in Romans 9:22-26 regarding the fulfillment of Hosea 1:9-11 (which speaks only about the 10 tribes who are now lost), and why he did so is a mystery to me.​

during the 1000 years. The nations/Families (gentiles) are in their land, and the Israel is in their land. In fact. the nations will be required to come worship the king once a year..

Zechariah 14:16-18

16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

This is after the return of Christ

I hope I have answered all your questions in a way you understand

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It was a requirement of God's OT covenant with faithful obedient Israelites (which included Gentiles, Genesis 17:12).

But Under God's NT covenant, physical circumcision is no longer everlasting; it is entirely replaced by spiritual circumcision. Romans 2:28,29

For Jew and Gentile alike.

Likewise, the OT land promise is no longer eternal; it is entirely replaced by NT fulfillment and inheritance in Christ and those who are Christ's. 2 Corinthians 1:20; Galatians 3:16,29; Hebrews 1:1,2; Romans 8:17.

Your trying to mix the land covenant and blessings in the land, with the eternal covenant with all people in heaven, and the covenant salvation through Christ.

I can not do this. they are two different covenants.

 

[Zao is life]

This is long, I pray you read it. For every word and scripture is needed to answer this question completely

I have read it, and I'm already familiar with the scriptures, but will be reading it again as I respond to your post:​

If you look at this with Gen 17. You see 2 things.

1. It was a one way covenant. God said I give you, Unlike a 2 way covenant, when God says if you do this, I will do that.
2. In both passages. the promise to given to every one of his descendants. not just a select few. And again, there was no requirements for the people to keep to be part of this covenant promise.
3. The covenant was made with Abraham, He was the one to home the covenant was made. this covenant then passes down to his offspring. as it was his..
4. The covenant was reconfirmed with Both Issac And Jacob/Israel

Issac

Gen 26

Notice also. He explained why.; it was not because they were good. It was because ABRAHAM believed. And because abraham was obedient. it had nothing to do with how Good Issac or Jacob or anyone else was. or wither they believed or not.

Jacob

Gen 35:

I'm shortening it, because I know what you're talking about, and I'm familiar with the scriptures - and I do not disagree with you, so far.

I agree 100%. The promise is not dependent on the faithfulness of Abraham's descendants, but on the faithfulness of God, because He unilaterally (and without Abraham even soliciting it), promised it to Abraham (not to his posterity - but the promise included his posterity, which is why it was inherited by Jesus as the promised seed through whom all the nations of the earth are blessed, which God promised to Abraham).

And God sealed it by covenant - a covenant which did not require both parties to make promises of value (unlike the law), but the promises are dependent on God alone. God alone passed through the pieces when He made the covenant with Abraham.

In fact I'll add to what you say, with a question regarding this:

The law which came 430 years later, that promises blessing and occupation of the land IF Israel are obedient and faithful, but curses and exile from the land if they are unfaithful and disobedient, does not annul the promises to Abraham or the Abrahamic Covenant:

So (QUESTION): Why did God add a demand in the law 430 years later that required both parties in the covenant of law to make promises of value to one another, in order for Israel to inherit a promise that was unconditional, and which was made to Abraham and his seed?

That's a topic on it's own, so I'm not going to give a full answer to it in this post - but bear it in mind.​

I think you will recognize. this final form of discipline happened three times in scripture.

1. The northern kingdom of Israel. By Assyria,
2. The southern kingdom of Judah, By Babylon
3. The final one in 70 AD by Rome.

Correct. If you read the prophets, God completely cut off the kingdom of Israel. They completely and forever ceased being A NATION (ONE NATION) before God - "the lost 10 tribes" will NEVER be one nation before God again.

But God said in Hosea and elsewhere that He would continue to have mercy on Judah. Why?

You answered the above question already, in your statement below:​

Between 2 and 3. Judah did not repent. Yet God restored them. which had to happen for Christ to be born (the 70 weeks of Daniel)

We agree with everything above so far, but this below is were I believe you are going wrong:​

and since 70 AD. they are still in sin.. But must be allowed back into the land for end time events to happen. (Again, a temple must be present)

1. The temple is already present. It's Christ and the living stones who are indwelt by His Spirit. Israel is the nation. Israel has a temple, made up of the citizens of the nation. The remnant of Abraham's seed ensured the continuation of the nation, and Gentiles have been added ever since.

There is now no difference between the nation and the temple of God.

2. The place where I believe you are making a mistake is because of the answer to the question:

The law which came 430 years later, that promises blessing and occupation of the land IF Israel are obedient and faithful, but curses and exile from the land if they are unfaithful and disobedient, does not annul the promises to Abraham or the Abrahamic Covenant:

QUESTION: So why did God add a demand in the law 430 years later that required both parties in the covenant of law to make promises of value to one another, in order for Israel to inherit a promise that was unconditional, and made to Abraham and his seed?

