Mecca as Mystery Babylon

[Pavel Mosko]

I've listened to a lot of pitches as far as Mystery Babylon in the Bible and I think Walid Shoebat probably makes the best one. Other ones I've heard seem to do their best to shoehorn a side they got a grudge against. I will probably also include a link to Joel Richardson first pitching his book on the basic topic, it's really a series of video describing how Dispensationalist Biblical writers and teachers around the time of the release of the Schofield Reference Bible have largely wandered away from the historical context of the Bible in the near east and tried to make such Biblical prophecy fit other things outside that sphere that is problematic for many reasons.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I've listened to a lot of pitches as far as Mystery Babylon in the Bible and I think Walid Shoebat probably makes the best one. Other ones I've heard seem to do their best to shoehorn a side they got a grudge against. I will probably also include a link to Joel Richardson first pitching his book on the basic topic, it's really a series of video describing how Dispensationalist Biblical writers and teachers around the time of the release of the Schofield Reference Bible have largely wandered away from the historical context of the Bible in the near east and tried to make such Biblical prophecy fit other things outside that sphere that is problematic for many reasons.

Well, biblical dispensationalism was still findsing its feet in the 19th century after being buried during the dark ages since the end of the 3rd century. There was lots of speculation, but dispensational hermeneutic relies heavily on historic usage of language.

Islam cannot be the antichrist or some future IMAM be the antichrist or mystery babylon.

Mystery Babylon's full title is "Mystery Babylon, the Mother of all harlots and abominations on the earth".
The "super religion" of the end times is the mother of all abominations and harlots (false religious systems) And that is the ancient Babylonian mystery religions. The philosophy of Nimrod is still repvelant in som any religious cultures, inclsuing apostate Christendom as well as many false religions.

Islam most likely will become part of Mystery Babylon, but it is not mystery babylon. It is not the mother of all false religions.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Well, biblical dispensationalism was still findsing its feet in the 19th century after being buried during the dark ages since the end of the 3rd century. There was lots of speculation, but dispensational hermeneutic relies heavily on historic usage of language.

Islam cannot be the antichrist or some future IMAM be the antichrist or mystery babylon.

Mystery Babylon's full title is "Mystery Babylon, the Mother of all harlots and abominations on the earth".
The "super religion" of the end times is the mother of all abominations and harlots (false religious systems) And that is the ancient Babylonian mystery religions. The philosophy of Nimrod is still repvelant in som any religious cultures, inclsuing apostate Christendom as well as many false religions.

Islam most likely will become part of Mystery Babylon, but it is not mystery babylon. It is not the mother of all false religions.

Well on Eschatology I usually don't take a side because I learned the truth early on that this Biblical Scholar speaks of.

On your other statements

1) On Nimrod etc. some of your statements make me think you might be a fan of Alexander Hislop's "Two Babylon's" a work that has been thoroughly discredited for a century and a half for many good reasons (spurious reasoning when it comes to the actual facts of history)


2) Certain churches and movements in Christianity are heavily invested in eschatology. It's not like they have "a dog in the hunt" but a whole pack of dogs invested.


3) There are lots and lots of stuff with Mecca and Islam that fit. The Fact that it was the last holdout of the Baal and Ashtaroth cult is a big factor on things like "mother of harlots". There is all kinds of things, I find the badges that Jihadists wear very interesting when it comes to the mark of the Beast, as well as the Madhi etc. There are just dozens and dozens of things with Islam that fit, especially when you fit into the actual near eastern context of the Bible.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Well on Eschatology I usually don't take a side because I learned the truth early on that this Biblical Scholar speaks of.

On your other statements

1) On Nimrod etc. some of your statements make me think you might be a fan of Alexander Hislop's "Two Babylon's" a work that has been thoroughly discredited for a century and a half for many good reasons (spurious reasoning when it comes to the actual facts of history)


2) Certain churches and movements in Christianity are heavily invested in eschatology. It's not like they have "a dog in the hunt" but a whole pack of dogs invested.


3) There are lots and lots of stuff with Mecca and Islam that fit. The Fact that it was the last holdout of the Baal and Ashtaroth cult is a big factor on things like "mother of harlots". There is all kinds of things, I find the badges that Jihadists wear very interesting when it comes to the mark of the Beast, as well as the Madhi etc. There are just dozens and dozens of things with Islam that fit, especially when you fit into the actual near eastern context of the Bible.

Do not know who this fellow on the video is.

I have read Hislop[s book and have several arguments against it, though His premises are true.

I have taught eschatology on the college level for 2 decades.

I have researched many of the "schools of eschatology" for over 3 decades.

Islam is a false religion, but Ba'al and Asheroth are not the mother of harlots. It goes much further back than that.

Babylon under Nimrod gave birth to all the "mystery religions" and all the variations of it that exist today in whole or part. Islam destroys false worship in their lands where Islam hoolds a high sway.

 

[marks]

Islam most likely will become part of Mystery Babylon, but it is not mystery babylon. It is not the mother of all false religions.

It seems to me that the militarized Islamic nations will all have their armies destroyed in the Gog/Magog v. Israel conflict at the beginning of the 70th week.