The answer lies below:

16 And to Abraham and to his Seed the promises were spoken. It does not say, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, "And to your Seed," which is Christ.
17 And I say this, A covenant having been ratified to Christ by God in Christ, the Law (coming into being four hundred and thirty years after) does not annul the promise, so as to abolish it.
18 For if the inheritance is of Law, it is no more of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by way of promise.

They needed to repent of their unbelief in their Messiah, who is their God. It was their unbelief in Jesus that caused them to be exiled, not their disobedience to the law (Jesus came and died and rose again so that they could be forgiven for breaking their part of the deal in the covenant of law).

But God always uses man's doings to turn them around to fulfill His own will. So God allowed them to bring themselves back into the part of the land that the 10 tribes of the Northern kingdom was exiled from in 725 B.C (and would never return to), instead of being able to return to Judah, the land of the Jews, most of which lies in the West Bank.

And God allowed the (united) nations to pass a resolution to create the state of Israel in 1948, which prevented the Jews from returning to their allotted OWN inheritance (Judah).

Instead, the U.N told the Jews that they must continue allowing a people to dwell in Judah who hate the Jews, and will continue to do anything and everything they can to annihilate them, and wipe the state called Israel off the map,

And God has seen and continues to see how the nations have been treacherous with the Jews, demanding they make impossible concessions with people who hate them and want to annihilate them, while the nations who do not want their annihilation and the annihilation of their state talk out of both sides of the mouth to both the Jews and their enemies.

.. and what I see is it all culminating with God judging the nations in the valley of Jehoshaphat in Jerusalem. The Kidron Valley (Joel chapter 3), but saving the Jews of Israel when they finally recognize Jesus, and call on Him to save them.

I don't want any of the above to happen - especially not to the Jews, who as far as I'm concerned, have suffered more than enough over these last 2,000 years already. But it's all I see prophesied in the Bible. I don't see it working out any other way in any of the prophecies of scripture - Old or New Testament. But I also especially don't want it to happen to the saints in the great tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast, either.​

The final point, is after these destruction's. Is it final?

Lev 26 answers this question also

40 ‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,

45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God:
I am the Lord.’ ”

Yes, Christ is the end of the law unto salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first, and also for the Gentile. The seed of Abraham through whom they will be blessed is Christ. They need to repent of their unbelief. Neither the law, nor the broken law annuls God's covenant with Abraham.

Remember, It was their unbelief in Jesus that caused them to be exiled from 70 A.D, not their disobedience to the law (Jesus came and died and rose again so that they could be forgiven for breaking their part of the deal in the covenant of law).​

 

[covenantee]

Your trying to mix the land covenant and blessings in the land, with the eternal covenant with all people in heaven, and the covenant salvation through Christ.

I can not do this. they are two different covenants.

Yes, they are two different wills/testaments.

And a New Will/Testament completely replaces an old will/testament upon the death of the testator. Hebrews 9:15-17

That's how wills/testaments work.

 

[Zao is life]

37 Thus says the Lord:

“If heaven above can be measured, Can we measure heaven?
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, Can the foundations of the earth be searched beneath
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the Lord.

Then I would also add. Has ALL f Israel rejected the lord? He mentions a remnant in Rom 11. Why do you keep a remnant?

Exactly. That remnant (the apostles + the disciples) went sharing the gospel with the Gentiles and those who believed were grafted into Israel - not 50% grafted in. Not 75 % grafted into Israel. 100% grafted into Israel. God does not deal with half measures.

Jewish not-believers are broken off from Israel. Not 50% broken off. Not 75% broken off . 100% broken off. God does not deal with half measures.

There are too many scriptures that make Gentiles grafted in, joint heirs equally - 100% equally - with the Jewish believers.

And the Jewish not-believers are broken off.

You're exalting the Jews above the Gentiles again by saying "2 nations. No Gentiles". It's a lie.

A small Jewish remnant + Gentiles grafted in = ISRAEL = THE CHURCH. God does not see Jew or Gentile in Christ.

Epehsians 2
19 So then you are no longer foreigners and noncitizens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of God's household,
20 because you have been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone.

The New Covenant mentioned below came in the blood of Christ 2,000 years ago, and any unbelieving Jew who wants to be a part of it needs to turn away from his unbelief to Christ, so that he can be grafted in again.

Also. Jer 31..

This is the house of Judah And Israel. 2 nations. No gentiles..

False. 12 tribes, 10 of whom are no longer one nation and were cut off as being a nation before God in 725 BC.

No unbelieving Jews. Only Jewish believers and Gentile believers. Stop exalting Jews. It's unbiblical and idolatrous.

I believe God is telling how impossible it will be for him to cast off the seed.

He has not cast off ALL the seed and in Jeremiah 31:37 He said He will not cast of ALL the seed. Paul confirmed this in Romans 9 and 11.

But the unbelieving seed have been cast off.

As heaven can not be measured, and the foundations of the earth miles below the surface can not be searched.

In Christ.

1. They repent
2. Christ returns at that time and restores them

look up the time of Jacobs trouble, Jer 30. It is this great tribulation, which God says non shall be like it. (see matt 24) that causes Israel to repent. The lord returns at the end of the "tribulation"

But Israel must repent.. He will not restore them in sin. Lev 26 makes this clear.

during the 1000 years. Zechariah 14

16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem

Those which came against Jerusalem. What if the USA doesn't come against Jerusalem? Will Americans be forced to go up too?

I hope I have answered all your questions in a way you understand

I don't agree at all with the house of Israel (10 tribes) + house of Judah (2 tribes) = 2 nations thing.

Nor do I agree with the no Gentiles thing. Gentiles who believe in Jesus + Jews who believe in Jesus = Israel = the church. Replacing them with unbelieving Jews or Martians or anyone else is Replacement Theology 101.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I have read it, and I'm already familiar with the scriptures, but will be reading it again as I respond to your post:


I'm shortening it, because I know what you're talking about, and I'm familiar with the scriptures - and I do not disagree with you, so far.

I agree 100%. The promise is not dependent on the faithfulness of Abraham's descendants, but on the faithfulness of God, because He unilaterally (and without Abraham even soliciting it), promised it to Abraham (not to his posterity - but the promise included his posterity, which is why it was inherited by Jesus as the promised seed through whom all the nations of the earth are blessed, which God promised to Abraham).

And God sealed it by covenant - a covenant which did not require both parties to make promises of value (unlike the law), but the promises are dependent on God alone. God alone passed through the pieces when He made the covenant with Abraham.

In fact I'll add to what you say, with a question regarding this:

The law which came 430 years later, that promises blessing and occupation of the land IF Israel are obedient and faithful, but curses and exile from the land if they are unfaithful and disobedient, does not annul the promises to Abraham or the Abrahamic Covenant:

So (QUESTION): Why did God add a demand in the law 430 years later that required both parties in the covenant of law to make promises of value to one another, in order for Israel to inherit a promise that was unconditional, and which was made to Abraham and his seed?

That's a topic on it's own, so I'm not going to give a full answer to it in this post - but bear it in mind.​

If you want, I will answer what I think

Correct. If you read the prophets, God completely cut off the kingdom of Israel. They completely and forever ceased being A NATION (ONE NATION) before God - "the lost 10 tribes" will NEVER be one nation before God again.​

How can you read all the posts where It says God will restore both Judah and Israel and make them one nation again, then claim they will never be a nation again?

And you keep talking about lost tribes. What lost tribes? They were all represented in Judah when they were restored in Nehimiah, However, the nation of israel has yet to be restored until this day.. It does not mean they are not part of the remnant.

Can you see my confusion?

But God said in Hosea and elsewhere that He would continue to have mercy on Judah. Why?

You answered the above question already, in your statement below:​

He said in Ezek 37, He said in Jer 30 and other places. He will remember Both nations. Not just judah.

In fact, In Hosea, God says this
Hos 1: 10 -
“Yet the number of the children of Israel
Shall be as the sand of the sea,
Which cannot be measured or numbered.
And it shall come to pass
In the place where it was said to them,
‘You are [e]not My people,’
There it shall be said to them,
‘You are sons of the living God.’
11 Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel
Shall be gathered together,
And appoint for themselves one head;
And they shall come up out of the land,
For great will be the day of Jezreel!

Hos 3: 4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the Lord their God and David their king. They shall fear the Lord and His goodness in the latter days.

yes, God showed mercy to Judah, As I explained he had to. Daniels 70 weeks. Given without repentance.

Will break this up. Since you are going to show me where you believe i am wrong…

 

[Zao is life]

How can you read all the posts where It says God will restore both Judah and Israel and make them one nation again, then claim they will never be a nation again?

How can you read all the parts of the Bible where it says Abraham will become the father of a multitude of Gentile nations and Israel's 10 Northern tribes were cut off from God forever, and God repeatedly collectively calls then "Ephraim", and Jacob tells Joseph that Ephraim's descendants will become the fullness of the Gentiles,

and claim God's calling of Abraham and promise that he will be the father of a multitude of Gentile nations has to be all about a nation called "the Jews"?

It's such a "Jewish supremacy" idolatrous interpretation of scripture that it's just unbelievable.

And you keep talking about lost tribes. What lost tribes?

The 10 tribes are not ever going to be found anymore because for over 2.700 years their seed have been intermixed with the seed of Gentiles in the nations and today NO ONE can positively identify himself as a genetic descendant of any of them - and even if he could, he would have mixed ancestry.

AND THEY WERE NOT JEWS.

They were all represented in Judah when they were restored in Nehimiah,

And Hosea was not talking about the above in these verses:

9 Then the LORD said: "Name him 'Not My People' (Lo-Ammi), because you are not my people and I am not your God."
10 However, in the future the number of the people of Israel will be like the sand of the sea which can be neither measured nor numbered. Although it was said to them, "You are not my people," it will be said to them, "You are children of the living God!"
11 Then the people of Judah and the people of Israel will be gathered together. They will appoint for themselves one leader, and will flourish in the land.

Why are you deliberately choosing to pretend the above prophecy is about those represented in Nehemiah?