Leaving not much of Islam to have a sway in the world.

Much love!

 

[Jay Ross]

It seems to me that the militarized Islamic nations will all have their armies destroyed in the Gog/Magog v. Israel conflict at the beginning of the 70th week.

Leaving not much of Islam to have a sway in the world.

Much love!

Marks, it seems that your observation re the Islamic nations places the 70th week in the distant future which invalidates some peoples' understanding that the 70th week has already happened.

We call Islamic fighters terrorists but in reality, they are making a religious statement that their god Allah is far greater than the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and they make a show of this with the public and graphic beheading of Christians and Jews with their videos which are shown on the "news."

When will the nations of Islamic persuasions be dealt with? My understanding that the kings of the nations with their armies that gather at Armageddon in our near future, probably in around 20 years' time, will be judged for their trampling of God's sanctuary and His earthly hosts. Presently after 9/11 the nations are being drawn into being a part of this gathering at Armageddon when Isaiah 24:21-22 will be fulfilled.

God has also promised that, for a time after He beings gathering them to Himself, Israel will have peace from the beasts of the field, i.e. the four winds of heaven and their influence over the nations, as they will be imprisoned in the Bottomless pit for 1,000 years after which they will be released for the little while period just before the return of Christ and the final judgement to separate the righteous from the unrighteous where the righteous will receive there inheritance and the unrighteous will be dispatched into the Lake of Fire which is the second death.

During this 1,000-year period of peace from the influence of Satan and his fellow fallen heavenly hosts, Satan will have his impowered good and faithful servants running interference against the establishment of God's everlasting kingdom and the harvest of souls into God's kingdom after which the Great Tribulation will unfold.

Shalom

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Do not know who this fellow on the video is.

Michael S. Heiser - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Douggg]

When will the nations of Islamic persuasions be dealt with? My understanding that the kings of the nations with their armies that gather at Armageddon in our near future, probably in around 20 years' time, will be judged for their trampling of God's sanctuary and His earthly hosts. Presently after 9/11 the nations are being drawn into being a part of this gathering at Armageddon when Isaiah 24:21-22 will be fulfilled.

Jay, here is the reason the kings of the earth gather their armies at Armageddon.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

The kings of the earth gather their armies at Armageddon to make war on Jesus.

Jesus's armies are the returning raptured/resurrected saints, the bride of Christ, that accompany Jesus.

Revelation 19: 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

[Keraz]

When will the nations of Islamic persuasions be dealt with?

This prophecy in Jeremiah mentions King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon attacking Kedar, Tema and Hazor. This did happen during Jeremiah’s lifetime, but not to the full extent of this prophecy:

Jeremiah 49:28-33 Arise, attack Kedar and destroy the desert peoples of the East. Your possessions will be taken. A cry of terror will go up – flee quickly away and hide in remote places. Hazor will become a desolate place forever, totally uninhabited.

Kedar & Tema= Sons of Ishmael, ancestors of the Arabs.
Hazor = the area of Eastern Arabia, including Mecca and Medina.
Islams holy places will be destroyed, including the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. When the Anti-Christ beast comes to power, he will demand worship of himself, He will claim to be God, 2 Thess 2:4 and also Allah, so the surviving Muslims will believe he is the Twelfth Imam.

 

[Jay Ross]

Jay, here is the reason the kings of the earth gather their armies at Armageddon.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

The kings of the earth gather their armies at Armageddon to make war on Jesus.

Jesus's armies are the returning raptured/resurrected saints, the bride of Christ, that accompany Jesus.

Revelation 19: 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

That is your private understanding, but I hold to a very different understanding which puts Armageddon in our near future, probably in around 20 years from now, and the Gog Magog gathering will probably occur around 1,000 plus years after the Armageddon gathering of the kings of the earth.

 

[Douggg]

That is your private understanding, but I hold to a very different understanding which puts Armageddon in our near future, probably in around 20 years from now, and the Gog Magog gathering will probably occur around 1,000 plus years after the Armageddon gathering of the kings of the earth.

Jay, how can it be my private understanding when it says right in the text...


Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


The timing for Armageddon, I also put in our near future. Some time before the end of 2037. About 13 years away at the most.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It seems to me that the militarized Islamic nations will all have their armies destroyed in the Gog/Magog v. Israel conflict at the beginning of the 70th week.

Leaving not much of Islam to have a sway in the world.

Much love!

Well many of them will be destroyed for allying with Russia. But there is much prophecy concerning Islamic nations and their destiny in the tribulation.

 

[Jay Ross]

Jay, how can it be my private understanding when it says right in the text...


Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


The timing for Armageddon, I also put in our near future. Sometime before the end of 2037. About 13 years away at the most.

Yep, that is what the text states but, the timing of when Rev 19:19 occurs is still a distant future event and happens after Satan is released from the Bottomless pit where he will be imprisoned for 1,000 years.
​

Jay, here is the reason the kings of the earth gather their armies at Armageddon.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

The kings of the earth gather their armies at Armageddon to make war on Jesus.​

Now when Satan, and the other fallen heavenly hosts are judged in Heaven at the same time as the kings of the earth are judged at Armageddon in around 20 years from now, the judged heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth are gathered together and imprisoned for many days, which we are told in Rev 20:1-3 will be for 1,000 years, after which we are told in Rev 20:7-10,: -
​

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

​

will occur.