I'll tell you why - it's because you want to continue with your idolatrous exaltation of Jews who do not even believe in Jesus and are not even part of Israel and who end up in the same place Gentiles who reject Jesus end up if they die in their sins.

And you do this while you falsely claim Gentiles who believe in Jesus are not Israel.

God is not mocked. Jesus will correct your false doctrine in due course.

@Eternally Grateful I'm not discussing this with you after this post. The subject has been exhausted now. It's run it's course. Any future post of yours will be ignored by me if it's still about the same subject of who Israel is or about the land promised to Abraham's seed.

Because your views are unbalanced as a consequence of your exaltation of unbelieving Jews and denigration of believing Gentiles by saying that Gentiles are not part of the inheritance and are not Israel along with believing Jews, but only unbelieving Jews who are broken off from Israel, are Israel.

That's why you deny passages such as Hosea 1:9-11 which Paul did not deny when he quoted it in Romans 9.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

1. The temple is already present. It's Christ and the living stones who are indwelt by His Spirit. Israel is the nation. Israel has a temple, made up of the citizens of the nation. The remnant of Abraham's seed ensured the continuation of the nation, and Gentiles have been added ever since. There is now no difference between the nation and the temple of God.​

That is the wrong temple

The man of sin cannot commit an abomination which causes desolation in the temple that is my body.

And also, I disagree about the nation being the same

Paul in romans 11 even separated them

Israel = the remnant (saved Israel) and the blinded in part (unsaved Israel)

Gentiles - all saved gentile.

2. The place where I believe you are making a mistake is because of the answer to the question:

The law which came 430 years later, that promises blessing and occupation of the land IF Israel are obedient and faithful, but curses and exile from the land if they are unfaithful and disobedient, does not annul the promises to Abraham or the Abrahamic Covenant:​

It does not anul the covenant, in you shall all the nations of the world be blessed. it has nothing to do with that covenant. That covenant is about the salvation of all thw world.

It Also does not anul the part where God said and I give you this land. as an eternal promise to all your descendants.. That covenant still stands even today.

But God was not just going to allow them to live there just like he will not just allow us to live here without repercussions for sin..

That is the purpose of the law To Israel.

it also had a separate purpose. to be a tutor to lead them (and us) to Christ.

QUESTION: So why did God add a demand in the law 430 years later that required both parties in the covenant of law to make promises of value to one another, in order for Israel to inherit a promise that was unconditional, and made to Abraham and his seed?​

do what?

The answer lies below:

16 And to Abraham and to his Seed the promises were spoken. It does not say, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, "And to your Seed," which is Christ.
17 And I say this, A covenant having been ratified to Christ by God in Christ, the Law (coming into being four hundred and thirty years after) does not annul the promise, so as to abolish it.
18 For if the inheritance is of Law, it is no more of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by way of promise.​

This is once again talking about the salvic portion of the covenant, not the land.

Why are you finding it difficult to separate the two?

They needed to repent of their unbelief in their Messiah, who is their God. It was their unbelief in Jesus that caused them to be exiled, not their disobedience to the law (Jesus came and died and rose again so that they could be forgiven for breaking their part of the deal in the covenant of law).​

I just go by what God said in lev 26. Also please note. God allowed YEARS of disobedience before he exiled them. And their sin was worshiping foreign Gods.. This is what the OT states over and over

But God always uses man's doings to turn them around to fulfill His own will. So God allowed them to bring themselves back into the part of the land that the 10 tribes of the Northern kingdom was exiled from in 725 B.C (and would never return to), instead of being able to return to Judah, the land of the Jews, most of which lies in the West Bank.

And God allowed the (united) nations to pass a resolution to create the state of Israel in 1948, which prevented the Jews from returning to their allotted OWN inheritance (Judah).

Instead, the U.N told the Jews that they must continue allowing a people to dwell in Judah who hate the Jews, and will continue to do anything and everything they can to annihilate them, and wipe the state called Israel off the map,​

Honestly. I do not understand what this has to do with the Promise Of God. and Lev 26, and the OT prophecies Where God said he would take the two nations and make them one again.

I am stuggling to see the issue here you are proposing?

And God has seen and continues to see how the nations have been treacherous with the Jews, demanding they make impossible concessions with people who hate them and want to annihilate them, while the nations who do not want their annihilation and the annihilation of their state talk out of both sides of the mouth to both the Jews and their enemies.

.. and what I see is it all culminating with God judging the nations in the valley of Jehoshaphat in Jerusalem. The Kidron Valley (Joel chapter 3), but saving the Jews of Israel when they finally recognize Jesus, and call on Him to save them.

I don't want any of the above to happen - especially not to the Jews, who as far as I'm concerned, have suffered more than enough over these last 2,000 years already. But it's all I see prophesied in the Bible. I don't see it working out any other way in any of the prophecies of scripture - Old or New Testament. But I also especially don't want it to happen to the saints in the great tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast, either.



Yes, Christ is the end of the law unto salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first, and also for the Gentile. The seed of Abraham through whom they will be blessed is Christ. They need to repent of their unbelief. Neither the law, nor the broken law annuls God's covenant with Abraham.

Remember, It was their unbelief in Jesus that caused them to be exiled from 70 A.D, not their disobedience to the law (Jesus came and died and rose again so that they could be forgiven for breaking their part of the deal in the covenant of law).​

AD 70 God just completed what he started with Babylon. Israel had never repented. However in Daniel 9. Daniel confessed his sins and his people. So God said his people will be given 70 weeks.

As I said they never repented. they were not restored in Nehemiah, They continued to be under gentile dominion and rule..

70 AD was just a continuation of that punishment

at the end of 69 weeks. (when messiah was cut off) the 70th week was put on hold. It will be on hold until a prince of the people who committed AD 70 confirms a covenant with many for 7 years.

that has not happened yet.

The issue I see is you are not separating the 2 parts of Gods covenant with Abraham

1 part was given Christ. and salvation to the world

The other part was given to Abraham, and him only, and through all his descendants through Issac and Jacob..

Both are eternal covenants, not annulled by the law of Moses.

Both still are in effect today.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, they are two different wills/testaments.

And a New Will/Testament completely replaces an old will/testament upon the death of the testator. Hebrews 9:15-17

That's how wills/testaments work.

No,,
they are two parts of an eternal covenant made between God and Abraham, and they are both eternal.

The new covenant replaces the mosaic. not the abrahamic.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Exactly. That remnant (the apostles + the disciples) went sharing the gospel with the Gentiles and those who believed were grafted into Israel - not 50% grafted in. Not 75 % grafted into Israel. 100% grafted into Israel. God does not deal with half measures.

I disagree

the remnant are saved Israel. there is no need of a remnant if God is completely done with them.

The remnant was not about sending Gods word to the gentile. it was about God keeping his promise to abraham

Jewish not-believers are broken off from Israel. Not 50% broken off. Not 75% broken off . 100% broken off. God does not deal with half measures.

There are too many scriptures that make Gentiles grafted in, joint heirs equally - 100% equally - with the Jewish believers.

And the Jewish not-believers are broken off.

Once again, Your looking at the salvic part of the covenant. I agree with you here, there is no jew or gentile

But we are not talking about the salvic part of the covenant, we are talking about the land..

They are two distinct aspects of one covenant..

You're exalting the Jews above the Gentiles again by saying "2 nations. No Gentiles". It's a lie.

No I am not

No Gentile was promise the land of canaan. Please do not try to accuse me of doing something I am not.

The saved jew and gentile are one body under Christ. it has NOTHING to do with the promise of land given a specific nation..

A small Jewish remnant + Gentiles grafted in = ISRAEL = THE CHURCH. God does not see Jew or Gentile in Christ.

ie, replacement theology. Thank you for showing me I was correct in saying you believed in this.

The church does not replace Israel

The gentile believers and Jewish believers make up the body of Christ. They are grafted into the vine, not the church.

and this has nothing to do with the promise, I give you this land.

Epehsians 2
19 So then you are no longer foreigners and noncitizens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of God's household,
20 because you have been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone.

The New Covenant mentioned below came in the blood of Christ 2,000 years ago, and any unbelieving Jew who wants to be a part of it needs to turn away from his unbelief to Christ, so that he can be grafted in again.

False. 12 tribes, 10 of whom are no longer one nation and were cut off as being a nation before God in 725 BC.

No unbelieving Jews. Only Jewish believers and Gentile believers. Stop exalting Jews. It's unbiblical and idolatrous.

He has not cast off ALL the seed and in Jeremiah 31:37 He said He will not cast of ALL the seed. Paul confirmed this in Romans 9 and 11.

But the unbelieving seed have been cast off.



Those which came against Jerusalem. What if the USA doesn't come against Jerusalem? Will Americans be forced to go up too?


I don't agree at all with the house of Israel (10 tribes) + house of Judah (2 tribes) = 2 nations thing.

Nor do I agree with the no Gentiles thing. Gentiles who believe in Jesus + Jews who believe in Jesus = Israel = the church. Replacing them with unbelieving Jews or Martians or anyone else is Replacement Theology 101.

How do you interpret the passages I have given you multiple time now saying God will take Judah And Israel and make them one nation again, and they will never again be divided into two nations again.


I can not look at what you are saying above and resolve those prophecies concerning the future Because those prophecies become nonsensical. The gentiles were always a part of the body of Christ, even in the OT. They were not separate.

When Jonah went to Ninevah, and they repented. They became a part of the body of Christ (the OT church) they were not told to go to the land of promise, they were Gods people in their own country. (gentile believers)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How can you read all the parts of the Bible where it says Abraham will become the father of a multitude of Gentile nations and Israel's 10 Northern tribes were cut off from God forever, and God repeatedly collectively calls then "Ephraim", and Jacob tells Joseph that Ephraim's descendants will become the fullness of the Gentiles,

Israel, also known as Ephraim, are the same people, Just like Judah is the name of one of the 12 tribes, but is also the name of the southern kingdom.