So yes, Armageddon will occur in our near future, but scripture also tells us that the Gog and Magod army is not formed until another 1,000 years will have past, and as such you are presenting your own private understanding because you have the judgement of the kings of the earth at Armageddon and the destruction of the army that surrounds Jerusalem both occurring at the same time which scripture does not tell us will happen.

Scripture in the Book of Revelation also tells us that the Rev 9 locusts that come out of the Bottomless pit also begins to happen after the Bottomless pit is unlocked after their imprisonment in the pit for 1,000 years. We are also told that the Beast and the Little horn/false prophet also rise up out of the Bottomless pit after it is unlocked after their imprisonment in the pit for 1,000 years.

All of your charts etc and posts are not Biblically based and as such they can only be your own private understanding just like the rapture theories.

Goodbye​

 

[Douggg]

So yes, Armageddon will occur in our near future, but scripture also tells us that the Gog and Magod army is not formed until another 1,000 years will have past, and as such you are presenting your own private understanding because you have the judgement of the kings of the earth at Armageddon and the destruction of the army that surrounds Jerusalem both occurring at the same time which scripture does not tell us will happen.

The kings of the earth are killed, and their flesh eaten by the birds, at the same time as the beast is cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


-----------------------------------------------

Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38-39 will take place right before the 7 year 70 week of Daniel 9. The 7 years are in Ezekiel 39:9. Armageddon is in Ezekiel 39:17-20. Jesus returned to this earth is in Ezekiel 39:21-29.

 

[Jay Ross]

The kings of the earth are killed, and their flesh eaten by the birds, at the same time as the beast is cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


-----------------------------------------------

Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38-39 will take place right before the 7 year 70 week of Daniel 9. The 7 years are in Ezekiel 39:9. Armageddon is in Ezekiel 39:17-20. Jesus returned to this earth is in Ezekiel 39:21-29.

If you believe so. But then again what does the Bible actually teach us about the Little while period after the 1,000 years that the judged heavenly hosts and kings of the earth are imprisoned in the Bottomless pit. The other question is what event comes before the time of the imprisonment of the Heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth? Is that event not Armageddon?

 

[ewq1938]

Rev_16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

To identify Babylon all we have to do is find out who the wine of wrath is given to.

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Babylon literally means confusion. Being a whore means Babylon serves a false god. Scripture says Babylon will be given the cup of the wine of the wrath of God, and scripture also says the one's who worship the beast will be given the wine of the wrath of God so we know Babylon is comprised of all the confused and marked people of the Antichrist. Paul wrote of someone who would claim to be God, elevating himself above God and all that is worshiped showing that he was God. This is a false God, and believing and serving and worshiping him is a false religion, religious CONFUSION (Babylon/confusion).

The whore Babylon is is composed of those deceived by false religion of this false God, who take the mark of the beast.

Babylon is symbolic city and a city is primarily made up of people. Babylon is also a woman, a symbolic woman and a woman in that sense is, again, symbolic of people.

 

[The PuP]

Yep, that is what the text states but, the timing of when Rev 19:19 occurs is still a distant future event and happens after Satan is released from the Bottomless pit where he will be imprisoned for 1,000 years.

Rev 19:19 KJV And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

If the beast is cast into the lake of fire, (before the 1000 years, at the same time Satan is cast into the bottomless pit, ) I don't see that as possible because there is no evidence of anyone escaping or being released from the lake of fire.

Thanks,
The PuP

 

[Douggg]

If you believe so. But then again what does the Bible actually teach us about the Little while period after the 1,000 years that the judged heavenly hosts and kings of the earth are imprisoned in the Bottomless pit. The other question is what event comes before the time of the imprisonment of the Heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth? Is that event not Armageddon?

Jay, where are you getting that the kings of the earth will be cast into the bottomless pit ?


In Revelation 20:1-3, Satan will be cast into the bottomless pit, but no-one else.

Revelation 20::1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

[Jay Ross]

Rev 19:19 KJV And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

If the beast is cast into the lake of fire, (before the 1000 years, at the same time Satan is cast into the bottomless pit, ) I don't see that as possible because there is no evidence of anyone escaping or being released from the lake of fire.

Thanks,
The PuP

Your assumption is that the Book of Revelation is a linear revelation in time, but the reality is that Rev 19 and Rev 20 both have the same starting point in time which is the judgement of the heavenly hosts as the beast is a heavenly host as is Satan.

Shalom

 

[Jay Ross]

Jay, where are you getting that the kings of the earth will be cast into the bottomless pit ?


In Revelation 20:1-3, Satan will be cast into the bottomless pit, but no-one else.

Revelation 20::1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Douggg it seems that your reading of the scriptures is not yet completed and all of the prophetic passages arranged in their chronological order as yet for you to fully understand what you have read.

Goodbye

PS: the King of the earth rise up in Rev 9 and are described as locusts, but then you have trouble linking all of the events in the Book of Revelation into their correct chronological order.