I showed you in nehemiah where all the tribes of Israel were represented.. do we just skip over this?

As for ephraim becoming the fullness of the gentiles. Please show me this in scripture.

and claim God's calling of Abraham and promise that he will be the father of a multitude of Gentile nations has to be all about a nation called "the Jews"?

I never said this,

Over and over again, I have said the promise, in you shall all nations be blessed. include all nations jew or gentile

And the part that says I give you this land, concerns the nation of Israel.

Have you heard a word I have said? Why do you continue to insist I say things I have never said?????

It's such a "Jewish supremacy" idolatrous interpretation of scripture that it's just unbelievable.

here we go again.. You really want to walk down this rabbit trail? Your bearing false witness against me my friend.. If you can not read what I say, and understand it. then I do not know what to tell you

The 10 tribes are not ever going to be found anymore because for over 2.700 years their seed have been intermixed with the seed of Gentiles in the nations and today NO ONE can positively identify himself as a genetic descendant of any of them - and even if he could, he would have mixed ancestry.

AND THEY WERE NOT JEWS.

So God can not keep his people together?

So there were none of these northern tribes who escaped to Judah as they had not succombed to the sin of the rest of the nation. And they kept their bloodline pure?

And Hosea was not talking about the above in these verses:

9 Then the LORD said: "Name him 'Not My People' (Lo-Ammi), because you are not my people and I am not your God."
10 However, in the future the number of the people of Israel will be like the sand of the sea which can be neither measured nor numbered. Although it was said to them, "You are not my people," it will be said to them, "You are children of the living God!"
11 Then the people of Judah and the people of Israel will be gathered together. They will appoint for themselves one leader, and will flourish in the land.

Why are you deliberately choosing to pretend the above prophecy is about those represented in Nehemiah?

It represents the people of Israel Live on earth when they repent when that prophecy is fulfilled.

Nehemiah just proves that there were pure people from the northern ten tribes that were still living in Judah.

How can that prophecy be fulfilled if the northern kingdom, which was scattered. can never be restored to the land and made one nation again?

Ther has to be an Israel for their to be an Israel restored..

I'll tell you why - it's because you want to continue with your idolatrous exaltation of Jews who do not even believe in Jesus and are not even part of Israel and who end up in the same place Gentiles who reject Jesus end up if they die in their sins.

Thank you for proving once again, you have not read what I said.

Post # 520 in response to your question

@Fullness of the Gentiles said

8. What is the fate of all the natural descendants of Abraham who have died in unbelief since Jesus shed His blood for the forgiveness of sins? Is it the same as the fate of Gentiles who hear the gospel and reject it?

The fate of any person, saved be it Jew, gentile Israel or whoever from the time of adam who rejects Christ is the great white throne judgment, and hell

he who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already.

it does not matter who your parents were

You again are bearing false witness, and not reading what I have said. again, How many times do we have to go through this?

That's why you deny passages such as Hosea 1:9-11 which Paul did not deny when he quoted it in Romans 9.

I do not deny those passages, I agree with them, I also agree with Paul in romans 9 IN CONTEXT with what he was talking about (salvation) not land..

And you do this while you falsely claim Gentiles who believe in Jesus are not Israel.

Spiritually they are Isreal. I have never denied this. Yet once again, You are bearing false witness.

I have been discussing NATURAL or PHYSICAL Israel. the blind in part and the remnant of Romans 11. who God separates from Gentile believers.

God seperated them when he made two parts of a covenant.

A salvic part

and a physical part.

God is not mocked. Jesus will correct your false doctrine in due course.

Well if Jesus wants to correct me he will. You can;t correct me when you continue to bear false witness against me. all you do is piss me off.

@Eternally Grateful I'm not discussing this with you after this post. The subject has been exhausted now. It's run it's course. Any future post of yours will be ignored by me if it's still about the same subject of who Israel is or about the land promised to Abraham's seed.

Because your views are unbalanced as a consequence of your exaltation of unbelieving Jews and denigration of believing Gentiles by saying that Gentiles are not part of the inheritance and are not Israel along with believing Jews, but only unbelieving Jews who are broken off from Israel, are Israel.

That's why you deny passages such as Hosea 1:9-11 which Paul did not deny when he quoted it in Romans 9.

Should I report you again for bearing false witness against me?

You have done what so many people have done before you and come in trying to prove someone wrong, in in doing so. you prove them right, and hurt your own reputation by bearing false witness against them..

I spent the whole day trying to be humble and take my time to repond to you. And you did not hear a word I said.

Shame on you!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

@Eternally Grateful I'm not discussing this with you after this post. The subject has been exhausted now. It's run it's course. Any future post of yours will be ignored by me if it's still about the same subject of who Israel is or about the land promised to Abraham's seed.

Because your views are unbalanced as a consequence of your exaltation of unbelieving Jews and denigration of believing Gentiles by saying that Gentiles are not part of the inheritance and are not Israel along with believing Jews, but only unbelieving Jews who are broken off from Israel, are Israel.

That's why you deny passages such as Hosea 1:9-11 which Paul did not deny when he quoted it in Romans 9.

I changed my mind, how dare you misrepresent and bear false witness against me again.

I have reported you again.

 

[covenantee]

No,,
they are two parts of an eternal covenant made between God and Abraham, and they are both eternal.

The new covenant replaces the mosaic. not the abrahamic.

Untrue. A covenant does not require the death of a covenantor. But a will/testament requires the death of the testator.

Hebrews 9:15-17 does not describe a covenant. Rather, it describes the New Will/Testament.

A New Will/Testament completely replaces an old will/testament. This is seen in the first clause of your own will/testament, which revokes all previous wills/testaments.

Your claim is that the New Will/Testament in the Blood of Christ the Divine Testator does not completely replace the old will/testament, but only partially replaces it.

There ain't no such animal in any jurisprudence of wills/testaments.

Where and by whom in 1,700 years of pre-19th century Christian orthodoxy do you find such an astounding claim?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Untrue. A covenant does not require the death of a covenantor. But a will/testament requires the death of the testator.

Hebrews 9:15-17 does not describe a covenant. Rather, it describes the New Will/Testament.

A New Will/Testament completely replaces an old will/testament. This is seen in the first clause of your own will/testament, which revokes all previous wills/testaments.

Your claim is that the New Will/Testament in the Blood of Christ the Divine Testator does not completely replace the old will/testament, but only partially replaces it.

There ain't no such animal in any jurisprudence of wills/testaments.

Where and by whom in 1,700 years of pre-19th century Christian orthodoxy do you find such an astounding claim?

My comments still stands

The abrahamic covenent is eternal

the mosaic was temporary, and is replaced by a new covenant

the new covenant does not negate or replace the abrahamic covenant, which is eternal.

 

[covenantee]

My comments still stands

The abrahamic covenent is eternal

the mosaic was temporary, and is replaced by a new covenant

the new covenant does not negate or replace the abrahamic covenant, which is eternal.

Your commentary does not stand. It falls before the onslaught of New Testament Truth.

It is antiScriptural and utterly devoid of support through centuries of historical orthodox Christianity.

It is a betrayal of Calvary and the Blood of Christ the Divine Testator, in Whom are all the Promises of God fulfilled. 2 Corinthians 1:20

It is a racialization of God and His Promises.

It is modernist cultism masquerading as Christian doctrine in the Christian Church.


It is to be shunned, scorned, and spurned by all who are of the True Faith.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Your commentary does not stand. It falls before the onslaught of New Testament Truth.

It is antiScriptural and utterly devoid of support through centuries of historical orthodox Christianity.

It is a betrayal of Calvary and the Blood of Christ the Divine Testator, in Whom are all the Promises of God fulfilled. 2 Corinthians 1:20

It is a racialization of God and His Promises.

It is modernist cultism masquerading as Christian doctrine in the Christian Church.


It is to be shunned, scorned, and spurned by all who are of the True Faith.

This thread should be shut down

Two accusers of the brethren who do not listen to the people they are attacking. And since they can not argue against them, they attack and falsly accuse

I do not betray anyone,

If you believe in the name of Jesus, and call on his name, through the promise of Abraham, you will be made a child of God. Because through him all nations of the world will be blessed. If you are a jew and believe, you will be saved, If you are a gentile and you believe, you will be saved, it you are a Muslim, and repent and believe, you will be saved, if you are a Talmudic Jew and repent and recieve christ, you will be saved, If your an athieistic Gentile. And repent and believe in Christ you will be saved. This is based on

1. The abrahamic covenant, In you (Christ) shall all the nations of the world be blessed
2. The new covenant, which replaced the old (mosaic) as it fulfilled it. Through the blood of Christ.

If your a Jew, If your a gentile. If you one of the 12 tribes of Isreal. And you reject Christ. You will end up condemned, because as I told your brother., even though he did not listen, If you believe you are not condemned, if you do not believe you are condemned already. It does not matter what race, color sex or nation you come from, that is the truth for everyone.

I challenge you to prove one word I have said here in this post as false. And I really challenge you both to look inside. And see why you react the way you do to people who do not agree with you. And you come at them the way you do with false allegations and lies.

 

[covenantee]

This thread should be shut down

Two accusers of the brethren who do not listen to the people they are attacking. And since they can not argue against them, they attack and falsly accuse

I do not betray anyone,

If you believe in the name of Jesus, and call on his name, through the promise of Abraham, you will be made a child of God. Because through him all nations of the world will be blessed. If you are a jew and believe, you will be saved, If you are a gentile and you believe, you will be saved, it you are a Muslim, and repent and believe, you will be saved, if you are a Talmudic Jew and repent and recieve christ, you will be saved, If your an athieistic Gentile. And repent and believe in Christ you will be saved. This is based on

1. The abrahamic covenant, In you (Christ) shall all the nations of the world be blessed
2. The new covenant, which replaced the old (mosaic) as it fulfilled it. Through the blood of Christ.

If your a Jew, If your a gentile. If you one of the 12 tribes of Isreal. And you reject Christ. You will end up condemned, because as I told your brother., even though he did not listen, If you believe you are not condemned, if you do not believe you are condemned already. It does not matter what race, color sex or nation you come from, that is the truth for everyone.

I challenge you to prove one word I have said here in this post as false. And I really challenge you both to look inside. And see why you react the way you do to people who do not agree with you. And you come at them the way you do with false allegations and lies.

2 Corinthians 1
20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

You'll notice the word "all" in these New Will/Testament Scriptures.

You'll notice that they refer to Christ, not Israel.

Do these Scriptures apply to the Abrahamic land promise?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

2 Corinthians 1
20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

You'll notice the word "all" in these New Will/Testament Scriptures.

You'll notice that they refer to Christ, not Israel.

Do these Scriptures apply to the Abrahamic land promise?

1. Please look at my last post. and PROVE anything I said was wrong
2. This post is nonsensical. If you read what I posted. you would not ask such a question. Because you would actually know what I believe.

I am not playing this game anymore. If you all refuse to look at my posts and continue to misrepresent me. Then that is on you..

The fact you could not show anything I posted was in error. Well that I think answers my question.

 

[covenantee]

1. Please look at my last post. and PROVE anything I said was wrong
2. This post is nonsensical. If you read what I posted. you would not ask such a question. Because you would actually know what I believe.

I am not playing this game anymore. If you all refuse to look at my posts and continue to misrepresent me. Then that is on you..

The fact you could not show anything I posted was in error. Well that I think answers my question.

Unsurprisingly, you're unable to answer a simple question, which continues to demonstrate the vacuity of the modernist dispensational ideology to which you subscribe.

Its racialized fallacies and fantasies can never extinguish the light of New Will/Testament Truth.

 

[Timtofly]

Nor do I agree with the no Gentiles thing. Gentiles who believe in Jesus + Jews who believe in Jesus = Israel = the church. Replacing them with unbelieving Jews or Martians or anyone else is Replacement Theology 101.

How can you replace all the natural branches with the wild branches? That is replacement theology. Replacing Israel with Israel is not replacing anything. We are not replacing the church with Israel. Nor is grafting branches in replacing Israel with the church.


That Gentiles can be added should not be viewed as Gentiles replacing anything, not even the natural branches. The church is not Israel. Israel who believe in Jesus = the church. You are saying Israel who believes in Jesus = Israel. No, they are already Israel.

Israel who believes in Jesus are now the church.


Now what did happen is that those of Jacob are no longer of Israel. The name was removed. But natural Gentiles do not become natural Israel. They become the church. Gentiles do not become Of Jacob.


Some will argue that the only Gentiles to be redeemed are from Jacob originally. That is not what Paul was claiming either.

No one should say the church is replacing Israel. When you say the church is now Israel that is replacing. The church is not equal to Israel. The church is equal to those in Christ.

No one is replacing unbelievers by declaring them believers. That is a strawman fallacy.

The name Israel was given to Jacob. One would not then say Jacob is now Jesus Christ. That is replacing Israel with the church. That is replacement theology. That is the point of saying Israel = the church, by saying Jacob = Jesus Christ. You may deny that, but that is what your "=" implies. Jacob was literally placed into Christ. Jacob was not placed into Israel. Israel was the name that represented being in Christ, but those of Israel were of Jacob and were in Christ as long as they maintained their belief.

So when Paul states not all Israel are of Israel, he is pointing out they were cut off in unbelief, without explicitly using those exact words. You replace that thought with your own understanding, by equating they are not all of Israel, but are Israel now they are grafted in. Paul started that whole point out exactly stating this point that they were accursed.

"For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:"

He did not start out the point by mentioning all the Gentiles who would be grafted in therefore many were now Israel though not of Israel. As I have always stated they were not Israel because they were cut off. The argument has been made that it does not make sense to say they are not Israel even though they are Israel. Of course not. That is also a strawman fallacy. Paul stated his point by saying he wished himself accursed for his brethren, ie those of his flesh of Israel, not those Gentiles grafted in or back in because they were of Jacob as well.

He was echoing Moses who did the same thing. Exodus 32:32

"Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written."

Moses already pointed out the fact they were in Christ, until they were not. Moses was speaking this as the OT Covenant and Law was being established. Paul wrote after the NT Covenant had been established. The point remains that Israel could be and had been cut off. Clearly indicated in the phrase, not all Israel are of Israel. Being cut off nullifies the point of being of. They were no longer of Israel. The reverse is true of being grafted in. Once not of, they are now of Israel.

That is the context. Now, is it true that Israel is now the church? No. The Gentiles are now the church. And those of Israel can still become part of the church. Paul never states the Gentiles are grafted into Israel. He still maintains they are grafted into Christ. So Paul is not saying they will all "just be saved". He states they will be natural branches, as blindness is removed, the fact they were cut off.

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

That is still future, not in Paul's past. We see the same thing here:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness."

So what does "all" mean? All of Jacob, past, present, and future? Or all of Jacob alive and not cast into the LOF?